vaping is NOT smoking!!

[USMCotaku]

The only reason I even chimed in is if we have vapers arguing that what we are doing is still smoking.....then we have problems at the word go. A house devided cannot stand. We have to educate ourselves if we wish to be properly prepared to educate the masses.
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

[patkin]

^ Truthfully, I could be way off base, but I'm not sure everyone professing to be a vaper actually is one... but then I've seen a lot in the last two years, certainly changes, and take quick mental notes.

 

[DC2]

I am saying that in this context, there is no distinction between smoke and vapor because in this context the vapor IS smoke. the only way to differentiate is by chemical analysis of the smoke...

That's just so wrong.

You can differentiate by the fact that one smells like SMOKE and the other does not.

The idea that anyone should rightly take issue because it LOOKS like smoke makes no logical sense.
Smoke can't hurt you if you can't even smell it.

This isn't rocket science.

 

[Jman8]

A few more thoughts:

I, like I believe others in this thread, have had similar discussion to the one OP encountered. When that happens to you as a vaper your first or second time, you are normal if you show up a little emotional and unprepared.

I've had situations in public places with strangers where it went the other way, without me even trying. "Mind if I use this device in here?" And person responds with, "that's just water vapor, right? Sure, no problem." And I've had situations where, I had to do a little educating, but haven't really had a situation with geeky chemist who wanted to specify the technical composition of what I may plausibly be exhaling into the air. I'd be very very surprised if any vaper reading this has had that sort of discussion with a stranger in public.

So, not accurate to say we can't influence public perception. In places I've been, I would characterize it as easy. The places that have said "no" weren't saying it because of "we can't tell the difference" but more like anything you want to do here is likely not permitted, other than what we are in business for." Thus, not really a health situation, and just a business looking to establish basic sense of authority. Yet, the places that do allow it, without any back and forth, are the ones that get what we all get, which is vapor is not (cigarette) smoke.

I don't think we need to distance ourselves from smokers/smoking. At least not in an activist manner. Plus, I don't think some of us want to, and I'm not referring to dual users like myself. As I said earlier in this thread, we want it to be like smoking when we are targeting that group with the messages about vaping, but want it to be nothing like smoking when confronted with ANTZ rhetoric. To the smoker it's, "just like smoking, minus the ash, tar, smell and adverse health issues."

"Smoking" to me is an action and while it has the technical, specific, scientific perspective, I don't think I've ever come across that in public at any point. People "smoke" all sorts of things, and enjoy doing so. It's between cool / fun to do and sacred, ritualistic. The scientific part of it, is closer to ANTZ rhetoric and takes away all enjoyment or secondary meaning/feeling that I would argue everyone in public has with it, unless they are spouting off ANTZ rhetoric. The person mentioned in OP, that was scolding the author of OP, was spouting off ANTZ rhetoric.

I do think the science of the physical phenomenon and the behaviors has a role to play in this world, but if that is not tempered with genuine concern for users and understanding of other factors at work (enjoyment factor, ritualistic/sacred factor), then let science stay in a controlled environment where it belongs.

I believe most, if not all, of us here get that a smoker has got to want to quit for vaping to work its magic in eliminating cravings and leading to (ongoing) cessation. And I believe ANTZ simply doesn't get that, and feels shame and blame play a key role in getting smokers to quit. Because the anti-smoking stigma is so popular a person need not be full fledged ANTZ to engage in the shame and blame game to hopefully have their psuedo concerns for an individual be realized (by the user).

 

[CKCalmer]

You should ask what she thinks of all the 'smoke' that comes out of a boiling kettle...

So I guess on a cold, wintery day, everyone smokes. Right?

 

[faile]

I am saying that in this context, there is no distinction between smoke and vapor because in this context the vapor IS smoke. the only way to differentiate is by chemical analysis of the smoke...*snip*

the whole water thing is just a far reach here, grasping at straws to try and prove something, and not very effectively at that. without seeing if it's actually in a liquid state I can't even tell if it's a liquid or a solid from just a still pic, much less if it's actual chemical composition is H2O... what kind of logic is that? it could be many things, but the pics I showed can only be one thing, smoke

How is the water vs. vodka analogy a 'reach', but the smoke vs. vapor analogy isn't? If those weren't still images you'd posted, I could probably differentiate vapor from smoke -- they behave differently in the air. If I could smell/ taste them, again, I could differentiate them. No chemical analysis needed. Same as you mentioned with water vs. vodka-- they look the same in photos-- that's it. That is the END of the similarity. You don't get to apply one standard to your analogy and a different standard to someone else's and then declare yourself right. It makes no sense.

