Vaping...More harm then good? For me yes...Im done!!!!!!

[shanagan]

The 'majority' as pertaining to what I posted could be 50% +1, although I have no doubt that the numbers who don't have an allergy to PG or VG are higher than that. So i'm not saying that you and the OP are the only ones for whom vaping is 'not for them', I apologise if it sounded that way.
But I have absolutely no doubt that there are many more who see vaping as pleasurable than those who have an adverse reaction.
To say that "ecigarettes may be far from safe" may apply to a minority, but for many they are far safer than smoking. Of that I have zero doubt. Cigarettes are definitely far from safe. Chantix is far from safe. For me, it's about levels of risk rather than absolute risk. In other words, i'm happy to decrease the risk. I don't expect to eliminate it all together.

I think what many here are trying to get across is that we don't really know yet if this is truly a reduced harm alternative. We want it to be, we expect it to be, and honestly, we just hope that it is harm-reduction - but shutting down any discourse on possible side effects helps no one (not saying that you are). Ideally, it serves the community better if we look at these devices/juices with a critical eye. In the meantime, I think we would all do well to remember that just because "I" experience something does not mean "you" will experience the same. Each humans body is the ultimate variable. And IMO only, we should all leave a bit of room for doubt whether they are "safer."

As in the excellent post above, both statements can be true at once: John quit smoking by eating cheese instead of smoking and feels much better overall. John is developing high cholesterol which may pose health risks down the line.

 

[yvilla]

Arrrgh!

The thing is, shanagan, we do, really, know that ecigs are far, far safer than smoking cigarettes.

Vapor contains not one substance that is not already found in cigarette smoke.

And vapor fails to contain, literally, thousands upon thousands of the known and unknown subtances and toxins that are found in cigarette smoke.

Thus, it does not take a science degree to know that inhaling vapor instead of smoke in fact involves less risk of harm. That is the essence of "harm reduction".

You want science though, you want doctors? You need not even go to the multitude of doctors and experts who actively and loudly support ecig use as a harm reduction alternative to smoking, and there are indeed many - among them doctors like Siegel, Nitzkin, Rodu, Phillips, Laugesen, Payne, Whelan, Barnes, other scientists and tobacco control experts like Bergen, Heavner, Sweanor, Balin, and many more.

Too browbeaten by the rabid quit or die, anti-smoker, anti-nicotine, anti-anything that even resembles smoking propaganda machine to really listen to those doctors? Because they are already in favor of ecigs as something that has the potential to save the lives of millions? Then go to the establishment agencies, go to the ecig's enemies, and see what they have to say about the risks of substances like PG and nicotine, the two main components of much eliquid.

For example:

The EPA, on PG's approval for use for over 60 years as an air disinfectant in hospitals, restaurants, mass transportation facilities: "Upon reviewing the available toxicity information, the Agency has concluded that there are no endpoints of concern for oral, dermal, or inhalation exposure to propylene glycol and dipropylene glycol".
(And 79 more pages of information on why PG got reapproved for such uses by the EPA in 2006, at http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/reregistration/REDs/propylene_glycol_red.pdf)

The federal government, FDA, the alphabet groups and big pharma, all pushing "proven safe and effective" nicotine replacement products:
Smokefree.gov: Medications to Help You Quit
Nicotine Facts-Myths Surrounding Nicotine Effects
FDA 101: Smoking Cessation Products
http://www.smokefree.gov/pubs/MythsaboutNRTFactSheet.pdf
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=4615

New York State, one state with some legislators still trying to ban sales of ecigs, similarly on the positives of nicotine replacement:
http://www.oasas.state.ny.us/admed/documents/TobaccoMyths.pdf
Health Commissioner Petitions FDA to Make Over-the-Counter Nicotine Therapies as Easy to Buy as Cigarettes

And there are plenty more resources than those, by the dozens. Nicotine is "proven safe and effective" when being pushed for delivery in the form of an FDA approved and patented pharmaceutical product. It is a "toxic poison" only when being excoriated by the rabid antis for being present in such products as ecigs and smokeless tobacco.

