VG Causing Blood Sugar Spikes

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Oh, and diabeics:

Regarding the "no grazing" advice in the guy's article, that's the worst thing one could suggest.

Keep a little bag of nuts or whatever you're not allergic to, with you to grab and eat when ever you need it.

6 small meals is the ideal ratio for a diabetic, not less.

Anyway i'm off topic here, so PM me if you have any question regarding what i said :D

-[Arsenic] :)
 

SweetPuff

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Agreed! Good advice arsenic!

Eating small, healthy meals, evenly spaced throughout the day is the best way to stay as even as possible w/o sugar spikes or crashes. Spacing out vaping helps out too :)


Oh, and diabeics:

Regarding the "no grazing" advice in the guy's article, that's the worst thing one could suggest.

Keep a little bag of nuts or whatever you're not allergic to, with you to grab and eat when ever you need it.

6 small meals is the ideal ratio for a diabetic, not less.

Anyway i'm off topic here, so PM me if you have any question regarding what i said :D

-[Arsenic] :)
 
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Looked at link a bit... yeah...

Beef fat = good (??? it's solid at room temperature and still thick if you hold it in your hands)

Olive oil = bad?

Oh my...

Do you have a death wish or something?

It doesn't take a paleonthologist to figure out that a heart attack can kill a person!




Death diet, seriously. We, [current and former] smokers are already at risk for heart disease, and you with all seriousness suggest this diet is healthy. Couldn't you put up a disclaimer or something?

That this is for entertainment purposes only and that ancient people only lived to about 30 years old!!

Total non-argument you have up until here. Yup, people only lived to be 30, but there are other factors like lack of technology, medical science, and such.

Arsenic said:
If you care to know, we are all primates. Like monkeys and the great apes - chimps, gorilas and orangutangs. What do they eat? Mostly fruit. Some protein, other plant matter like seeds, but mostly fruit.

We, primates are omnivores like bears and pigs, so our stomachs can handle a whole variety of food, but our gut is still a fruit-eater's gut. Our teeth, same way.

We are not cats... or dogs... and we all know how long our beloved pets can live... they have no choice but to eat a nearly all-meat diet, but we do. Cholesterol and all that ammonia in the urine are great examples of how meat and its metabolytes can affect the body when not eaten in moderation.

For the vast majority of human existence, we did not eat refined flour, plant oil, or large amounts of fructose ("neolithic agents"). No, early humans did not mainly eat fruit. Animal fats are much more calorie dense. People needed to survive an uncertain schedule of even having food to eat, their pack of people finding the next wild boar vs. you getting Tato Skins delivered to your doorstep 24/7.

You are just plain flat wrong. See here for more:

PaNu - P

PaNu - P

It's your body, it's up to you.

No watermelons, no apples.. :)facepalm:) 2/3 animal-based meals... well, enjoy your kidney stones :laugh:

Sorry if i hurt your feelings. I'm just concerned. Concerned that comeone will take this all without a grain of salt. And they are free to do what they want. But i reserve the right to question what i consider deadly advice.

-[Arsenic]

I eat fruit and carbs to some degree, but then my metabolism isn't broken. Based on genetics and other factors people can tolerate different amounts of these. You really ought to actually learn about what you are trying to argue against. No hurt feelings, I'm entirely used to people doing this.

Regarding kidney stones, this mentions uric acid and lots of other posts of his as well. Again, you're clearly wrong.

PaNu - P
 
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Total non-argument you have up until here. Yup, people only lived to be 30, but there are other factors like lack of technology, medical science, and such.

Point i'm making is at 30 a person is young enough that the effects of bad habits (dietary and otherwise) are not easily noticed. They died in the prime of their life.

When you're young, your body can handle a lot of stress, disease and load. When you get older, your body wears out and every little thing shows its effect much more. But a lot of the chronic deseases don't get diagnosed until the 30's, so one could pretend they never existed in those times simply due to the fact that everyone was young.

To say that the hunter-gatherer days were the best phase of human history nutrition-wise would be misleading. The food choices made then were based on what would yield the most calories and what was available at hand.

