Vaping Myths: Are we exhaling water vapor?

[DC2]

OK, so steam forms on dust. Who cares for the purpose of this discussion? You are focusing on a completely minute and irrelevant part of the discussion. Especially since most laypersons believe steam to be "water vapor" and use them interchangeably.

Please tell me what getting into this discussion/dissection of "vapor vs. steam" does for the argument that what comes out of an e-cigarette is not SMOKE?

Actually, the main purpose of this thread was to get people to stop calling it water vapor.

Barring that, I wanted to at least feel comfortable being able to tell people that it is not water vapor.
But in order to do that, I personally need to know that is true, and I also need to know what it actually is.

Telling someone it is not water vapor, I would expect them to ask me to explain what it is then.
I would hate to have to say that I don't know for sure what it is, but to trust me that it isn't water vapor.

 

[Poppa D]

Personally I wouldn't call it that way. e-liquid is NOT liquid nicotine (that would definitely kill ya). It's just a solution, dilute solution of nico & other chemicals. When we exhale, there is almost no nicotine in the fog formed in the air, 'cos approx 97% of the nicotine is absorbed by our body.

I was off topic any way. My description had to do with discussing my activity with people who don't do it.

My only point was, a few months ago I would have asked "what the hell is vaping?" I guess I got off topic. Apparently the topic is literally what is vapor, not the whole process of vaping. What do I know about it, other than its not smoke, it works, and I'm not feeling like a jerk for killing the people I live with, just as fast as I was killing my self.

 

[kristin]

Even though water is indubitably a component of it, the grand claim made by mall merchants is that you're exhaling water vapor, period. Would I call that misleading? ... absolutely yes.

You just said it right there. "Water vapor, period." You made my point that it's about what is IN it, not the form it takes.

Seriously, do you really think the anyone cares if it's vapor or steam? Do you think the antis are going to get ecigs banned because they are actually emitting steam, not vapor, as we claim? You may as well be arguing about whether the device color is silver or nickel. No one cares about the color, they care about what is on the inside. What they care about is what that vapor or steam is made of - it is just water or not?

And it DOESN'T make us sound ignorant, because it is common speach for the average layperson to describe steam as a "water vapor." It may not be technically correct, but it is widely accepted use. And the fact that the whole e-cig culture refers to it as "vaping" and not "steaming" pretty much proves my point.

The irony of this whole discussion is that you agree with me that it's NOT "just water" and that is the whole point of even worrying about any semantics. The point isn't whether or not the merchants (or vapers) should call it "vapor," it's whether or not they should call it "just water."

I just don't understand how you think calling it "steam" vs. "vapor" is going to help our cause at all.

 

[Pav]

This is kind of related the the thread I started here awhile ago. Seems to me no one knows for sure how to define it.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...upplier-business-card-explanation-vaping.html

I think it is possibly irresponsible for the supplier to describe vaping this way due to the fact that the FDA seems to be ready to jump on any misrepresented facts.

I am no longer comfortable handing out the supplier cards that say the following.

What you see when the person exhales is vapor, NOT SMOKE, that is made up of approximately 99% water, approx 1% nicotene and some other flavoring compounds.

I simply say that I'm exhaling vapor, or liquid vapor. Using the word liquid seems to be a more accurate representation of what is happening than saying it's all (or 99%) water.

 

[kristin]

Actually, the main purpose of this thread was to get people to stop calling it water vapor.

Barring that, I wanted to at least feel comfortable being able to tell people that it is not water vapor.
But in order to do that, I personally need to know that is true, and I also need to know what it actually is.

Telling someone it is not water vapor, I would expect them to ask me to explain what it is then.
I would hate to have to say that I don't know for sure what it is, but to trust me that it isn't water vapor.

Yes, but is your concern over the fact that it's not really "vapor" or because it's not really "just water?" Would you feel better if people called it "water steam" or "water fog?" Isn't it the "water" part that was bothering you, not the "vapor" part?

If you want a true description of what it is, it's a "water and propylene glycol-based mist." However, "mist" is also commonly used to refer to sprays and may concern people that something is getting sprayed into the room like bug spray. Steam is thought of as hot, so doesn't really describe it and pure steam is invisible, as well. Fog is actually a low-lying cloud. PG-based artificial fog or smoke is what most-closely describes what we exhale, but theatrical smoke is often made with toxic, foul-smelling ingredients and even by burning oils, so that may confuse people, as well.