Bottom line, based on the known composition of eliquid and basic science, you do not need to rule out every and any conceivably possible risk of something that may or may not surface after 10 or 25 years of vaping - which I agree we don't know today - to know unequivocally, today, that inhaling ecig vapor is less risky and less harmfull than smoking cigarettes.

 

[stillalive]

I think the question is not so much "is vaping safer than smoking?" but rather "how much safer is vaping than smoking?" It might even be, "how much safer is not vaping than vaping?" Because vaping is absolutely, guaranteed much safer than smoking, but we don't know how much vaping or chewing nicorette for 25 years will affect someone. Time will tell!

 

[Afterburner]

If vaping is "far, far, far + 1000" safer than smoking then the side effect profile really should be a lot more benign, especially at this early stage.

Other side effects that I experienced myself and never even thought to associate with vaping and didn't list here I've since come across in other threads- such as eyelid twitching, something which feels like a little like a vein vibrating under the eyelid.

Also indigestion, something which I never experienced before even while smoking (if I remember correctly) and which I associated with something else (a supplement) before remembering that I was taking the supplement long before vaping without problems.

Maybe it's because I am an European but I am skeptical about allergies and their supposed prevalence. Round these parts we consider many of them to be psychosomatic in origin.

I remain fairly, though not fully, convinced that the side effects I experienced were due to the mechanics of vaping itself, along with some of the ingredients.

Lungs may be designed to filter air effectively but whether they are designed to, are even capable of filtering, close and continual inhalations of chemical-loaded vapour is something that no one knows yet no matter how loudly they proclaim the fact.

Personally I believe nicotine itself to be a relatively benign substance yet the various extant modes of delivery into the body certainly appears to cause problems.

There are already reports of increased levels of throat and mouth cancer in long term users of nicorette.

 

[shanagan]

yvilla, I'm not going to argue with you, but I respectfully assert my right to disagree. Until we have longterm data, none of us knows it's safer, only that it appears to be safer in the short-term. And I have to say that I find it somewhat disingenuous that you would completely ignore the other major ingredient - flavorings - in your post.

 

[yvilla]

Disingenuous? No, I don't think so. Flavoring is not a "major" ingredient. It is present in eliquid as a very small percentage of the whole. It is not even a necessary ingredient.

And, even more importantly, in keeping with the whole crux of our disagreement - the issue as you framed it was not knowing whether ecigs are safer than cigarettes, or "truly a reduced harm alternative". Again I say - flavoring is also in cigarettes. A bunch of flavorings. But what is NOT in ecigs are the thousands of known toxins and other chemicals in smoke.

I'm afraid it may be as simple as people not understanding the meaning of the term, or the concept of, "harm reduction".

http://www.tobaccoharmreduction.org/faq/harmreduction.htm

http://www.tobaccoharmreduction.org/faq/ecigs.htm

 

[PlanetScribbles]

Just for the record, I experienced the eyelid twitching and indigestion as a smoker.

 

[DataPhreak]

I think what many here are trying to get across is that we don't really know yet if this is truly a reduced harm alternative. We want it to be, we expect it to be, and honestly, we just hope that it is harm-reduction - but shutting down any discourse on possible side effects helps no one (not saying that you are). Ideally, it serves the community better if we look at these devices/juices with a critical eye. In the meantime, I think we would all do well to remember that just because "I" experience something does not mean "you" will experience the same. Each humans body is the ultimate variable. And IMO only, we should all leave a bit of room for doubt whether they are "safer."

As in the excellent post above, both statements can be true at once: John quit smoking by eating cheese instead of smoking and feels much better overall. John is developing high cholesterol which may pose health risks down the line.

This is something that I think we can all get behind. Any and all possible side effects do need to be recorded. I don't know if the OP is still around, but you may want to email Dr. Seigel with your story, and anyone else who has experienced side effects from vaping. (Euphoria not included.)

 

[Afterburner]

Don't think anybody is saying that other options are unequivocally safe. The below finding, which was widely reported on, has probably been posted before but it's worth repeating.

div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited {color:#06c;}Nicotine chewing gum, lozenges and inhalers designed to help people to give up smoking may have the potential to cause cancer, research has suggested.