 

[Jman8]

How is the water vs. vodka analogy a 'reach', but the smoke vs. vapor analogy isn't? If those weren't still images you'd posted, I could probably differentiate vapor from smoke -- they behave differently in the air. If I could smell/ taste them, again, I could differentiate them. No chemical analysis needed. Same as you mentioned with water vs. vodka-- they look the same in photos-- that's it. That is the END of the similarity. You don't get to apply one standard to your analogy and a different standard to someone else's and then declare yourself right. It makes no sense.

I can tell you if I were standing 5 feet away from a vaper, facing them, and 5 feet away from a smoker, I could easily tell the difference. Devices would be a giveaway. Smell the 2nd giveaway. Heck, I'm sure all of us could go up to 50 feet away and tell the difference. But non-smoker may have to stay within 15 foot range to be sure.

Whereas if I'm standing 5 feet away, facing one person sipping on water on the rocks and 2nd person sipping vodka on the rocks, I don't know if I could tell the difference, and I've had both drinks in my life. I'd have to get up in their bizness, as if I'm leaning in to kiss the person, to be able to say, "here's the person drinking alcohol!"

 

[turbocad6]

How is the water vs. vodka analogy a 'reach', but the smoke vs. vapor analogy isn't? If those weren't still images you'd posted, I could probably differentiate vapor from smoke -- they behave differently in the air. If I could smell/ taste them, again, I could differentiate them. No chemical analysis needed. Same as you mentioned with water vs. vodka-- they look the same in photos-- that's it. That is the END of the similarity. You don't get to apply one standard to your analogy and a different standard to someone else's and then declare yourself right. It makes no sense.

I could differentiate between vapor and smoke too, but I wouldn't be so surprised if the lady sitting 2 tables away from me in a restaurant can't or won't, she see's me vaping and in her eyes she see's me smoking. one more time, I know it's vapor but to any onlooker, it's "smoke", the general public will see a puff of white cloud as smoke, not because I say so, because that's what they'll see



I say the water is a reach because any one of those pics could easily be water or could be vodka or could be a solid acrylic mass. even if I seen it live I couldn't tell if you were drinking water or vodka. can you tell me which one is not smoking in those pics? why is it so controversial to say that most will see it as smoking? I never said vaping was harmful or said anything against vaping here, I am 100% pro vapor but I don't get shocked when someone thinks I'm smoking. I've had someone come over to me and say excuse me were you just smoking? and of course I say who me? nooo I wasn't smoking, but by that point my vaporizer is concealed. a security guy walks over to me and says hey, you can't smoke that thing in here. I say it's not smoke it's vapor... ok well you still can't smoke that thing in here...

when I don't want anyone to think I'm smoking I stealth vape, no smoke.

 

[DaveP]

It's not really something that causes problems in my life. I've vaped everywhere I've gone in the last 4+ years. If it's a tight crowd I deem it necessary to put some distance between me and them, just as I would when I smoked. I have no problem going outside or down a vacant hallway to vape.

Now, if someone follows me and begins to berate me about vaping they have some explaining to do. I'll educate them.

Nicotine and the caffeine in coffee are close kin. Vaping is but one delivery method for nicotine. Drinking coffee or consuming it in pill form are two methods of ingesting nicotine. Both are stimulants and both constrict blood vessels. They both can cause dependence and we are better off without either. But, don't talk me down about vaping while you are drinking coffee ... I can cover both topics sufficiently and will point out your caffeine addiction and we will discuss both and compare.

Caffeine & Nicotine | LIVESTRONG.COM

Sources

Nicotine occurs naturally in all tobacco products, including snuff, cigarettes, cigars and pipe tobacco. It is the psychoactive substance responsible for tobacco's mood-altering effects, as well as its addictive properties.

