Vaporizing loose leaf tobacco

[Str8vision]

I think this is a good question because the reason I prefer it is unknown at this stage. Without analysis of what is actually in the vapour, it's difficult to know why the particular combination of natural chemicals is so satisfying. WTA definitely sounds like it's closer to actual tobacco, but I'd need to compare them to give my opinion. I do think that once you start entering the realm of that kind of extraction/purification it's an additional process being carried out by unknown persons (i.e. an additional point where contamination could take place) and may not even include the ingredient/s I find so satisfying. I will try it though and feed back.

All I do know is it 'feels' like smoke in the lungs. It bites, like smoke does, but without stinging the throat on the way down. Some less reputable e-liquids I've tried have too much throat hit - much more than actual smoking in fact. It is almost like my body recognises that it's tobacco (I've smoked for nearly 30 years, since my pre-teens).

Back in the 80's I took part in a 3-month long Phillip Morris R&D trial of smokeless cigarettes. They looked just like regular cigarettes and even had real tobacco inside but that tobacco was heated by a catalytic pellet producing a wispy sort of vapor. The tobacco never burnt, scorched or was ever even discolored by the heating process. I didn't like them, the flavor was anemic and they had near zero throat hit.

Have you tried NETs? If not you might try Naturally-Extracted-Tobacco.com's Sun-Cured Turkish or Organic Spirit NETs are what brought me to vaping, nothing else comes close for providing a real tobacco experience. I make my own, ECF has a sub-forum for home extractors Liquid Extraction From Tobacco

If anyone reading this thread has resources to actually examine tobacco vapour (!), that would be great to discuss! There are lots of existing discussions around smoking tobacco vs e-cigs, but not comparing tobacco vapour to e-cig vapour.

NETs and the vapor they produce have been subjected to comprehensive scientific lab analysis, the results could be somewhat comparable to what you're doing, here's a link in case you're interested; IJERPH | Free Full-Text | Nicotine Levels and Presence of Selected Tobacco-Derived Toxins in Tobacco Flavoured Electronic Cigarette Refill Liquids | HTML and Dr. Farsalinos' view on the results of these tests; A new study verifies that e-cigarettes are orders of magnitude safer than tobacco cigarettes

 

[Foggy Road]

All I do know is it 'feels' like smoke in the lungs. It bites, like smoke does

But.. If'n it walks like...? If'n it talks like....?

 

[Bunnykiller]

Maybe I'm wrong. Enjoy your method of inhaling nicotine. I'm not a brain scientist or rocket surgeon. Whatever works for you. I know my VG/PG nicotine liquid won't dry out and combust lol.

try 300W

 

[quittingvegas]

Vapcap and vapman are both recent purchases for me but may be what your looking for

 

[f1vefour]

I'm interested, what does it taste like? Have you vaped naturally extracted tobacco? Similar?

 

[f1vefour]

Maybe I'm wrong. Enjoy your method of inhaling nicotine. I'm not a brain scientist or rocket surgeon. Whatever works for you. I know my VG/PG nicotine liquid won't dry out and combust lol.

PG won't dry out but it will combust.

 

[crxess]

PG won't dry out but it will combust.

Only in an overbuilt RDA when you forget to breath

Had to, don't know how many Youtubers have had their RDA's go up in flames with the cap off.

 

[GivingUp]

Ok, so it looks like I'll need to get hold of some WTA and NET for comparison. Is NET primarily used for flavour or also its psychoactive effect, like WTA?

The NET study was interesting as it also included tobacco - clearly there are far more toxins in the tobacco! Would be good to see numbers on vapour itself as none of us drink the ejuice or eat the tobacco. But if it's the case those additional toxins are being vaporized, that might explain why I prefer it!

Last night I was playing with different PG/VG ratios - I'm leaning towards more VG and dropping the temp a bit.

 

[f1vefour]

NETs are for flavor, they are not like WTA.