Scientists have discovered a link between mouth cancer and exposure to nicotine, which may indicate that using oral nicotine replacement therapies for long periods could contribute to a raised risk of the disease. A study funded by the Medical Research Council, led by Muy-Teck Teh, of Queen Mary, University of London, has found that the effects of a genetic mutation that is common in mouth cancer can be worsened by nicotine in the levels that are typically found in smoking cessation products.

The results raise the prospect that nicotine, the addictive chemical in tobacco, may be more carcinogenic than had previously been appreciated.

'Cancer risk of nicotine gum and lozenges higher than thought' - Times Online

Used to use sublingual tablets myself (not because I missed smoking- had been off them years at that stage but rather because nicotine itself offers some mild psychological benefits) before taking up vaping.

Vaping offered some intriguing possibilities at first glance- replicating the experience of smoking while delivering nicotine. Also largely bypassing the mouth and throat unlike the others. (It seems the mouth is quite sensitive in this respect- even mouthwashes containing alcohol have been shown to increase the risk of mouth and throat cancer).

With two brothers and a sister who still smoke heavily (one has started vaping but hasn't switched completely) no one would be happier than me if vaping turns out to be fine.

 

[Afterburner]

The 'majority' as pertaining to what I posted could be 50% +1, although I have no doubt that the numbers who don't have an allergy to PG or VG are higher than that. So i'm not saying that you and the OP are the only ones for whom vaping is 'not for them', I apologise if it sounded that way.
But I have absolutely no doubt that there are many more who see vaping as pleasurable than those who have an adverse reaction.
To say that "ecigarettes may be far from safe" may apply to a minority, but for many they are far safer than smoking. Of that I have zero doubt. Cigarettes are definitely far from safe. Chantix is far from safe. For me, it's about levels of risk rather than absolute risk. In other words, i'm happy to decrease the risk. I don't expect to eliminate it all together.

Have you not even experienced a sore throat, or did you attribute this to smoking? Somehow, I get the impression that a sore throat appears to be a fairly common occurrence, which, at the very least, indicates an aggravated response.

I can't say that I have "zero doubt" at this stage that ecigs are "far safer" than smoking. I would love them to be. But responses such as the below posted only earlier today on another thread should, at the least, give one pause for thought:

I have a problem! Been vaping for 2 years without any problems, then...BAM!, I just lost my voice on March 25. I remember having a sore throat, so I chalked it up to a viral infection and thought it would go away in a week or so. At 2 weeks, I was only marginally better and getting worried, so I went to an ENT doc for a checkup. He felt my neck for any sign of lumps or abnormalities and did a larangyscopy. Everything looked normal. He said it's nothing to worry about and should clear up soon. There was improvement at the 3 week mark, so I thought I was in the clear. Well, today, I realized I was wrong. It got significantly worse

 

[shanagan]

Disingenuous? No, I don't think so. Flavoring is not a "major" ingredient. It is present in eliquid as a very small percentage of the whole. It is not even a necessary ingredient.

And, even more importantly, in keeping with the whole crux of our disagreement - the issue as you framed it was not knowing whether ecigs are safer than cigarettes, or "truly a reduced harm alternative". Again I say - flavoring is also in cigarettes. A bunch of flavorings. But what is NOT in ecigs are the thousands of known toxins and other chemicals in smoke.

I'm afraid it may be as simple as people not understanding the meaning of the term, or the concept of, "harm reduction".

Tobacco harm reduction. (tobaccoharmreduction.org)

Electronic cigarettes. (tobaccoharmreduction.org)

I understand the concept perfectly well, thank you. I think, though, it is possible to reduce your chance of harm from one disease (ie, cancer or pulmonary disease) while opening yourself up to other as of yet unproven concerns.

At any rate, it is pointless for you and I to continue this discussion if you will not allow that flavorings are a major component, whether they are necessary or not, and they are inhaled in a completely different manner than through a combustible product when they are simply warmed and inhaled. I just don't feel this brand of zealotry furthers the discussion. I understand and envy your passion, you are lucky to be where you're at, and I will leave it at that.

Peace.

 

[Avanna]

I originally posted that I too, thought I was having a reaction to e-cigs.