Caffeine is present naturally in tea, coffee, cocoa beans and herbs like guarana and yerba mate. It is often added to soda, energy supplements and weight loss products for its stimulating effects and can be found in a number of over-the-counter allergy medicines and pain relievers.

Effects

Both caffeine and nicotine are stimulants. They speed bodily functions and bring about temporary feelings of enhanced energy and vitality in most users.

Caffeine is consumed mainly for its energizing effects. It temporarily fights fatigue and improves mental focus, resulting in improved mood and concentration. It constricts blood vessels to help relieve allergy symptoms and headache, hence its inclusion in many over-the-counter medications. Other effects may include insomnia, jitteriness, nausea and rapid heart rate.

 

[Jman8]

I could differentiate between vapor and smoke too, but I wouldn't be so surprised if the lady sitting 2 tables away from me in a restaurant can't or won't, she see's me vaping and in her eyes she see's me smoking. one more time, I know it's vapor but to any onlooker, it's "smoke", the general public will see a puff of white cloud as smoke, not because I say so, because that's what they'll see

And that's just not true. I have vaped often in public, and people (strangers) that I talk to get the basic distinction. They may not get the geeky chemist distinction, but they don't need to for civil people to get along in public.

This claim that all onlookers are the same, is the error in judgment. I'm sure surveys will come out on this, but in the meantime, go up to strangers in public and vape in front of them, asking them what they think is coming from your mouth. Don't try to lead them in one direction or another, and do a genuine/basic study. I believe many, and pretty much most, will believe it is not smoke. I think some will, but it will be a minority.

 

[turbocad6]

I like your idea of testing, I was thinking something similar, but put 2 vapors, 2 smokers and 2 people drinking water or vodka all with there backs facing you, and ask onlookers how many of those 6 people over there are smoking? I'm thinking most would say 4, not 2

 

[Ed_C]

Are they vaping with cig-a-likes or a big ole mod?

 

[turbocad6]

sub ohm baby, who's gonna say that's not smoke

 

[Ed_C]

Really, I live on the Missouri/Arkansas border and I have people come up to me and ask what I'm vaping, all the time. I've never had anyone think I was smoking. Not to say that doesn't happen, it just hasn't happened to me yet.

 

[DaveP]

I like your idea of testing, I was thinking something similar, but put 2 vapors, 2 smokers and 2 people drinking water or vodka all with there backs facing you, and ask onlookers how many of those 6 people over there are smoking? I'm thinking most would say 4, not 2

You are probably right. Smoke and vapor look alike. One stinks and the other doesn't, but you can't pinpoint the source unless you can isolate the 4 or them and look or sniff.

With my back to them, I'd have to lean back and blow it upward for them to see the vapor. I'm blowing it down my shirt to prevent that.

The smokers would get the hit first. They are stinking up the joint and have a burning coal on the end of their cigarette. The drinkers probably wouldn't care. After two, they are mellowed out.

Satire aside, I haven't had anyone accost me over vaping. They look and see my mod and immediately know it's not a burning tobacco product. They didn't smell anything that made them think it was.

Right now, there aren't that many vapers who use their mods in public. I'd have noticed. I live in a small metropolitan area of about 360,000 in a four county area. There are vape shops. Just the other day my wife and I sat down at Mrs Winners with our morning coffee and steak biscuit while out shopping. I set my Provari upright on the table and a guy across the room pointed, laughed, and then pointed to his friend who held up his Vmax. We had a nice conversation. It was one of very few times I have encountered another vaper. If I had hidden my vape, that conversation wouldn't have happened.

Like I said uptopic, we all need to be polite in our vaping and as more people switch that will be more important. If I don't know many vapers, then the general public knows almost none. 18% of the population still smokes cigarettes. If the FDA doesn't try to kill it, then many more will follow especially if the FDA and the CDC finally reveal that it's a benign activity. If there's something terrible (and truthful) that we haven't been told, then I welcome that, too.