For the vast majority of human existence, we did not eat refined flour, plant oil, or large amounts of fructose ("neolithic agents"). No, early humans did not mainly eat fruit.

Never said we did. I said that the rest of primate population, which has very similar internal organs to ours still continues to.

If you're talking about evolution here, then one must realize that in the case of humans, what's evolved more than anything is the brain. Everything else had been compensated by technology, not bodyparts. So it's not the survival of those who are best equipped to eat meat, all primates are capable of it, but of those with the best tools and hunting strategies.

Food choices have not forced some to die and others to live. In those times, humans ate more meat than is healthy, but that was the most convenient source of food in terms of calories per pound. The body dealt with it. Now, the overload is on the carb side, and our bodies deal with it, since our digestive system has not switched from a fruit-eater's to a meat eater's, but still has both capabilities.


BTW, the brain is made up of more unsaturated fats than the sold, saturated fats in beef and lamb. So fish and plant oils are much closer to what is in the nerve tissues, and unless they are hydrogenated, which i'm totally against as it's truly unnatural, they do not form plaques inside the arteries.

Animal fats are much more calorie dense. People needed to survive an uncertain schedule of even having food to eat, their pack of people finding the next wild boar vs. you getting Tato Skins delivered to your doorstep 24/7.

First of all, i don't eat 'those things. Ick. Potato chips are full of empty calories. The key here is having the correct ratio of vitamins and minerals in their bio-available form to the amount of empty calories one consumes.

Yes, eating large amounts of either refined carbs, fats or proteins will deplete the micronutrients our body needs to function properly. So the problem is not that we eat things like that, but that commercially-farmed food does not have the full set of vitamins and minerals that it would have in nature. Chemical fertilizers for crops are the same as refined fats and carbs for animals, and actually yield them too.

Lack of physical activity is as much of an issue as lack of vitamins. The hunter-gatherer tribes did move around quite a bit.

You are just plain flat wrong. See here for more:

PaNu - P

PaNu - P


I eat fruit and carbs to some degree, but then my metabolism isn't broken. Based on genetics and other factors people can tolerate different amounts of these. You really ought to actually learn about what you are trying to argue against. No hurt feelings, I'm entirely used to people doing this.

Thanks for the links, will look.

But you must realize that people take advice at face value. Many people will assume that the page in your first link in this thread is the way it is. It is exactly right that people haven't learned the essense of that system, and if you're introducing people to, you have to realize that they DON'T know yet.

There's a difference in a newbie's perception of something versus someone that's spent years on the subject, so if you want to introduce people to some topic, start with something that isn't designed for the initiated, and is more in line with common sense.

That quote i showed you with 50-80% animal fat, that's something that will scare some people and make others very skeptical.

But for a person like you it's not as shocking considering you've read the book that tells you that olive oil is unhealthy, and you've read whatever is in those links you suggested to me now.


Regarding kidney stones, this mentions uric acid and lots of other posts of his as well. Again, you're clearly wrong.

PaNu - P

Good to know that he's aware of that.

But again for an outsider, the comment regarding how bad watermelon is, coupled with suggesting a diet that's 2/3 meat, sounds like the kidneys and bladder are bathed in a lot of metabolytes, hence the stones. Watermelon ond other juicy fruit, regardless of sugar content are good at flushing the kidneys ang bladder clean. You'd get bored trying to drink as much water as a watermelon contains, but eating one is a pretty fun procedure :p

Juicy fruit and vegetables, like the melon family, whatever it's called, are a source of clean (and microstructured, if you know what i mean) water. Things like Jicama are also good sources of clean water in desert environments where none is available. They have a taproot that can reach down many feet into the ground in search of a water source.

In absence of vegetable sources, water can be made from fats, but fats (if you care to research it), are used by animal bodies to also isolate and store toxins, but not by plants, which only store energy.

Hey, i've had cats since i was a kid, and i know how bad their urine smells when they stop drinking water for some reason (good fresh water too). Kidney problems are an irrevocable part of an aging cat :laugh:

So i have real basis to question the advice from the page in your first link. Like it or not, what makes sense in the context of what you know, may sound completely crazy to the next person.