But considering I was reading this thread and not reading the whole story, I decided to find some info regarding reactions from not smoking cigarettes before e-cigs existed. I found that the same reactions that I was complaining about were found on those quit-smoking websites. Also, I found that giving it another month ironed out many of my "symptoms".

I'm not saying I will definitely not keep my vaping in check and at a minimum, I will. I'm just saying that perhaps I was being a bit of a hypochondriac and not fully doing my research in other places. It was nice to read that I wasn't alone in my symptoms and from posts made way back from people in early 2000. Those first few months after quitting smoking definitely can run one's head around. Now if I were only just as concerned about my health during those last 10 years of smoking!

I've also taken up some advice from others and have been doing the nettie pot routine daily for my sinuses. I must say, it's a bit intimidating at first also, but I'm feeling quite terrific now and still vaping! And concentrating on feeling good, not bad, has done the most good of all. I've never completed the Spring cleaning, garage and the gardening so fast as this year.

So for me, the trick was to give it some time (as others suggested) and then, all things, including vaping, in moderation. I apologize for being a bit paranoid a couple weeks ago myself.

 

[Afterburner]

I originally posted that I too, thought I was having a reaction to e-cigs.

But considering I was reading this thread and not reading the whole story, I decided to find some info regarding reactions from not smoking cigarettes before e-cigs existed. I found that the same reactions that I was complaining about were found on those quit-smoking websites. Also, I found that giving it another month ironed out many of my "symptoms".

I'm not saying I will definitely not keep my vaping in check and at a minimum, I will. I'm just saying that perhaps I was being a bit of a hypochondriac and not fully doing my research in other places. It was nice to read that I wasn't alone in my symptoms and from posts made way back from people in early 2000. Those first few months after quitting smoking definitely can run one's head around. Now if I were only just as concerned about my health during those last 10 years of smoking!

I've also taken up some advice from others and have been doing the nettie pot routine daily for my sinuses. I must say, it's a bit intimidating at first also, but I'm feeling quite terrific now and still vaping! And concentrating on feeling good, not bad, has done the most good of all. I've never completed the Spring cleaning, garage and the gardening so fast as this year.

So for me, the trick was to give it some time (as others suggested) and then, all things, including vaping, in moderation. I apologize for being a bit paranoid a couple weeks ago myself.

Actually the symptoms described are not all from quitting smoking as my own and this poster's experience make quite clear:

ive been vaping for 2 months now and noticed that I have been short of breath with a tightness in my chest, I never smoked cigs i chewed copenhagen for 15 years, thought this was a safer alternative but this shortness of breath thing gots me worried, I love vaping but if it means not b n able to breath Im going to have to quit this and give the nic gum a go......................we are all kind of like guinee pigs on this e cig thing...................I thought my weight lifting supplements were bad

Hypochondria is one thing. Clear objective, unmistakable symptoms are another, especially when they require treatment, as has been the case of quite a number of unfortunate posters here, some of whom have no idea yet whether or not they will ever recover fully.

 

[Avanna]

Actually the symptoms described are not all from quitting smoking as my own and this poster's experience make quite clear:



Hypochondria is one thing. Clear objective, unmistakable symptoms are another, especially when they require treatment, as has been the case of quite a number of unfortunate posters here, some of whom have no idea yet whether or not they will ever recover fully.

I honestly don't know, but I thought I should clarify that I did go and read up after I originally posted my symptoms, believing it was from vaping. The truth is, I did find the exact same complaints from smokers who just quit, like myself. So I felt remiss if I didn't come back to give a follow-up.

I truly do feel for those who have any type of ill-effects from vaping as I believe that vaping is the reason quitting smoking was so easy for me. But on the other hand, I'm sure others won't be as lucky as I was with the overall experience. I suppose the best advice for anyone about anything would be, if you get a reaction of any kind, common sense would say put it down and stay away.

I am lowering my vaping time and the goal now is to eliminate that completely, too. I have no desire to keep a zero nicotine habit as some others do, but if that's their thing and they enjoy it, God bless them.

 

[Afterburner]

I am lowering my vaping time and the goal now is to eliminate that completely, too. I have no desire to keep a zero nicotine habit as some others do, but if that's their thing and they enjoy it, God bless them.

