Vaping nicotine as a never-smoker, why not?

[WharfRat1976]

No I don't agree with that, but I also don't see your example as exactly parallel. But I do get your rationale. I'd just sooner use an example of Red Bull vs. coffee.

I am firmly on the side that says a never-smoker is highly unlikely to get addicted to nicotine by just experiencing nicotine on its own either from patches, gum or vaping. Using tobacco itself, not just one isolated alkaloid from it, is where I find the real risks for dependency. There are a few places I've seen where bodybuilders used nic as a stim during cuts (extreme dieting; calorie restriction) and they reported themselves as never-smokers. This is all just forum posting, but they stopped after their cut and reported no dependency issues after using it for several weeks. They used either gum or patches.

How to you do "nicotine on its own?"

 

[stevegmu]

How to you do "nicotine on its own?"

Sandra is big into the fitness scene and told me a lot of the bodybuilders and fitness ladies at the gym use electronic cigarettes in the gym and smoke outside...

 

[unixunderground]

Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

This is one of my favorite sites when dealing with any type of supplement as they relate to health implications. Check it out (although it's still "in-progress" and the research is still being compiled). Check the Human Effect Matrix.

That site is huge, so some pages kinda stay "in-progress" as more research becomes available.

Thanks for the link, lots of good reading material. If you enjoy that kind of content, you should definitely check out Nicotine - Gwern.net

 

[unixunderground]

@VNeil
I bring forth the following from Etter 2007 as evidence of no reported addictive potential for NRT or nicotine in never-smokers:

(key points bolded out, as some of you seem to have an attention span much inferior to that of a goldfish, when presented with peer-review research)

There was no report of subsequent nicotine dependence in never smokers who were treated with nicotine for ulcerative colitis, aphtous ulcers and sleep-disordered breathing [18,19,20,21]. The short-term effect of the nasal spray was also tested in never smokers, with no report of never smokers getting addicted to this fast delivery product [22,23,24]. In a previous survey, 0.3% of adolescent never smokers reported past daily use of NRT, but none was reported as being addicted to NRT [25]. In two surveys in the USA, 2.7% and 4.6% of school drug counsellors indicated that nicotine patches and gums were abused by adolescents, but these “NRT abusers” were mainly smokers who used NRT while smoking, and only 7% to 16% of these “NRT abusers” were never smokers [27]. The latter study did not report any case of NRT dependence in adolescent never smokers [27].

 

[VNeil]

Sandra is big into the fitness scene and told me a lot of the bodybuilders and fitness ladies at the gym use electronic cigarettes in the gym and smoke outside...

And... bodybuilders who happen to be dual users have what relevance to this conversation?

 

[VNeil]

Nic Patches and nic products are a 50 billion dollar business because nicotine is non addictive by itself......per peer review studies, common knowledge, research and various and assorted studies.

That is correct. NRTs were invented specifically for smokers. We all know that so I'm not sure why you bother with meaningless straw man arguments. Unless you simply disagree with the facts but can't refute them with facts.

If nicotine by itself were addictive then NRTs would still be prescription only. Unless you can point to evidence that the vast majority of NRT users are never smokers AND are now dependent on their NRT, this line of argument is nonsensical. The straw man arguments here are truly tiring.

 

[VNeil]

@VNeil
I bring forth the following from Etter 2007 as evidence of no reported addictive potential for NRT or nicotine in never-smokers:

(key points bolded out, as some of you seem to have an attention span much inferior to that of a goldfish, when presented with peer-review research)

Great citation. Unfortunately it will do nothing stop this thread from being disrupted by those with an agenda, not interested in the facts.

 

[Ryedan]

Ryedan, I am generally inclined to agree with you on most subjects, but this one I can not.

Wiki page on the chemical/substance sates that nicotine's addictive liability is; High. They also classify its psychological dependency as: High. Now I`m not one to take everything on Wiki as the gospel truth, but my own experience bares this out. Some will claim it is the additives in cigarettes that make it so addictive, and to a certain extent I will agree with that they do modify and increase, if not insure, the chance of addiction, but "I believe" that nicotine is still extremely addictive on its own. My experience is with, as you probably know, cigars. To the best of my knowledge you will not find any additives in cigars, yet, you do find a large dose`s of nicotine.

Yes, I am addicted to love, air, water, and nicotine.

Someone said it above quite well I thought. What if your mod breaks and the only option is to go get a pack, what then? Perhaps a far fetched scenario, but not beyond the realm of possibility that one could find one self in that situation. Without the addiction that possible situation would not exist.

