Vapor Flask V3 DNA40 Clone thread

[dwcraig1]

Thanks! I keep meaning to try it out and keep forgetting. Don't suppose you timed how long it took to recharge?



Fair enough!

No I didn't but there was nothing quick about it and they weren't all that low. I doubt if the battery symbol even dropped from full.
BTW, I charge every one of my mods on board when equipped.

 

[dwcraig1]

One more thing to add about evolv is the their customer service, at least with my experiences. They have always been willing to help me out whether the problem was caused by me or not. I'm wondering if the new VF is going to be a little larger to fit the large screen in it.

I think Evolv is about to raise the bar again.
For Phone Guy:

 

[TheBloke]

I think Evolv is about to raise the bar again.

Just a guess or is there news/rumour?

 

[dwcraig1]

Just a guess or is there news/rumour?

Just chatter

 

[TheBloke]

At the minimum I hope their next chip features a TCR adjustment scale, like the Dicodes and SXK have.

In my view 'meeting the bar' at this stage requires TCR adjustment with mOhm accuracy - to nearest 0.001Ω - ie what Dicodes have.

Raising the bar for standard TC would mean 1 in 10,000 (0.0001Ω) accuracy and TCR adjustment from 0.00011 (Nichrome 80) to 0.010 (Silver and other future wires to be discovered/created.)

But maybe they'll go a different way - a sensor in the atty, like Innokin are seemingly doing. Though that's harder for a company that's currently just a chip maker to achieve. I suppose they could sell a mod chip and an atty sensor-kit that other vendors than implement into a mod and sets of dedicated attys.

Then again no-one - or not many anyway - were thinking about TC via resistance monitoring until they brought it out, so perhaps they'll surprise us all again with something no-one else is doing.

Whatever it is I think they need to bring it out, or at least announce it soon, if they want to continue being thought of as on the forefront.

 

[Quantum Mech]

I was wondering how innokin could be using kanthal too or how things could change totally in the future

One thing I thought of would be to come away from temp sensing & switching to moisture sensing

As in two prongs that the wick must touch that would sense electrical path between the two

As the path depleted this would show low liquid on the wick & when path was nearly gone indicate dry hit

Depending on resistance of path, power to the coil could be restricted to maintain adequate juice to power ratio

Don't know if it would work but some pumps work like this to sense the presence of liquid & switch the pumps on

 

[TheBloke]

Oh, that's interesting!

The current thought on Innokin is that they're using a standard Thermopile - which (as I learnt the other day) is the name of the infrared sensor found in those IR temperature sensor guns.

So their dedicated atty would have a coil head (as it's surely going to be at the start) with some sort of open window through which an IR sensor points right at the coil. Or, the sensor is part of the replaceable coil head (making them far more expensive per head, presumably.)

That's a relatively controlled environment in which the sensor could be fairly accurate.

But yeah maybe it's something different entirely, as you suggest.

The big doubt over their system is whether it will ever allow rebuildable coils. It seems almost certain it won't with their first tank, the "iSub TC" ("The first tank to feature Innokin Control Technology!"), which definitely looks like it's heads only - as the normal iSub was. And they don't have a huge incentive to make it generally rebuildable, given that provides a steady stream of revenue in replaced coils and that many people only or primarily use coil heads anyway.

It's theoretically possible to be reduildable using thermopiles - they'd need the sensor in a fixed location right above the coil, and then the rebuilt coil would need to follow certain parameters on size. It might not end up as accurate as a standard-spec coil head, but it should be possible - if they want to try.

What I also find very interesting is what mechanism they will use to attach mod to atty. Will it be a standard 510 with a couple of extra wires, or something else entirely?

As I said in the Innokin thread, the 510 is long past its prime and a generic control interface from mod to atty would be hugely welcome - it could allow the passing of all sorts of data. Temperature sensors like we're discussing; automatic atty ID for the mod, so it knows what atty and/or coil head is attached and pre-sets wire type/temperature/wattage accordingly; control of multi-chamber tanks; control of juice/airflow from the mod - press a button and a motorised AFC rotates to a setting; turn off the mod and it 'locks' the atty to prevent leaking; loads of things along those lines.

But it needs a new standard connector, with backwards compatibility - not each vendor coming out with their own proprietary thing that only handles their specific need. Which is almost certainly what they'll do, of course!

I did take some hope from "Innokin Control Technology" not having any mention of Temperature, perhaps suggesting they're going to make it generic. But it could just be a missing word, meaning nothing

 

[Quantum Mech]

It could be a thermopile but any juice on it would distort the light path & throw it off

IR compared to K-type & thermocouples is inherently very inaccurate even in my IR fluke it is way off at some temps & accurate at others

 

[Tpat591]

Wouldn't the very nature of producing vapor in an enclosed chamber and condensation formation prohibit by occlusion any type of IR sensor?

 

[TheBloke]

Yeah, that's why I was thinking maybe a window through which the IR sensor views the coil - a vertical where the air path goes through the middle of the coil (like many coil heads already), so vapour is pulled through the middle then the coil is viewed from the outside where it is not obscured?

