Vaping nicotine as a never-smoker, why not?

[Mr.Mann]

I was merely taking issue with their "test" for dependency. They go on to state different rates of continuation based on different methods, but the rates of continuation could have been due to different methods delivering different basic benefits to the users. Without testing the effect of discontinuing use I don't see any way they can determine dependence.

Let's say someone does a test related to orange juice. One control group eats oranges every morning. The other drinks a glass or two.

At the end of the test, they come back 3 weeks later to see who continues to ingest orange juice in the same way they were previously tested.

They find that orange juice drinkers were twice as likely to still be drinking orange juice, verses those eating fresh oranges.

They determine orange juice is more likely to create a dependence.

Do you agree with that methodology or logic?

No I don't agree with that, but I also don't see your example as exactly parallel. But I do get your rationale. I'd just sooner use an example of Red Bull vs. coffee.

I am firmly on the side that says a never-smoker is highly unlikely to get addicted to nicotine by just experiencing nicotine on its own either from patches, gum or vaping. Using tobacco itself, not just one isolated alkaloid from it, is where I find the real risks for dependency. There are a few places I've seen where bodybuilders used nic as a stim during cuts (extreme dieting; calorie restriction) and they reported themselves as never-smokers. This is all just forum posting, but they stopped after their cut and reported no dependency issues after using it for several weeks. They used either gum or patches.

 

[AndriaD]

My final day 4 and 5... I experienced such Hell I vowed never, ever to put myself through that again. Interestingly, 7 weeks before, I quit totally within days of starting to vape, and I have no recollection of a terrible day 4-5. But I ended up relapsing after only a week when I returned home to my smoking wife and the temptation was too great.

My very first Day 5... was on the day that ECF went completely DOWN due to some software/server problems, Mar 3-4 2014. Talk about WITHDRAWAL! It took me 3 hrs to make breakfast, just for myself, because I couldn't stay focused long enough to do the next thing-next thing-next thing. I had ZERO ability to focus on anything; after I finally ate, I think I went to bed in sheer despair, and if I hadn't, I might well have smoked. But somehow I made it thru that day; the next day wasn't much easier; ECF was still down, but I had made it thru the previous day SOMEHOW, so I stuck to my guns and didn't smoke. When ECF finally came back up, what a relief!

The 2nd time, after the relapse, it was on day 10 that everything hit the wall; the odd timing of it is why I don't think it was really about smoking withdrawal, but more about the mayhem in my digestive system, post-appendectomy -- it had already been over a month since the surgery, but appendectomy is NOT kind to those with IBS.

Andria

 

[Amraann]

It's a lot easier for teens not to get caught vaping than smoking. The recent poll posted on here showed there are twice as many dual users as there are dedicated vapers...

Yes but does the poll indicate of those who were prior smokers?

I am simply saying that I do not think that never smokers who vape are inclinced to start smoking.

 

[VNeil]

I used to believe that, because it was said here a lot and nobody contradicted it. A while ago someone argued quite convincingly that it might not be true. Partly that was based on the fact that, although it was said regularly, nobody appeared to know where it came from originally. The other part was that vaping had changed. Not so long ago vaping tended to be low powered, with low airflow. You couldn't suck much air through a low powered cartridge so not a lot actually went down into the lungs. With modern high powered devices and huge airflow you can fill your lungs with no trouble. So maybe in the past most of the nic was absorbed in the mouth and throat because that's as far as it got.

I don't know the truth of this. Just saying it might not be the case.

The point of my statement was not to declare some ultimate truth, but to suggest that there was some contention even over the idea of inhalation being more effective. (I always had trouble believing that myself but I have an open mind). On top of that, I have yet to be pointed to a study indicating that nicotine, ingested by itself by a never smoker, is more addictive when inhaled than when ingested via other methods. I can't even find links to studies indicating it creates dependence no matter how it is ingested (except within tobacco).

I have only seen that opinion, stated by someone here who rarely if ever substantiates his assertions. And begins each one sentence post here with "I believe" or "I think", with no basis whatsoever for his opinion. He is free to link to a study or some other convincing evidence. Otherwise it goes into my BS pile with all the other unsubstantiated statements. Everyone is free to weigh his opinion by their own standards of proof, of course.

 

[VNeil]

My very first Day 5... was on the day that ECF went completely DOWN due to some software/server problems, Mar 3-4 2014. Talk about WITHDRAWAL! It took me 3 hrs to make breakfast, just for myself, because I couldn't stay focused long enough to do the next thing-next thing-next thing. I had ZERO ability to focus on anything; after I finally ate, I think I went to bed in sheer despair, and if I hadn't, I might well have smoked. But somehow I made it thru that day; the next day wasn't much easier; ECF was still down, but I had made it thru the previous day SOMEHOW, so I stuck to my guns and didn't smoke. When ECF finally came back up, what a relief!

The 2nd time, after the relapse, it was on day 10 that everything hit the wall; the odd timing of it is why I don't think it was really about smoking withdrawal, but more about the mayhem in my digestive system, post-appendectomy -- it had already been over a month since the surgery, but appendectomy is NOT kind to those with IBS.

Andria

This is scientific proof that ECF is 553% more addictive than cigarettes.

 

[stevegmu]

Yes but does the poll indicate of those who were prior smokers?

I am simply saying that I do not think that never smokers who vape are inclinced to start smoking.

I don't remember. You will have to look at the poll. It should be in the media/news section...
It would seem to be a natural progression, though. Most alcoholics started with beer first. Once the coolness of cloud blowing wears off or they get tired of the work involved, do they just quit altogether?