So, the quickest, most understandable and clear analogy is "water-based vapor." To be most accurate, it's "a water and propylene glycol mist with traces of nicotine and food flavoring." It's basically the same thing that gets inhaled, just mostly PG on the exhale. But it doesn't magically transform into "just water vapor" in our lungs. I cringe when I hear "water vapor," too. "Water-based vapor" at least acknowledges that there is something else in it, yet makes clear it's not smoke.

Health New Zealand refers to it as a "mist" in it's reports, as well.

 

[kristin]

This is kind of related the the thread I started here awhile ago. Seems to me no one knows for sure how to define it.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...upplier-business-card-explanation-vaping.html

I think it is possibly irresponsible for the supplier to describe vaping this way due to the fact that the FDA seems to be ready to jump on any misrepresented facts.

I am no longer comfortable handing out the supplier cards that say the following.


I simply say that I'm exhaling vapor, or liquid vapor. Using the word liquid seems to be a more accurate representation of what is happening than saying it's all (or 99%) water.

Additionally, some e-liquids are more PG than water, so the exhalant would be more alcohol-based than water-based.

 

[DC2]

Yes, but is your concern over the fact that it's not really "vapor" or because it's not really "just water?" Would you feel better if people called it "water steam" or "water fog?" Isn't it the "water" part that was bothering you, not the "vapor" part?

My main concern was on the whole concept of being wrong, regardless of which part was wrong.

I agree with the previous poster, and I will not give out any cards that say what we exhale is water vapor.
To anyone who knows that it isn't water vapor, it makes us look almost as bad as the FDA, at least the way I see it.

I don't like to say anything if I don't feel pretty confident I know what I'm talking about.
And if I am not absolutely certain then I always give a disclaimer letting people know how confident I am and let them worry about it.

Health New Zealand refers to it as a "mist" in it's reports, as well.

Well, fog and mist are pretty much the same thing.

I would be satisified with calling it a propylene glycol based mist or fog.
And then making sure they understood that the propylene glycol is a bonus because it sanitizes the air.

 

[kristin]

Here is Health New Zealand's summary of what is in the mist of a 16mg Ruyun cartridge: "82% PG, 15% water, 1% free-based nicotine, 2% particulates and flavours"

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinEcigBenchtopHandout.pdf

What goes in is essentially what comes out, IMO, so it's 97% PG and water. If I'm understanding things correctly, PG absorbs water, which is what makes the water drops visible when the heated mixture cools when it hits the air. But it's mostly PG. Most fog machines use 20% water to 80% PG.

I can see why comanies started describing it as water-based vapor, though. Saying PG-based didn't help because most people don't know what PG is and saying alcohol-based (which is what PG is) would probably have people thinking they'll get drunk if they inhale it, LOL! And I think because the flavors come in oil-based or water-based, they chose "water-based" mist vs. smoke as the description. I think people and newer vendors saw it described as "water-based vapor" and started calling it "water vapor" by mistake.

I don't know...if everyone was educated about what PG was as we are, it wouldn't even be an issue!

 

[john doe]

There's actually no reason to call it fog, mist steam or vapor when people ask what it is. All the answer needed or generally wanted is that it's either propylene glycol or glycerin with trace elements including flavoring and nicotine.

 

[kristin]

I agree with the previous poster, and I will not give out any cards that say what we exhale is water vapor.
To anyone who knows that it isn't water vapor, it makes us look almost as bad as the FDA, at least the way I see it.

I totally agree with that. One of the reasons I wanted people to stop saying PG is in children's asthma inhalers. I could find evidence that it was used back in the 50's/60's but not in today's inhalers.

Actually, true fog is technically a low-lying natural cloud. A mist can be formed in numerous ways - like from waves crashing on rocks or from an aerosol can. (I've been doing a lot of googling about it for this thread, LOL!) I found out the only other difference between natural mist and fog is visibility. I learn something new every day!

 

[kristin]

There's actually no reason to call it fog, mist steam or vapor when people ask what it is. All the answer needed or generally wanted is that it's either propylene glycol or glycerin with trace elements including flavoring and nicotine.

True, but with the antis and FDA calling PG "anti freeze," a lot of people find PG scary - they find ANY unfamiliar chemical name scary (see: dihydrogen monoxide.) So be prepared to explain why PG isn't dangerous, too!