Lastly, I am by no means a health nut. But as I get older, it is becoming more and more a necessity that I take better care of myself. If a person is looking for a boost in life, the absolute best thing they can do is take care of themselves, eat a good diet, and get enough exercise. These three things are all that`s really needed to make you feel like you are on top of the world. Everything else has a come down, some with crash landings.

Well said VHRB2014 . The only thing I disagree with is how addictive vaping the typical nicotine we use is. I've posted my experience a few times but it's been a while and I think I'll do it again quickly.

I smoked for 37 years and was so addicted to it I think it would have taken a doctor telling me that I would die if I didn't quit to get me motivated enough to do it. I tried many times and until I discovered vaping there was just no way. On a difficulty scale of 0-10, where 10 is not possible, it had always been a 10 for me.

Vaping made it about a 7 and I succeeded. I guess all I really needed was a 9.9, but 7 was very welcome. I reduced the nic level in my juices from 18 mg to zero in about nine months and stayed there for half a year. I was not really over the cigarette addiction until I was well into the zero nic stage. I then went back to vaping nicotine for a solid month and then quit 'cold turkey' for a month. The difficulty I experienced going back to no-nic was about 2 on my scale and that only lasted a couple of days. I decided on that number after considering that not being able to have my evening chocolate ship cookie rated around 1.

Since that last month of no nic I vape some when I want, which isn't too often though I will occasionally use it for a few evenings in a row. I've been doing this for the last two years now. I also sometimes leave for the day without vape gear and have no problem with that. The first vape after a 12-14 hour day without is really awesome too, with or without nic

I did that experiment so I would know where I stood with nicotine addition from vaping. My experience makes it easy for me to believe that nic by itself is nowhere near as addictive as smoking is, even for a former long time smoker. I know that it is not at all addictive for me. I know this sample of one does not mean my experience applies to everyone, but I don't believe I'm so unique that I should ignore it along with all the other evidence out there that suggests the same. This experiment is also easily repeatable by anyone who chooses to do so.

I totally agree with your last paragraph. Last year I decided I wanted to make those changes. I changed what I eat eliminating most processed foods and minimizing animal products, I eat every three hours and went back to regular workouts. I've lost 35 pounds now, feel better and have way more energy. We are a very adaptable species. I had a chocolate bar a few months ago, it was sickeningly sweet to me and I used to love them. I never would have thought I would adapt that fast to not adding sugar to food. But I don't worry about having the occasional quarter pounder with small fries, a drink, a coffee or a bit of nicotine. I would probably be just fine with the occasional cigarette and I'm sure I would enjoy it, but I'm not doing that experiment

 

[bluecat]

I don't remember. You will have to look at the poll. It should be in the media/news section...
It would seem to be a natural progression, though. Most alcoholics started with beer first. Once the coolness of cloud blowing wears off or they get tired of the work involved, do they just quit altogether?

Most alcoholics start with a beer dies not equate to a person that drink a beer is an alcoholic. The same argument could be made on vaping. The sad truth is that vaping has been out quite long enough to know for sure. My guess would be no. Yes it is a guess but brought upon by my own experiences with vaping and smoking. I cannot fathom how vaping would be a gateway to smoking. As for being unhealthy... just chalk it up to the one of a million things we do that someone somewhere defines as unhealthy. I got about an hour before I throw the 2 portholes and corn on the cob on the grill. I will have a cold guiness stout and vape while listening to some 70s rock and chilling out for the slow cook. My favorite place to be. Of course my dogs will come join me because they love the smell of steaks on a grill.

 

[stevegmu]

Most alcoholics start with a beer dies not equate to a person that drink a beer is an alcoholic. The same argument could be made on vaping. The sad truth is that vaping has been out quite long enough to know for sure. My guess would be no. Yes it is a guess but brought upon by my own experiences with vaping and smoking. I cannot fathom how vaping would be a gateway to smoking. As for being unhealthy... just chalk it up to the one of a million things we do that someone somewhere defines as unhealthy. I got about an hour before I throw the 2 portholes and corn on the cob on the grill. I will have a cold guiness stout and vape while listening to some 70s rock and chilling out for the slow cook. My favorite place to be. Of course my dogs will come join me because they love the smell of steaks on a grill.

Vaping has been out for a while, but studies have not been...
If teens are vaping in droves now, yet smoking rates for 20-25 year olds have not declined dramatically, it would be safe to assume these smokers started with an e-cig...