 

[AndriaD]

This is scientific proof that ECF is 553% more addictive than cigarettes.

Heh... actually to me it was sort of like... when I first got sober, and had to get those 90 meetings in 90 days... if on day 5 and day 6 I hadnt' been able to get to a meeting, I don't really know what would have happened; possibly I might have been drinking again. Maybe not; day 5 and day 6 of not-drinking, I think I still had a hangover from my last drunk.

Andria

 

[VNeil]

It's a lot easier for teens not to get caught vaping than smoking. The recent poll posted on here showed there are twice as many dual users as there are dedicated vapers...

And all that poll illustrated is that long term smokers have difficulty fully quitting. It had nothing to do with teen vapers or any gateway effect. These endless strawman arguments get tiring.

 

[stevegmu]

And all that poll illustrated is that long term smokers have difficulty fully quitting. It had nothing to do with teen vapers or any gateway effect. These endless strawman arguments get tiring.

It showed teen vaping is increasing and most vapers are dual users. Many vape because of smoking restrictions, not as smoking cessation...

 

[VNeil]

Heh... actually to me it was sort of like... when I first got sober, and had to get those 90 meetings in 90 days... if on day 5 and day 6 I hadnt' been able to get to a meeting, I don't really know what would have happened; possibly I might have been drinking again. Maybe not; day 5 and day 6 of not-drinking, I think I still had a hangover from my last drunk.

Andria

So you are trying to put a positive spin on this site .
I'm just having some fun There is a lot of good positive support going on here. The world's biggest Smoker's Anonymous club.

 

[VNeil]

It showed teen vaping is increasing and most vapers are dual users. Many vape because of smoking restrictions, not as smoking cessation...

Maybe we were looking at different polls. I have no idea what you were looking at since you rarely bother to cite.

 

[stevegmu]

Maybe we were looking at different polls. I have no idea what you were looking at since you rarely bother to cite.

The largest group of smokers in the U.S. Is now 18-25 year olds. Given the large %of teens who have admitted to trying or using e-nic, it is safe to assume many vaped before they stared smoking...

 

[VNeil]

The largest group of smokers in the U.S. Is now 18-25 year olds. Given the large %of teens who have admitted to trying or using e-nic, it is safe to assume many vaped before they stared smoking...

Why are all your comments "I think" or "I believe" or "it is safe to assume" with nothing to back it up? Like maybe a cite of an historical chart that somehow even alludes to your claims? That group was always the largest group of smokers since most people started in their teens. And that group would be expected to slowly diminish over the years as some quit while relatively few above the age of 25 would start.

 

[WharfRat1976]

So it's a "neat article" that also said "Addiction is not inherent to nicotine, as is evidenced by nicotine therapy being used to curb cigarette addictions."

It's a site I thought would be of use for having compiled (and is compiling) studies as they pertain to specific health issues. Well, maybe someone will find it useful.

Dopamine enhancement is inherent in addiction. Neat article.

 

[WharfRat1976]

If someone hasn't smoked in 5 years but chews a pack of nic gum a day are they addicted to the nic gum?

No, they are addicted to fiddling with the foil packs of the nic gum[emoji51]

 

[WharfRat1976]

My understanding (of it and other thinking on it) was that nicotine in and of itself is not exactly the issue but the way it is delivered and what else it is combined with that has dependency implications.

So that woukd explain why I quit stinkies 20 years ago but still chew nic gum and vape?

 

[WharfRat1976]

People who were never smokers get just as addicted to chew. What do chew and cigarettes have in common?

DING...OR SNUS OR NIC PATCHES

 

[WharfRat1976]

Nic Patches and nic products are a 50 billion dollar business because nicotine is non addictive by itself......per peer review studies, common knowledge, research and various and assorted studies.

 

[WharfRat1976]

I was merely taking issue with their "test" for dependency. They go on to state different rates of continuation based on different methods, but the rates of continuation could have been due to different methods delivering different basic benefits to the users. Without testing the effect of discontinuing use I don't see any way they can determine dependence.

Let's say someone does a test related to orange juice. One control group eats oranges every morning. The other drinks a glass or two.

At the end of the test, they come back 3 weeks later to see who continues to ingest orange juice in the same way they were previously tested.

They find that orange juice drinkers were twice as likely to still be drinking orange juice, verses those eating fresh oranges.

They determine orange juice is more likely to create a dependence.

Do you agree with that methodology or logic?

Right, determining dependence is difficult. They need "rat to cheese" long term studies.

 

[stevegmu]

Why are all your comments "I think" or "I believe" or "it is safe to assume" with nothing to back it up? Like maybe a cite of an historical chart that somehow even alludes to your claims? That group was always the largest group of smokers since most people started in their teens. And that group would be expected to slowly diminish over the years as some quit while relatively few above the age of 25 would start.

I'm on a mobile device now.

a national study released in December 2014 found e-cigarette use among teens exceeds traditional cigarette smoking. The study also found that e-cigarette use among 8th and 10th graders was double that of traditional cigarette smoking. CDC studies have also shown e-cigarette use among high school students increased by 61 percent from 2012 to 2013.

American Lung Association Statement on E-Cigarettes - American Lung Association

Since vaping among teens has drastically increased and smoking among 18-25 year olds has not drastically decreased, it is safe to assume these now smokers started with vaping...

CDC - Fact Sheet - Current Cigarette Smoking Among Adults in the United States - Smoking & Tobacco Use