 

[GivingUp]

Cannot find results of many tests, so heat-not-burn is the closest we can get by the look of things. Heat-not-burn products vary wildly and all have their own approach.

Known heat-not-burn products (and differences between them and straight vaporization):

RJ Reynolds - Eclipse/Revo (recently discontinued)
This used a lit carbon tip as the energy source for vaporization so combustion is involved, even if the tobacco itself is vaped. Like a shisha pipe, there is no specific separate channel for combustion artifacts to escape. This might explain high carbon monoxide levels when tested. Other toxins were reduced apparently.
Eclipse: does it live up to its health claims? -- Slade et al. 11 (suppl 2): ii64 -- Tobacco Control

Philip Morris International - iQOS
This is more similar to loose leaf vaping in the sense that combustion is not used, rather a battery operated heating element. As crxess pointed out, Imperial Tobacco famously performed tests on iQOS to prove that there were still a broad range of toxins released, with similar distribution to cigarette smoke, but with 10 times less of them (note the Y axis).
http://www.imperialtobaccoscience.c..._of_a_range_of_nicotine_delivery_products.pdf
It should be noted that Imperial have ditched heat not burn and will directly compete with PMI with their own e-cigs so there is some politics at play. Here's Philip Morris' own angle on their product:
https://www.pmiscience.com/system/f...c_risk_assessment_final_presented_version.pdf
Another thing to note is iQOS vapes at 350 degrees C - that's more than twice the temp I'm vaping at. Wonder if this has an effect on toxins?


British American Tobacco - iFuse
Not even sure if this counts as heat-not-burn, it depends on whether vaporization takes place. Basically, a juice-based e-cig with a tobacco layer that the vapour passes through. It is referred to as a heat not burn device so I guess the vapour must be hot enough to vaporize some of the tobacco. If it doesn't, not sure what advantage this gives over NETs.


Pax Labs - Pax1/Pax2 - popular, lots of press
The PAX models are straight up loose leaf vapes like the mighty and crafty models I've been testing. These particular vapes are very popular and cheaper than mighty/crafty. However, they do not have full control of temperature, providing fixed temp settings that seem more suited to non-tobacco materials. PAX apparently create their own tobacco which I suspect has some kind of additives which make it vape well at their fixed temperatures. I find high temps of rolling tobacco in my vaporizer to be quite harsh.


So nothing that is directly comparable but Pax is clearly the closest with iQOS following (but with a much higher temp).

 

[f1vefour]

Cigarettes contain PG, it's what keeps the tobacco moist.

 

[edyle]

It is easy to humidify tobacco - American Spirit themselves provide advice on keeping moisture in the tobacco so it doesn't dry out. There is no atomizer in the Mighty. It is a mostly a convection vaporizer with some conductive functionality. It is a proven concept with other 'dried materials'. While your response sounds scientific, can you expand on why you think tobacco would combust when hot air at 170 degrees C is blown past it? And why there is no residual smoke in the room where I do it? Combustion of tobacco produces smoke, right?

Do you have to remove the tobacco, or does it eventually disappear.
If it disappears, then it combusts. In which case it's about slowed combustion.

 

[GivingUp]

Cigarettes contain PG, it's what keeps the tobacco moist.

Indeed, as does most rolling, pipe and shisha tobacco. Additive free (or close to additive free) tobacco is also available and is what I'm using for my testing (virginia tobacco + sugar).

 

[GivingUp]

Do you have to remove the tobacco, or does it eventually disappear.
If it disappears, then it combusts. In which case it's about slowed combustion.

There is no combustion. The bowl has to be emptied of its dried tobacco. No ash. Check out 'convection vaporization' on google for more info.

 

[GivingUp]

It is easy to humidify tobacco - American Spirit themselves provide advice on keeping moisture in the tobacco so it doesn't dry out.