Though the way those vertical coils usually work is that they're surrounded by cotton - they can't have cotton in the middle because that's the air path.

So that would suggest the sensor would be viewing cotton, not coil - unless they sort of thread the cotton in strips so some coil is visible. Or maybe viewing the cotton is enough - after all, it's the temperature of the the cotton that really matters ultimately.

All just speculation at this stage. Maybe it's not a Thermopile at all and something like Quantum suggested, measuring the moisture.

 

[Tpat591]

Seems to me the best method will always be the current method of using the wire itself as the sensing device of its own temperature will always be the simplest and most accurate approach but that advancements will made in expanding the current wire choice options and overall accuracy of the approach. Any other method seems overly complicated and would lack ability to provide the necessary flexibility to satisfy the demands of the overall market and adapt to future development.

 

[TheBloke]

Seems to me the best method will always be the current method of using the wire itself as the sensing device of its own temperature will always be the simplest and most accurate approach but that advancements will made in expanding the current wire choice options and overall accuracy of the approach. Any other method seems overly complicated and would lack ability to provide the necessary flexibility to satisfy the demands of the overall market and adapt to future development.

But with Kanthal, the resistance rise is so tiny - 0.005Ω for a 0.5Ω coil by 500°C / 939°F - that the difference in temperature between, say, 300°F and 450°F would be something like 0.001, which is 10 times lower than the minimum static resistance in any given atty (0.01) with many going up to 0.03Ω or so.

We know they're using special tanks. So I suppose it could theoretically be that the special tank has no sensor, but rather has a very precisely known resistance combined with the precisely known resistance of the coil heads/wire (and the length and thickness of the wire in the heads would have to be exactly the same, to the 0.1mm at least, every time) which can be included in the calculation. And then they do have 1-in-10,000 resistance measurements (10 times more accurate than the best thus far.)

It just seems more likely to me that it's some kind of sensor - when you have control of the tank, it seems to be easier/cheaper to put in a sensor chip than to get the engineering perfection required for that quality of resistance measurements. I agree there seem to be hurdles with a sensor, but there's hurdles with all ways - and the sensor hurdles sound, at least to this layman, easier to overcome.

@Mooch in the Innokin thread did say it's possible to get that resistance accuracy, but he emphasised that the care and exactness required in the electronics and wiring was extreme, and agreed that providing it in an affordable mod/tank sounded unlikely:

There are very easy ways to quite accurately read voltages/resistances/currents to within one part in almost a 4,100 part range of values. If the designers are verrrry good they can read a value to one part over a 65,000 part range.

Assuming a 0.4-2.5 ohm coil resistance range (is that correct?) they could potentially read a 32 micro-ohm difference in the coil's resistance. But that requires calibration (hmmm...use their own coils?), verrry carefully designed electronics, an electrically quiet operating environment (which we do not have), and software averaging of several readings (takes a bit of time).

Not impossible, but tough to do.

Ahhh...yea, I wasn't even thinking about cost...good point!

I'll also say that if they do have 1-in-10000 resistance measurements, then tying it to a specific tank and pre-made Kanthal coils would be a horrendous waste They should open it up to all coils for super-accurate TC with standard high-TCR wires. Or maybe they will; maybe you're right, they're doing it with resistance, with Kanthal possible only with a special tank and special known-resistance coils, and then they'll use the same system for general, highly accurate TC.

I still have lots of doubts about the viability with Kanthal of any affordable resistance-based system. But I guess we'll know in a few weeks!

 

[Quantum Mech]

Seems to me the best method will always be the current method of using the wire itself as the sensing device of its own temperature will always be the simplest and most accurate approach but that advancements will made in expanding the current wire choice options and overall accuracy of the approach. Any other method seems overly complicated and would lack ability to provide the necessary flexibility to satisfy the demands of the overall market and adapt to future development.

The big flaw in the current method is it is guesstimating
If the wire was a set length then an algorithm could be set to know the temperature of the wire
With so many wire lengths/thicknesses being used , spaced coils, touching coils sharing heat from adjacent coils ect
Then bring dual coils into it with all the variances of the diff coils we all make
There maybe in the future a better & more accurate way of doing it
Or this could be as good as we need it or its going to get

 

[TheBloke]

The big flaw in the current method is it is guesstimating
If the wire was a set length then an algorithm could be set to know the temperature of the wire
With so many wire lengths/thicknesses being used , spaced coils, touching coils sharing heat from adjacent coils ect
Then bring dual coils into it with all the variances of the diff coils we all make
There maybe in the future a better & more accurate way of doing it
Or this could be as good as we need it or its going to get

Yeah I agree - these are all big factors in current temp sensing with a TCR of 0.006. It's already 'guestimating' in a lot of cases.

Then try and do that with a wire that has a TCR 300+ times lower; so low that I can't even find a figure quoted for it. NiChrome 80's TCR is 0.00011, 54 times lower than Ni200. For Ni80, by 500°C a 1.0Ω coil rises to 1.07Ω, seven times higher than Kanthal at the same temp. So I think we could estimate that Kanthal A1's TCR is 380 times lower than Ni200

It may be possible to do in a precisely controlled way - known tank, known coil heads - with supremely accurate resistance measurement. But I am willing to put myself out there and say it's impossible - at least at any affordable cost, in the forseeable future - in any other environment, and very unlikely even in the controlled one.

