Are we looking for the word physiological instead of the words physical or mental, as far as the feelings of withdrawal go?
Vaping nicotine as a never-smoker, why not?
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Yes, that is true. I have never, in the last five years that I've been asking, had a student who was formerly a smoker say that they experienced any withdrawal issues. Now, I don't know when kids start smoking these days, but it probably isn't much before 7th grade (when I started). My students are generally from 18-21 years old. That would mean that they probably smoked for a maximum of about nine years. Also, these are university students so that probably changes the actual population (in terms of knowledge and achievement) that they are drawn from, and in 1967 when I started smoking, there was not much discussion on the health effects of smoking. In my neighborhood, it wasn't a matter of whether or not you would take up smoking, but when your parents gave you permission to do so. So, my guess is that kids, especially those headed to university, probably start smoking later than 7th grade. Anyway, I'm not sure it matters. My hypothesis is that it takes a very long time smoking to amass enough habit strength such that 'breaking the habit' becomes psychologically difficult.
I don't appear to be an outlier, for my generation at least. I went to my 40th high school reunion a couple years ago. As I mentioned above, most of my classmates were smokers in high school, and some remain smokers today. I asked those who quit if they had any difficulty in doing so. Those that quit within five, or so, years of high school (7) had no problems quitting, those that had recently quit (3) had great difficulty. Those that were in between (i.e., smoked from 10-30 years, were a mixed bag with those who smoked for a lesser time having less trouble quitting. This, and reading the smoking withdrawal literature has led me to hypothesize that, habit strength is insufficient to cause withdrawal symptoms after about 10 years or less of smoking.
See my reply to Andria that comes immediately following your post to which I'm replying.
You would have had a very difficult time convincing me, back around day 4-5 of my final (and successful so far) quit attempt, that what I was feeling was not physical. Those were my worst days, and they were rather ugly. Yet at the same time I understand that I am not in a position to argue the point. It is quite complex indeed.
Here's my point (which makes the issue all the more complex). All perception occurs in the brain. Unless there is an obvious physical marker, it is very hard to assess the cause of any emotion or feeling. Withdrawing opiate addicts who perceive insects crawling on their skin very much believe that the insects are there and behave as though there really are insects, however, there are no insects. I know that that was an exaggeration because opiates do lead to physical dependence, but the cravings and other hair pulling events that occur following extinction of a strongly learned behavioral chain, such as the smoking habit, are no less real than the insects, and in both cases it is the brain that is responsible for the perception. Think about dreaming. While you are dreaming, you have no understanding that you are dreaming (unless you are a lucid dreamer, of course). It all is real to you because your brain makes it real. [I'm a lucid dreamer, BTW, and I highly recommend learning the techniques that enable one to dream lucidly]. The brain is capable of some really amazing things.
Well, in controlled studies where the only potentially active ingredient is nicotine, there doesn't appear to be such evidence. After all, stopping the introduction of nicotine means 0mg nicotine.
Again, if their brains are convinced there will be benefits, there probably will be. After all, it IS all in their heads
After reading mosspa's thread, contemporaneously with it developing, I mixed up a batch of 50mg juice, just in the interests of science, you could say
I am one of those people that are not into throat hit, and I never was. When I quit smoking I started with 24mg, which was the strongest I could acquire locally. I did that not for the hit but purely for the nicotine, assuming that was what was making me so uncomfortable with smoking abstinence.
I found it (50mg) quite irritating. Interestingly, other than getting slightly light headed I can't say I got any great rush from it, and I was probably down to 10-12mg or so when I first did that. Although mosspa did that with an EVOD type of gen 2 device, I had a dripper handy and dripped it at about 10-14W.
I tried it again about a week ago, just for grins, and vaped it for about an hour, starting at about 25W in a dripper. I used a dripper just because that is what I always use for vaping odd juices, and reserve tanks for my ADVs. It was way too harsh for me. So I think I backed off to about 15W or so and actually got accustomed enough to do it for an hour or so.
I am now down to 1 or 3mg. The 1mg mainly for 25-35W dripping, and my tank I run at 25W. I am back and forth as I use up old juice and too lazy to make 0mg baches of my favs to dilute it down. I occasionally drip 6mg now, mostly old juice recipes I never repeated at lower nic ratios. When I drip 6mg I often find it uncomfortable. Just to say I am really not into this throat hit thing.