 

[USMCotaku]

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around "I can't tell which is water or which is vodka in those pictures....so you can't use those to state your case. But see how I'm right because you can't tell me which one of my pictures is the vaper?" Um..........k?
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

[USMCotaku]

A favored quote I stole from a relative: never suspect malice when stupidity will suffice.
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

 

[Ed_C]

A favored quote I stole from a relative: never suspect malice when stupidity will suffice.
Sent from my RM-820_nam_att_100 using Tapatalk

Love that one!

 

[jpargana]

you are talking about harm. I have already said that I know vaping is a much safer, healthier alternative.

I am not talking about harm, I am talking about addiction.

Well, you should base your opinions on harm. Do you realise the general public does not give a rat's behind about "addiction"? The public's concern is about harm, SHS, disease and so on?

When you claim in public that "I have not really quit smoking", while holding a PV in your hand, the first thing the uninformed public will think is HARM. You will be planting the first seed of misinformation in their minds, getting them ready to believe the "It may well be worse than smoking" lie spread by the ANTZ's.

And just like the ANTZ's, you seem to be moving the goalposts here. "Addiction" is the problem now. As long as we have the "addiction", we are to be considered "smokers". Even if we use the patch/gum for years, and had not a single cigarrete for that time, we are still "smokers", right? Because we are "addicted"...

(...)
you can not substitute one addiction for another and then proudly call yourself a quitter... you are only kidding yourself. you can say I have quit # but I instead now *, that's fine, but to just say I have quit # insinuates that you have actually beaten that addiction, you haven't, you have just substituted it with *... this is not my perception this is public perception.
(...)

Well, sorry, it IS your perception. The public is generally NOT like that. Want an example? Most non-smokers will congratulate an EX-smoker who is on the patch/gum for QUITTING smoking. To them, the guy is no longer SMOKING, even if he SUBSBITUTES his "addiction" for years.
Also, I myself have been congratulated for quitting smoking by non-smoking people, who have seen me fail in the past with NRT's. To them, I have finally quit smoking, after I found something that, unlike NRT's, worked for me.

Ironically, those non-smoking people would find it odd if I claimed that "I have not really quit smoking". ("What do you mean? Of course you have! Have you been smoking lately?")

Non-smokers would find that claim as odd. Some vapers will not...!

(...)
the general population will always equate vaping with smoking regardless of what spin you put on things.

educating the public that this form of smoking is relatively harmless I can agree with, but trying to convince the general public that this is not smoking? yeah, good luck with that

No, it won't, unless we, of all people, keep giving them the WRONG idea. The "spin" you speak of, is being attempted by ANTZ's, by trying to equate vaping and smoking as the SAME thing. By stating that it is NOT, we are not "putting a spin" on anything. We are just telling the misinformed public the TRUTH, to counter the "spin" put forth by ANTZ's who want the general public to look at both vapers and "nicotine addicts" (Ex NRT's) with the same disrespect as they already look at smokers. Because, once again, in the public's mind, this is about HARM.

And sorry, but I must say this: by your stated opinions, you are only helping them. You are entitled to your opinions, of course, just like they are entitled to theirs... still does not change the fact that you´re helping them.


ETA:

#75

"I know many here want to believe that vaping is not the same as smoking, and of course it is not the same at all, but it is also not the same as quitting, it is a substitute for smoking and honestly I believe that most here if they had all vaporizers suddenly unavailable to them would wind up going back to smoking... if you can honestly say to yourself that you would never go back to smoking even if you couldn't vape and really mean it, then I'd shake your hand and say congrats on quitting, until then you are substituting and that's perfectly fine..."

1) So, it is NOT smoking, but it is NOT quitting either? As opposed to what? Either we smoke, or we don't. What's the rationale behind telling people that "I do not smoke, but alas, I have not quit smoking either" ?

2) I have said previously that I most probably would not return to smoking, and I meant it (#97). Does that make me a non-smoker in you dictionary?
But I cannot predict the future. When I was young, I used to tell people I would not start to smoke. So, if vaping disappears, and contrary to my beliefs, I end up smoking in the FUTURE, does that make me a smoker NOW? Was I already a smoker when I was young, and told other people I would not start smoking?

 

[faile]

Very well put, jpargana, thank you!