-[Arsenic] :)
 
Sorry but I just don't have the time to refute everything there. Who cares what monkeys eat? Don't they only live to be 30? It isn't about historical reenactment but recognizing what our bodies really need, and it isn't 8 servings of grain/day. Humans are not adapted to eating bird food (whole grains) and our stomachs don't work like ruminants. We're adapted to eating the ruminants themselves, much more so than those things which we merely tolerate to one degree or another.

Water is a good source of water. Tea is also quite beneficial. Study the metabolic processes involved with fructose. The liver basically treats it as a poison and tries to get rid of it ASAP. So, yeah eating watermelon is excusable if you are going to die of thirst, but otherwise you should just drink water not bags of sugar water (fruit). Fruits may contain various beneficial polyphenols and such but they are hardly essential. Do you know how the people who are very strict paleo deal without consuming vitamin C? Eating all the meat (and organs) allows your body to not need vitamin C.

I'm going to avoid arguing this further. I brought it up only because you will find various places on the web talking about how great and safe adding glycerin to nutrition bars is and it is from the same incorrect nutritional perspective you are trying to advance.
 

SweetPuff

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Aprioristic, I think it is great that you have offered your point of view, provided links for people to read, and have been so helpful. It's always interesting to read about topics that others have a vast amount of knowledge and experience with. While I may not feel comfortable adopting all of the recommendations, my husband and I have been incorporating several of those for a long time, and they have helped us both immensely with several health issues. Out of everyone we know, we probably have the healthiest diet. Eating this way has dramatically lowered my hubby's LDL cholesterol, lowered my bs to normal levels, and improve over all health. So I certainly hope you don't shut down and stop sharing your feedback.

Arsenic, you also offer some very good points and it's totally okay to disagree with the theories, it just seems like you're going a tad bit overboard already. We got your point. We're all here to share and learn from one another...but you're making it seem like we are in a court of law, and you are the prosecutor...taking on such an aggressive stance kind of shuts down what the forum is all about. I'm curious, if you are neither diabetic, nor sensitive to vg, what interests you so much about this thread other than playing devils advocate?



Sorry but I just don't have the time to refute everything there. Who cares what monkeys eat? Don't they only live to be 30? It isn't about historical reenactment but recognizing what our bodies really need, and it isn't 8 servings of grain/day. Humans are not adapted to eating bird food (whole grains) and our stomachs don't work like ruminants. We're adapted to eating the ruminants themselves, much more so than those things which we merely tolerate to one degree or another.

Water is a good source of water. Tea is also quite beneficial. Study the metabolic processes involved with fructose. The liver basically treats it as a poison and tries to get rid of it ASAP. So, yeah eating watermelon is excusable if you are going to die of thirst, but otherwise you should just drink water not bags of sugar water (fruit). Fruits may contain various beneficial polyphenols and such but they are hardly essential. Do you know how the people who are very strict paleo deal without consuming vitamin C? Eating all the meat (and organs) allows your body to not need vitamin C.

I'm going to avoid arguing this further. I brought it up only because you will find various places on the web talking about how great and safe adding glycerin to nutrition bars is and it is from the same incorrect nutritional perspective you are trying to advance.
 

EvilGnome6

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That this is for entertainment purposes only and that ancient people only lived to about 30 years old!!

This is demonstrably false. Sure, the "average" life span was about 30 years but that was largely due to infanticide (it sounds horrible, but that was how they made sure the group had enough food to survive). It wasn't until the advent of agriculture that we took a sharp decline in average lifespan and overall health as evidenced by the the fossil record (hunter-gatherers for millions of years were taller, lived longer and had much healthier bones and teeth than our grain dependent ancestors).
 

IOWN

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I've been playing with a bsl tester today...

3:24pm 4.9
3:48pm 4.8
4:06pm 6.2
4:21pm 7.1
4:43pm 6.6
4:55pm 5.5


The testers clock is set to the wrong time but it shows me when I wake up on the first test. Then I immediately ate beef roast, potatoes, carrots, onions (left overs) and drank lots of sugary juice, vaping my head off the whole time lol. The food I ate took about one hour to spike my bsl and the latest test shows it going back to normal. Looks good to me :) Yesterday when I got off work after eating nothing but cereal and drinking sugary coffee all day my bsl was 4.5 So Vaping my head off all day had no effect on my bsl. 80-20 pg-vg grape TPA flavor. FYI TPA uses EM and doesn't consider it to be a sweetener, so when they say sweetener free that doesn't mean there's no EM.