It could be that this will be more a stunt from Innokin than anything else. They want to "tick the box" of having working TC with Kanthal - meaning with their atty, with their (expensive) coil heads, and perhaps with further limitations (only accurate to nearest 100°F perhaps.)

Then again if they go the sensor route I think they have more chance of making it at least slightly more accurate and perhaps slightly less controlled - though still limited to coil heads at least at first, and maybe for a long while.

We shall see

 

[Quantum Mech]

Yeah I agree - these are all big factors in current temp sensing with a TCR of 0.006. It's already 'guestimating' in a lot of cases.

Then try and do that with a wire that has a TCR 300+ times lower; so low that I can't even find a figure quoted for it. NiChrome 80's TCR is 0.00011, 54 times lower than Ni200. For Ni80, by 500°C a 1.0Ω coil rises to 1.07Ω, seven times higher than Kanthal at the same temp. So I think we could estimate that Kanthal A1's TCR is 380 times lower than Ni200

It may be possible to do in a precisely controlled way - known tank, known coil heads - with supremely accurate resistance measurement. But I am willing to put myself out there and say it's impossible - at least at any affordable cost, in the forseeable future - in any other environment, and very unlikely even in the controlled one.

It could be that this will be more a stunt from Innokin than anything else. They want to "tick the box" of having working TC with Kanthal - meaning with their atty, with their (expensive) coil heads, and perhaps with further limitations (only accurate to nearest 100°F perhaps.)

Then again if they go the sensor route I think they have more chance of making it at least slightly more accurate and perhaps slightly less controlled - though still limited to coil heads at least at first, and maybe for a long while.

We shall see

Thinking about it more that would account for Dicodes wire only coming in one size

It will allow them to guesstimate more accurately than anyone else as they at least know the wire thickness even if they don't know the build

^ that's a strange sentence guesstimating & accuracy in the same sentence but I think you's know what I am trying to say

 

[TheBloke]

There is no earth wire to top plate I believe

Wheres @TheBloke when you need him

The fix is a light sand of under side of top plate and case mating service

Just got confirmation from one of the FT forum guys - you were right, this fixed it.

I still can't quite understand how grounding could cause an atty reading of 0.00 and Low Res. But anyway he did that and now his works

Unless I suppose that he did have an internal short, and somehow just taking off the top plate and the necessary moving of the 510 wires resolved it?

Anyway he's happy now! He can't post here as he's not got the new-user posts yet.

 

[TheBloke]

Thinking about it more that would account for Dicodes wire only coming in one size

It will allow them to guesstimate more accurately than anyone else as they at least know the wire thickness even if they don't know the build

^ that's a strange sentence guesstimating & accuracy in the same sentence but I think you's know what I am trying to say

Maybe - although they don't have a specific Resistherm mode. You can set the TCR to 0.0032 and then I suppose they could have a special check for it; when TCR = 320 (on their scale), assume wire is a certain size.

I thought it was just because that's the only (usable) size they can get the wire in

According to IsaballenHutte, they only make Resistherm wire up to 0.25mm (30G). I thought that Dicodes managed to scare some up in 0.28mm (29G), perhaps the result of inaccurate manufacturing on the 0.25mm wire, or just because they asked for a special size and Isabellen said they could push it to 0.28mm but no larger at reasonable cost.

They could have got 30G or smaller as well as 29G, but that's so thin I assumed they figured not many people would want it - not enough to justify sourcing it.

Maybe it's a bit of both - they can't get bigger than 29G and then they choose to offer only that size and no smaller so they can assume it when TCR = 320.

 

[TheBloke]

Though I hope that's not the case TBH because I'm already using twisted Resistherm

 

[Quantum Mech]

Just got confirmation from one of the FT forum guys - you were right, this fixed it.

I still can't quite understand how grounding could cause an atty reading of 0.00 and Low Res. But anyway he did that and now his works

Unless I suppose that he did have an internal short, and somehow just taking off the top plate and the necessary moving of the 510 wires resolved it?

Anyway he's happy now! He can't post here as he's not got the new-user posts yet.

Electronics can do weird and wonderful things under load when there is a poor power supply, earth or neutral

Quite often faults are intermittent which makes them even harder to find

Glad its working for him albeit the sanding or a loose connection that has been made better when he reassembled

 

[damped]

I vape now for about 14 months and I learned/discover my personal vape preference/taste so I do look at the numbers and levels which I'm vaping on (any mod with or without TC and using ,kanthal, ni200 or Ti wire) but the only real reference which is important for me is my taste (the only reference at the moment where I can rely on so far) so I try to accomplish this with any new mod without taking the numbers the mod displays all to serious.
So far it's working good for me, try it yourself, just dare to rely on your own taste perception and you will see the settings won't difference that much.
What I mean to say is don't underestimate your own physical sensors