That is my experience. I am a sample of one, for sure, but a guy that wants to be way on the left side of the TH curve. When you get your 72mg concentrate you will be able to play lab rat and see where you fall on it.
You actually dripped 50 mg/ml? That's amazing!
"Everyone" is taught that, or would it be more accurate to say "propagandized". Some countries (including the EU I think, either now or proposed) severely limit nic levels to 18 or 24mg. My understanding is that there is a general trend now in the USA at least, away from nic greater than 12mg (it is simply not sold by many shops). When I started a year ago I could not find greater than 24mg in my local shops. Supposedly the new 12mg available max has to do with high wattage vaping, and most people find high concentrations (above 12mg or less) uncomfortable. It is theorized here that since higher power uses juice at a greater rate, the body is also ingesting the nic at a proportionately high rate. But that is all just speculation. Not many people test their blood levels as they vary their vape.
I was told by one local shop that they could not sell greater than 18 0r 24mg "by regulation". When I pressed for details, he could not answer me, and back pedaled a bit to suggest they were some unspecified "guidelines" he had to follow. He may not have been the owner and I did not press. I was just amused that he could not clearly answer my question and since I DIY it was just idle curiosity. I'm trying to explain that there is a huge (propaganda oriented???) bias in the industry toward lower concentrations. And I say all that believing what you do makes perfect sense. You just happen to be swimming upstream against a very strong current
In particular, it makes a lot of sense to vape less, with higher nic, just from an "assessment of unknowable risks" point of view. It is hard to argue with lesser is better in terms of juice consumption.
Just to be very clear, I was referring to smoking cessation attempts, not studies of never-smokers. Does that change anything?Well, in controlled studies where the only potentially active ingredient is nicotine, there doesn't appear to be such evidence. After all, stopping the introduction of nicotine means 0mg nicotine.
That is, actually, a very good question. Technically, every perception is physiological because every perception involves brain activity, which is electrophysiological. Generally, at least in the drug dependence world, we separate physiological from psychological dependence. Although both dependence types are the result of brain activity, the distinction gets made on the basis of both severity of the symptoms as well as on the dependence profile of the drug. It is an easy call for alcohol, benzodiazepines and barbiturates, because sudden cessation in dependent persons can lead to death. For opioids, it is a harder call, and those that refer to opioid dependence as being physiological do so, solely on the basis of the severity of the withdrawal symptoms (i.e., nobody dies as a direct result of opioid withdrawal). So, I guess that I would argue that opioid dependence is very severe psychological dependence. Now, since there is no evidence that the drug nicotine, by itself, produces any sort of dependence, one has to explain 'smoking withdrawal' some other way. I favor a totally psychological mechanism (based on my experience and that of other relatively short term (<10 years) smokers). However, I am not so quick to dismiss the 'other things in the smoke' hypothesis (although, if something was going to cause dependence it seems it shouldnt take more than 10 years to do so). So, it would be interesting to see somebody do some kind of study with WTA.
Yes, actually. From the non-smoker studies we generate the hypothesis that nicotine doesn't, itself, produce dependence. So, if there are withdrawal symptoms associated with smoking cessation (especially in long time smokers) the dependence must be attributed to something other than nicotine. See my post above.
To be clearer, you have a smoker. He quits smoking and takes up vaping with a heavy dose of nic in his juice. A few weeks later you give him 0mg juice. He will, as best I understand things, complain loudly when you do that.
There is something going on with that chemical (nicotine). I will fully acknowledge that there is a lot of behavioral dependence in there, that the vaping should mostly replace (it did with me, as best I understand myself). But the nic is important too, somehow.
Since we were talking about it, I been dripping some tonight at 20W in a dual coil Royal Hunter running about 0.8 ohm. I don't go crazy over the sub-ohming. A hell of a throat hit
My reason for doing it is when I need to get my nic with as few hits as possible, for social reasons. Of course, according to you I should not have to do that
I would like to convince myself you are right 
There's been speculation that the dependence is related to the presence of other chemicals in tobacco. Not in the sense that those other chemicals create dependence themselves, but in the sense that they facilitate the dependence creating potential of nicotine. I don't know where that idea comes from, though it sounds right for what that's worth. Do you have an opinion on this?