This is probably what a non-diabetic vapor should expect. I was worried for nothing lol, doesn't hurt to check though! well a little lol!

I'm sure if I tested myself with slightly higher VG 70-30 then my results would be pretty close, but I'm not diabetic. Just trying to live a healthy lifestyle and find my sweet spot!

Thanks all!!!!
 
SweetPuff, it really isn't any of my business what anyone else eats, I just think it is intellectually healthy to be able to approach any information, even that info we want to reject at it's face, with a presuppositionless approach. That's what science is all about. I hate to assume things, but my guess is that you don't feel comfortable switching from olive oil and such to animal fats or coconut oil. The rancid PUFA and stuff like linoleic acid (think furniture) in plant oils causes inflammation and just isn't good for us.

Whatever it is, I think it would be neat if you gave that thing you don't want to try a few days or a week and see how it is. I can attest to feeling full or not needing to eat more than 2 meals/day just by switching to healthy fats and getting rid of fructose (vs. snacking 24/7). Either way though, you know what is best for you and I won't go on about the whole diet thing.

As it relates to vaping, a lot of places will say that PG/VG totally won't move blood sugar. Maybe that is true, but I am going to try to look at this issue more from this other metabolic perspective. I'm sticking with my earlier statement that overall diet plays a bigger role, but the PG/VG have to be doing something.

IOWN, keep my first post above about new sweet receptors being discovered in mind, but EM is generally thought to be more of a flavor and not a sweetener. I just found this now too that was surprising.

It looks like maltol and EM can partially fit a sweet receptor, but actually acts as a taste enhancer, "Maltol lowers the detection concentration threshold for sucrose by a factor of two. The actual mechanism for the enhancing effects are unknown."
 
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mwa102464

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What are these BSL you are posting here, these numbers are surely not blood sugar levels, if they where you would be in a coma right now ? either I'm missing something here or your meter is not set correctly, you Blood sugar should be between 80-120 at normal levels IOWN, so can you explain what these numbers are you are posting please so I understand ?

I've been playing with a bsl tester today...

3:24pm 4.9
3:48pm 4.8
4:06pm 6.2
4:21pm 7.1
4:43pm 6.6
4:55pm 5.5


The testers clock is set to the wrong time but it shows me when I wake up on the first test. Then I immediately ate beef roast, potatoes, carrots, onions (left overs) and drank lots of sugary juice, vaping my head off the whole time lol. The food I ate took about one hour to spike my bsl and the latest test shows it going back to normal. Looks good to me :) Yesterday when I got off work after eating nothing but cereal and drinking sugary coffee all day my bsl was 4.5 So Vaping my head off all day had no effect on my bsl. 80-20 pg-vg grape TPA flavor. FYI TPA uses EM and doesn't consider it to be a sweetener, so when they say sweetener free that doesn't mean there's no EM.

This is probably what a non-diabetic vapor should expect. I was worried for nothing lol, doesn't hurt to check though! well a little lol!

I'm sure if I tested myself with slightly higher VG 70-30 then my results would be pretty close, but I'm not diabetic. Just trying to live a healthy lifestyle and find my sweet spot!

Thanks all!!!!
 

IOWN

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ECF Veteran
Aug 17, 2010
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Photo 8.jpg

so from top to bottom left to right it says...

14d n12
6.1
mmol
L
A

It's a Contour Bayer brand tester

I remember my mom telling me 14 is high and thats not good. A normal low in the morning should be no lower than 4.

This tester is made in Toronto Ontario Canada so metric???? idk
 

mwa102464

Resting In Peace
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Oct 14, 2009
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Outside of the Philadelphia Burbs, NJ & Fla
You must not have it set up properly because if your readings where correct and you where not a diabetic your reading should be coming in @ 80-120, check to see if your test strips have a certain number on them and if you have it set properly, the reading you are getting are not correct readings IOWN
 
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