 

[Ryedan]

Nicotine - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects | Examine.com

This is one of my favorite sites when dealing with any type of supplement as they relate to health implications. Check it out (although it's still "in-progress" and the research is still being compiled). Check the Human Effect Matrix.

That site is huge, so some pages kinda stay "in-progress" as more research becomes available.

Excellent resource Mr.Mann, thanks for posting it

 

[pennysmalls]

Vaping has been out for a while, but studies have not been...
If teens are vaping in droves now, yet smoking rates for 20-25 year olds have not declined dramatically, it would be safe to assume these smokers started with an e-cig...

It would be just as safe to assume they never tried an ecig.

 

[bluecat]

I'm on a mobile device now.

a national study released in December 2014 found e-cigarette use among teens exceeds traditional cigarette smoking. The study also found that e-cigarette use among 8th and 10th graders was double that of traditional cigarette smoking. CDC studies have also shown e-cigarette use among high school students increased by 61 percent from 2012 to 2013.

American Lung Association Statement on E-Cigarettes - American Lung Association

Since vaping among teens has drastically increased and smoking among 18-25 year olds has not drastically decreased, it is safe to assume these now smokers started with vaping...

CDC - Fact Sheet - Current Cigarette Smoking Among Adults in the United States - Smoking & Tobacco Use

Here is when I like to use real world examples. My daughter will be a senior this year in a 3000 student high school. We live in a very diverse community with mixed races and nationalities. The school ranks in the top 10 every year in the state. We are basically your normal highly conservative city...well we are actually a township. I ask her all the time if any of the kids at her school vape. 3 years ago she would see them vaping. Not alot of kids but enough. By the next week they aren't vaping. Not sure if the cool factor isn't there or what. Last year she saw no one. She always says the kids are too busy making out after school.

I am not sure where they get their statistics. I welcome them to come to our district. There is an east and west for a totally of roughly 6000 10th through 12th graders at the high schools they can make their lab rats.

Just add. At this point she has no interest in vaping or drinking. I have offered her to try both.

 

[Ryedan]

I got about an hour before I throw the 2 portholes and corn on the cob on the grill.

And on a bit of a lighter note ... sometimes spell-check really sucks at doing its job

 

[stevegmu]

Here is when I like to use real world examples. My daughter will be a senior this year in a 3000 student high school. We live in a very diverse community with mixed races and nationalities. The school ranks in the top 10 every year in the state. We are basically your normal highly conservative city...well we are actually a township. I ask her all the time if any of the kids at her school vape. 3 years ago she would see them vaping. Not alot of kids but enough. By the next week they aren't vaping. Not sure if the cool factor isn't there or what. Last year she saw no one. She always says the kids are too busy making out after school.

I am not sure where they get their statistics. I welcome them to come to our district. There is an east and west for a totally of roughly 6000 10th through 12th graders at the high schools they can make their lab rats.

Just add. At this point she has no interest in vaping or drinking. I have offered her to try both.

Maybe the vaping fad wore off and they started smoking, but just not at school?

 

[stevegmu]

It would be just as safe to assume they never tried an ecig.

So it just so happens the large amount of teens who vape or have tried vaping are not the ones who start smoking later? That seems a little odd...

 

[pennysmalls]

So it just so happens the large amount of teens who vape or have tried vaping are not the ones who start smoking later? That seems a little odd...

If you want to twist things to make it seem that way then sure. I can do some twisting too. I'd prefer not to though. I'd rather see facts being shared on a vaping discussion forum, not assumptions or innuendo, especially in this current political climate.

 

[stevegmu]

If you want to twist things to make it seem that way then sure. I can do some twisting too. I'd prefer not to though. I'd rather see facts being shared on a vaping discussion forum, not assumptions or innuendo, especially in this current political climate.

There are no hard facts; just as peer reviewed long tern studies do not exist. The federal government and it's agencies think e-cigs lead to smoking among teens. That is a fact. I do too. I was a teen once...

 

[pennysmalls]

There are no hard facts; just as peer reviewed long tern studies do not exist. The federal government and it's agencies think e-cigs lead to smoking among teens. That is a fact. I do too. I was a teen once...

Ok, so in your opinion a belief is the same as fact. Okey-dokey.

 

[stevegmu]

Ok, so in your opinion a belief is the same as fact. Okey-dokey.

The fact is the federal government, its agencies and many politicians believe vaping leads to smoking. You don't believe that? They are the ones who will decide the fate of vaping...