I understand behavioral chains.
However, I also understand that people are invested in believing a certain thing over another and there are reasons for that, esp within groups, ie. they are blinded to things an outsider might see.
Read the rather brilliant book by Daniel Kahneman "Thinking, Fast and Slow" he is a nobel prize winner. It is really an amazing book, on how we think, the conclusions we draw, etc. (I am working thru it slowly). Look it up on amazon.
Now I can't say I agree with you or Stevegmu, but I will say that on a vaping board, where people are going to be heavily invested in the idea that nicotine isn't addictive, or even causes dependency, people are going to *agree* with the person who says that, more than than with somebody who says the opposite. The investment in knowledge that supports their behavior/lifestyle is obviously going to be that which they pay more attention to.......it is self preserving.
(WYSIATI. We often ignore that our conclusions may be biased because we are using the information of fellow insiders instead of incorporating information from outsiders). The book challenges many ideas about judgments and decision-making, including that of experts.
(What I was thinking about during some of the diketones in eliquids debates is covered in the book, that people are more willing to take possibly unreasonable risks when all the alternatives are bad.....)
Other book at my bedside I am also working thru is The Power Of Habit by Charles Duhigg
http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Hab...8160X/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t/175-2478124-6708610
I think in order to have a truly honest conversation, about anything, you have to be within a group with individuals where many have very differing viewpoints and are not invested in the SAME outcome. (Unfortunately, this is harder to do in the last decade or so, because people have been groomed to see disagreement as someting combative instead of an ILLUMINATING EXPERIENCE.
)
Wow, you are breathtakingly unbelievable, @Racehorse. Speaking strictly for myself, because I am the only one I can speak for here, I believe nicotine, delivered to never-smokers without the use of tobacco, is not addictive for one reason and one reason only, the great body of scientific evidence. It has nothing to do with my personal beliefs. In fact, if it were not for that body of evidence, I would believe that nicotine is equally addictive in never-smokers, just because I would have no reason to believe otherwise, having always believed in the addictive nature of nicotine at a general level. I have no skin in the game for wanting any particular outcome in that. Science and the vast preponderance of evidence trumps anything I might "feel" otherwise. Some of us actually think, although from the above I don't think you are one of us.I understand behavioral chains.
However, I also understand that people are invested in believing a certain thing over another and there are reasons for that, esp within groups, ie. they are blinded to things an outsider might see.
Read the rather brilliant book by Daniel Kahneman "Thinking, Fast and Slow" he is a nobel prize winner. It is really an amazing book, on how we think, the conclusions we draw, etc. (I am working thru it slowly). Look it up on amazon.
Now I can't say I agree with you or Stevegmu, but I will say that on a vaping board, where people are going to be heavily invested in the idea that nicotine isn't addictive, or even causes dependency, people are going to *agree* with the person who says that, more than than with somebody who says the opposite. The investment in knowledge that supports their behavior/lifestyle is obviously going to be that which they pay more attention to.......it is self preserving.
(WYSIATI. We often ignore that our conclusions may be biased because we are using the information of fellow insiders instead of incorporating information from outsiders). The book challenges many ideas about judgments and decision-making, including that of experts.
(What I was thinking about during some of the diketones in eliquids debates is covered in the book, that people are more willing to take possibly unreasonable risks when all the alternatives are bad.....)
Other book at my bedside I am also working thru is The Power Of Habit by Charles Duhigg
http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Hab...8160X/ref=cm_cr_pr_sims_t/175-2478124-6708610
I think in order to have a truly honest conversation, about anything, you have to be within a group with individuals where many have very differing viewpoints and are not invested in the SAME outcome. (Unfortunately, this is harder to do in the last decade or so, because people have been groomed to see disagreement as someting combative instead of an ILLUMINATING EXPERIENCE.
And despite the discussions today with mosspa, and what I learned peviously from his thread, I have a great difficulty buying his argument that nicotine is not addictive even in smokers, simply because that is not what my brain tells me my body is telling me. But I do have tremendous respect for mosspa, for his lifetime of academic work in the field of neuropsychology as well as his obvious intellect. So I am keeping an open mind on that and trying hard to understand his viewpoint on that. if he is right, he is right, regardless of what I think or previously thought.