 

[SimpleSins]

I totally agree with that. One of the reasons I wanted people to stop saying PG is in children's asthma inhalers. I could find evidence that it was used back in the 50's/60's but not in today's inhalers.

Actually, true fog is technically a low-lying natural cloud. A mist can be formed in numerous ways - like from waves crashing on rocks or from an aerosol can. (I've been doing a lot of googling about it for this thread, LOL!) I found out the only other difference between natural mist and fog is visibility. I learn something new every day!

I seem to remember seeing that PG is in my Symbicort inhaler, but I could not document it in any of my others.

EDIT: Upon checking, Symbicort contains polyethylene glycol; I'm not sure if that's a new formulation or if that's what it has always been, but that's what it shows now.

 

[shanagan]

I seem to remember seeing that PG is in my Symbicort inhaler, but I could not document it in any of my others.

A quick google showed polyethylene glycol as an ingredient, but not propylene.

Oooh, great page here from DOW: Propylene Glycol

 

[Pav]

Here is Health New Zealand's summary of what is in the mist of a 16mg Ruyun cartridge: "82% PG, 15% water, 1% free-based nicotine, 2% particulates and flavours"

Thank you thank you! I had read this report before, but missed this. It is by far the most concrete answer I've gotten regarding what we're inhaling and exhaling so far, and cements my opinion on the erroneous info of the supplier card.

 

[Nikhil]

We exhale water vapor with every breath. Not a very well worded question.

A quick google showed polyethylene glycol as an ingredient, but not propylene.

Oooh, great page here from DOW: Propylene Glycol

Ethylene glycol antifreeze has a sweet taste that can contribute to its accidental ingestion or its deliberate use as a murder weapon, as attributed by the many sensational media reports concerning it.

Propylene glycol, on the other hand, is considerably less toxic and may be labeled as "non-toxic antifreeze." It is used as antifreeze where ethylene glycol would be inappropriate, such as in food-processing systems or in water pipes in homes, as well as numerous other settings.

 

[AttyPops]

Anyway, the scientific discussion aside, if you'll let me indulge my arbitrary preference.... I like FOG as an easy answer. Water "vapor" will get the point across, and although not strictly accurate, I like that too. When the study comes out, we can probably say "mostly water vapor" and communicate the idea. Even though water vapor would actually be invisible. Just a ramble from me too.

Quoted: Even though water vapor would actually be invisible. Just a ramble from me too.

Yes, water-based steam or fog is more accurate, however most scientists wouldn't make a big deal over it, since most definitions of steam refer to it as a "visible vapor." It doesn't turn back into water until it accumulates - think about the fact that it is still lighter than air, like a vapor is when invisible. So, steam is somewhere between a liquid and a vapor.

But that is neither here nor there - the point is to make the point quickly to non-vapers without seeming to be stretching or bending the truth.

The truth is, it's not a simple water vapor like fog or steam from a tea pot, as some people say, because there is more in it than just water. From what I have found about fog machines, it can range from 50/50 water/PG or higher/lower ratios for denser or more quickly dissapating fogs.

But the most important distinction is that it is water-based and not smoke-based.

Yeah +1, that's basically what I was saying too... (But you only included the last sentence or two!!!!!) Science aside, expedient explanation allows FOG or VAPOR (or condensate for that matter). I like all of 'em for a quick answer.

 

[Drakos]

Fog is pseudonymous with pollution and I don't like that term. I like water-based vapor similar to what Kristin said.

 

[SimpleSins]

A quick google showed polyethylene glycol as an ingredient, but not propylene.

Yeah, that's why I went back a minute later after I pulled out the prescribing info from the box and edited it.

 

[DaveP]

It looks like no one can point to an actual study of exhaled Ecig vapor.

I like the Ryuan New Zealand study that shows .7mg PG / .01mg nicotine in exhaled vapor.
Ecigarette mist harmless, inhaled or exhaled

Another compiled list of studies. Good overall info sheet.
http://www.zigcigs.com/PDF/Propylene-Glycol-Research-Study-Results.pdf

 

[Pav]

Fog is pseudonymous with pollution and I don't like that term. I like water-based vapor similar to what Kristin said.

I think you mean smog. Fog is naturally occurring.