How do you mean eliminate it completely and not "keep a zero nicotine habit"? Isn't eliminating completely equivalent to zero nicotine?

For my part I'm going to put this allergy theory to the test by trying out VG.

 

[Avanna]

How do you mean eliminate it completely and not "keep a zero nicotine habit"? Isn't eliminating completely equivalent to zero nicotine?

For my part I'm going to put this allergy theory to the test by trying out VG.

Meaning that some people choose to keep on vaping, even at zero nicotine. I won't be choosing to do that. The only reason I vape was to get rid of the cigarettes, not because I care about throat hit, clouds of vapor or any of that. I don't. It was simply a vehicle to end smoking, period. And for just that, for a couple of weeks, I think vaping is a great tool.

I just came back to post the follow-up because I think I was a little precarious in my original assumption. I definitely needed to research this a bit more.

In your case however, I would wonder what company you bought the juice from and what type and strength it was too. Sanitary conditions alone in the manufacturing could be a factor. Or it could just be personal sensitivity that has no rhyme or reason. For instance, many swear by Johnson Creek. I cannot vape that stuff at all! But I can put in some juice from Ms. T's Bakery and Wordup E-Cigs and have no problems at all. Or they may even say the reverse; that Johnson Creek is the best and Ms. T's gave them hives. I'm not endorsing either. I honestly don't think anyone is going to be able to point to any one substance and say, "Aha! There's the universal problem!" I just don't think it's going to be as simple as all that.

 

[yvilla]

I understand the concept perfectly well, thank you.

Sorry, but no. Your words demonstrate that you don't.

At any rate, it is pointless for you and I to continue this discussion if you will not allow that flavorings are a major component, whether they are necessary or not, and they are inhaled in a completely different manner than through a combustible product when they are simply warmed and inhaled.

LOL @ the highlighted portion. You do know, don't you, that, even the most rabid anti in the universe would acknowledge and admit that it is the very act of combusting (the tobacco and flavorings and paper) that creates the worst of the deleterious and dangerous and toxic and carcinogenic health effects of smoking?

 

[yvilla]

But considering I was reading this thread and not reading the whole story, I decided to find some info regarding reactions from not smoking cigarettes before e-cigs existed. I found that the same reactions that I was complaining about were found on those quit-smoking websites. Also, I found that giving it another month ironed out many of my "symptoms".

Avanna, I've been posting here for over two years, and can't even count the number of times I've posted urls and sent people to some of what sounds like the same or similar quit smoking sites that you must have found. (I post a lot less lately, now mainly sticking to the news and legislation areas of the forum). But it's nice to see people taking inititative and making their own discoveries. It is quite instructive to see just how many "symptoms" people wonder about, as being related to vaping, that are in fact known symptoms of nicotine withdrawal.

(Including, Afterburner, chest tightness and the sensation of shortness of breath - but I'll let you find those references yourself )

Thanks for posting your finds Avanna.

 

[Afterburner]

It is quite instructive to see just how many "symptoms" people wonder about, as being related to vaping, that are in fact known symptoms of nicotine withdrawal.

(Including, Afterburner, chest tightness and the sensation of shortness of breath - but I'll let you find those references yourself )

Thanks for posting your finds Avanna.

Er... not in my case as a non-smoker. Wasn't withdrawing from anything.

Nor was Aron (quoted above).

Which was precisely the point.

 

[Afterburner]

In your case however, I would wonder what company you bought the juice from and what type and strength it was too. Sanitary conditions alone in the manufacturing could be a factor. Or it could just be personal sensitivity that has no rhyme or reason. For instance, many swear by Johnson Creek. I cannot vape that stuff at all! But I can put in some juice from Ms. T's Bakery and Wordup E-Cigs and have no problems at all. Or they may even say the reverse; that Johnson Creek is the best and Ms. T's gave them hives. I'm not endorsing either. I honestly don't think anyone is going to be able to point to any one substance and say, "Aha! There's the universal problem!" I just don't think it's going to be as simple as all that.

Company I bought it from was just a supplier of a number of different brands.