The fact that you are so desperately trying to to ascribe some sort of bias to us, and completely ignoring the body of evidence, is a clear sign that you yourself are the one with some sort of agenda.
You are free to speak of your own personal biases. But I must demand that you not attempt to speak for me, individually. And therefore it would behoove you not to try to speak for us collectively because I am quite sure I am not alone on this, based on the discussion here. It is clear to me you are so far out in left field on this, you aren't even in the park.
Yes, he will complain. The obvious absence of the throat hit would be a cue. So, if the individual believes that he is hooked on niocotine, his recognition that there is none in th eejuice would trigger the brain defense mechanisms an precipitate 'withdrawal symptoms'.
You are a mindless idealogue on the other side of the argument that nicotine really is not...nicotine.
Other than my skepticism, based on the fact that it appears to take a ridiculously long time to achieve 'dependence' on smoking, no. That's whu I would like to see a WTA study. Even a rat one would be helpful.
This is mindless idealogue coming to a conclusion based on bunk science and peer review studies. Comical.
Hey Doc, post your full real name and accredation otherwise take your professor title and...... Your views are discounted at face value throughout this thread. They are entirely meaningless to me. A "teacher" on an internet blog blathering about dosing himself with nic patches...REALLY?
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Cognitive enhancement...LOL. How much is that class Teach. Talk about selling Snake Oil...Is your middle name Barnum or Bailey...Hilarious. Psychological Buzz Word Enhancement....Duh, for cognitive enhancement, for example. BTW, I strongly you suggest you substantially up your nicotine dose
All I know for sure is it has been a struggle for me to reduce nicotine, I started at 36 mg nic, now vape 6mg nic using + ohm & 3 mg nic sub ohm.
I still get strong cravings to smoke, using a higher nic mg doesn’t help, clouds, heat & throat hit doesn’t help. No matter the nic%, clouds, heat & throat hit I vape more frequently than I smoked, which was 2 -3 packs per day.
Vaping 0 nic has the same effects on me that attempting cold turkey smoking cessation did.
I can’t be around anyone that is smoking not because it smells horrid or any other reason popular on this forum.
I haven’t lit, taken one drag or even held an unlit cigarette since 12 2012, because I know what would happen if I did.
You’d think after 2 years & 7.5 months + without a single drag from a cigarette, slowly reducing nic along the way, someone that sincerely wants to be nicotine free would be.
I still get strong cravings to smoke, using a higher nic mg doesn’t help, clouds, heat & throat hit doesn’t help. No matter the nic%, clouds, heat & throat hit I vape more frequently than I smoked, which was 2 -3 packs per day.
Vaping 0 nic has the same effects on me that attempting cold turkey smoking cessation did.
I can’t be around anyone that is smoking not because it smells horrid or any other reason popular on this forum.
I haven’t lit, taken one drag or even held an unlit cigarette since 12 2012, because I know what would happen if I did.
You’d think after 2 years & 7.5 months + without a single drag from a cigarette, slowly reducing nic along the way, someone that sincerely wants to be nicotine free would be.
Denial, acce
I gave up trying to lower my nic. I got down to 12, got nothing out of it, back to 18, chain vaped when I could and am now back to 24 with a couple ml of 36 at night. I don't crave cigarettes or smoking at all. I do have a few in Prague on holiday, and it's like my old friend is back. I enjoy them- the smell, taste, feel. Flicking the cherry off then tossing a .... in a trash can or smashing it down in an ash tray. A couple of the ladies are smokers and I enjoy having a cigarette with them. Once I leave it is done though. Not even the thought of smoking. Same with drinking, though, and I was an end stage alcoholic back in the day. Addiction is a powerful thing...
I gave up trying to lower my nic. I got down to 12, got nothing out of it, back to 18, chain vaped when I could and am now back to 24 with a couple ml of 36 at night. I don't crave cigarettes or smoking at all. I do have a few in Prague on holiday, and it's like my old friend is back. I enjoy them- the smell, taste, feel. Flicking the cherry off then tossing a .... in a trash can or smashing it down in an ash tray. A couple of the ladies are smokers and I enjoy having a cigarette with them. Once I leave it is done though. Not even the thought of smoking. Same with drinking, though, and I was an end stage alcoholic back in the day. Addiction is a powerful thing...
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