I must add to this. After my initial usage, I got hold of some terracotta humidifying stones then humidified a pack of my rolling tobacco in the hope of producing more vapour (moist pipe tobacco had been recommended elsewhere on the internet). This is NOT recommended. For the rest of the packet, the vapour was harsher than previously and I found it difficult to use with consistent temperatures. Dry material is ALWAYS best in a loose leaf vape. I just started a new pack that is much drier and it vapes just right.

Variable temperature on the vaporizer is essential as comfort levels will vary, dependent on moisture and amount of tobacco and VG used.

Crafty: Portable CRAFTY Vaporizer
Mighty: Portable, battery powered MIGHTY Vaporizer

 

[UnclePsyko]

Cigarettes contain PG, it's what keeps the tobacco moist.

^^This was what I was thinking^^
PG is added to tobacco to keep it moist and to prevent mold/mildew issues. The fluid for my (now unused) humidor is a 50-50% PG/Distilled water mix.
Maybe what you need are juices that are more PG heavy?
I personally vape at least 70%pg NET juices, throat hit was never an issue.

 

[GivingUp]

I've tried lots of different ratios but it's never quite hit the spot. I am intrigued by WTA though, seems like a natural progression of e-cigs. I'm starting to think vaping tobacco simply releases a more authentic combination of toxins but at lower levels than cigarettes.

 

[GivingUp]

Philip Morris International - iQOS
This is more similar to loose leaf vaping in the sense that combustion is not used, rather a battery operated heating element. As crxess pointed out, Imperial Tobacco famously performed tests on iQOS to prove that there were still a broad range of toxins released, with similar distribution to cigarette smoke, but with 10 times less of them (note the Y axis).
http://www.imperialtobaccoscience.c..._of_a_range_of_nicotine_delivery_products.pdf
It should be noted that Imperial have ditched heat not burn and will directly compete with PMI with their own e-cigs so there is some politics at play. Here's Philip Morris' own angle on their product:
https://www.pmiscience.com/system/f...c_risk_assessment_final_presented_version.pdf
Another thing to note is iQOS vapes at 350 degrees C - that's more than twice the temp I'm vaping at. Wonder if this has an effect on toxins?

Update on this - the 350 degrees C quoted here was from all the press around iQOS. Note that the original PMI PDF linked was created in May 2015. In Sep 2015, they released a similar doc/presentation that included some info on combustion, indoor air quality and maximum temp of device (250 degrees C). I'm taking this with a pinch of salt as it seems the new info was to counter Imperial's research but PMI don't give much detail on how they carried out their own tests apart from a glimpse into their combustion tests: looks like they activated in nitrogen atmosphere (no oxygen) and compared output to those in air, resulting in 'equivalent aerosol composition' so concluded (along with max temp) that there was no combustion. I'm amazed there hasn't been more independent research on these devices instead of just by vested interests.
https://www.pmiscience.com/system/files/publications/presentation_moira_gilchrist_gtnf_2015a.pdf

 

[GivingUp]

This is pretty useful (though sponsored by British American Tobacco). Seems to indicate that heated tobacco still releases about half the amount of TSNAs than when smoked so not a great way to avoid all carcinogens.

An experimental method to study emissions from heated tobacco between 100-200°C

I think I'll use the loose leaf vaporizer as a stepping stone to e-cig. At the very least it's worth doing for the immediate respiratory benefits from moving away from smoking.

Some WTA liquid is currently in the air mail from USA.

 

[Mr.Mann]

This is pretty useful (though sponsored by British American Tobacco). Seems to indicate that heated tobacco still releases about half the amount of TSNAs than when smoked so not a great way to avoid all carcinogens.

An experimental method to study emissions from heated tobacco between 100-200°C

I think I'll use the loose leaf vaporizer as a stepping stone to e-cig. At the very least it's worth doing for the immediate respiratory benefits from moving away from smoking.

Some WTA liquid is currently in the air mail from USA.

What did you get a far as WTA?