Watts do not matter. Its all about wire temp. Read on

[Quigsworth]

Great post gdeal and there has also been some great adds by others...we should petition Kanthal to formulate a special 28g wire with the same resistive qualities of 30g...same surface and cross sectional area, same properties of thermal retention and conductivity.

Even though it's in the title of the thread, I believe ""watts do not matter" is more an attention grabber than anything because I think we all agree, watts matter a lot, and Willy taking the time to post the definition of a watt was a great add...

Although it's been touched on by many, thermal mass is a huge factor...we're heating more and more metal in our journey for better wicking, even flavour (from a more stable coil) and increased durability of a coil...we all seem to be stuck on the simplistic "Darwin" approach of set your watts and all things will be equal and in the world of chinese atty's and carto's that may actually be true as the thermal mass of all those devices is probably pretty similar...enter the rba...

gdeal spelling out the dispersion of watts over a given mass (even though he used square mm, close enough, we all use Kanthal and SS mesh, we get it) is important and something we should all be thinking of when we build...as much as I agree with slimmest and our walking away from efficiency in regards to heat production, I also prefer the big coil/big wick and take no issue with dumping big watts into it to get it to work, however, current is only one of the factors in the production of wattage, voltage being the other...if kanthal could reformulate a higher resistance 28g where we could ramp the V instead if the A...upping the voltage is safer, easier on out gear and for those building mods, cuts down on our conductor size to the device...of course the use of a VV mod is necessary

 

[gdeal]

Quigs..

Thanks for the reply. I have stated a couple of times in posts here what I meant by "watts do not matter". I did not realize that people would be so sensitive to a thread title. Yup.. is a bit on the attention grab side of things (very astute), but when read in context of the first post it should make sense or at least I thought it would. (If ECF would permit editing, I would go back and change it to something like "Watts are only part of the equation for comparing and replicating vapor experience and performance with genisis attys, it really is more about wire temp along with other factor such as thermal gradients, heat flux, etc" Realistically in hindsight it should have been posted as a question such as: Is Wire Temperature more relevant that Watts?

I think you hit the nail on the head here in your post. As you point out, "we all seem to be stuck on the simplistic "Darwin" approach of set your watts and all things will be equal". This sweet spot thing of quoting a watt level was a misdirection for me in my quest to understand this art. If you do a google search on this, you get like 15 thousand hits (https://www.google.com/search?q=swe...5df9d0db58cfce&bpcl=37189454&biw=1138&bih=532) Check out that rabbit hole.

So back to school I went...Physics 101. The information and variables always led back to the creation of measurable temperature field (Detailed at: AN EXAMPLE: THE TEMPERATURE FIELD) and then to validate and optimize with end user experience. Not realistically going to happen...so I went with wire temp/wire temp along the coiled wick.

Maybe I am just playing catch up here to the experts? But my intent was put this on the table and advance a better way to communicate how to get better atty/vape results.

Great suggestion on reformulating Kanthal! Think we can move the needle with them on a 5lb co-op order?

 

[Skyway]

Now if someone would want to make a tank that held a super coil horizontal, and it laid in the top part of the liquid in a holding tank, we would surely have something here in my opinion, I feel it would have to be a tank inside of a tank with the outer tank allowing liquid to come into where the coil was and the liquid pooled up into a pool and the coil sat there at the top part of the pool.

Not to go off topic and my input is not a rebuildable style, it does kind of fit your description in a small way. The AMP tank that is being developed by Avid kind of fits this bill. I know it is just putting an atty in a tank but in some ways, I feel the 357 is a small super coil, lol.

 

[gdeal]

Here is a good real life example ....of why "watts do not matter".. And when "watts really do matter"

In WillyB's post he makes an important distinction.

Cisco's demonstrate that tightly spaced, symmetrical coils using lower resistance wire provides a larger more consistent thermal zone for vaporization and can provide a user a better vape experience. IMO. Wick and wick coiling pressure is another factor (just as important, but lets put that off for this post).

Since Cisco's can be fairly consistent in production parameters, when comparing vape experiences with a Cisco, Watts really do matter because a lot of other variables can be eliminated. In the extreme case, if two users are in the same room, using the same type of equipment,juice and vape technique, they can compare their results and probably replicate their individual experiences by adjusting Watts and stating their "sweet spot is x". (They could probably just use Volts as well.)

For Gennys, set up configurations are similar to each other, but it will be difficult to ever get repeatable consistency. We all adjust our setup a bit differently. Some have perfectly rolled and rock solid #500 mesh wicks (not me...yet), some are using 32g, some are using 28g, etc. Some space out their coils some like-em tight...and a number of other differences as well.

The popular Cisco coils quickly come to mind.

Same ohms, which one is the Cisco?



From the early says of the Darwin craze the whole notion that we vape 'watts' stuck in my crow.

Thanks for pointing this out WillyB and for the technical explanation/discussion on Watts.

 

[mwa102464]

@ gdeal,

Where on the same page as far as the power sources for sure, We are all chasing the best possible vape, with that said, I feel the way we are going to move even more forward with ultimate vape is not only a better juice delivery system that the current Genesis provides us but also with Wick materials, this is where we are all going to get a better and maybe the ultimate vape, Ohms law, power sources, wire, Watts, volts is all a given at this point in my opinion,, its the juice delivery and wick materials we need to be thinking about more so at this point. Currently I'm using 28awg Kanthal @ 10 coils the size of a 3/32 drill bit witch I use to wrap my coils for Silica, and a bit different size for my different Genesis Attys,,Seems I'm always between .9ohm's - 1.5ohm's and between 6-10 Watts depending on juice, this is pretty much my sweet spot, making perfect coils & wicks using Silica & Mesh wicks, but juice delivery and wick material I believe can and will get better, and soon, This is where the advancements are going to happen more so than anything else ! just my personal opinion on this,, especially because we all dont vape the same volts/watt's so delivering the perfect amount of juice to the ultimate wick is where Vaping Bliss will advance more, all the rest still matters but it's a given or can easily be found by making adjustments of wire/volts/watts,, The juice delivery & wick is going to be the key

 

[urquidezj]

I have been using 30g kanthal on ky rebuildables sincei no longer have vv I must wrap at lr to get that hit I like. I ordered some 28g also but up until today I rolled a coil.
so this is on my spheroid.
first setup was tripple 2mm wick four wraps of 30g kanth
On a paps, hit amazingly. Lots of vapor nice warm
today j did double 3mm wick with 28g kanthal five wraps metered at 1 ohm
Not hitting as good on the paps. I would imagine it would be better. Will continue use of setup tomorrow to see if it needs break in
I don't like genis so cant comment on those.

 

[rusalka]

Micro pumps! maybe piezoelectric or just rare earth magnet + electromagnetic coil on a membrane that pumps juice up a tiny tube at a tuneable rate. We do have power y'know.

Anyway, nice thread. Glad I'm not crazy, I've been thinking for a couple of weeks now after getting a Phoenix RBA and wrapping coils for it and Vivi Nova and T2 heads that longer coils of fatter wires would make things better. If you go the other way you end up with pumping 8W into a laser point and all I can see is a flash of hot air with little vapor. Going the other way there must be some point where the power is spread just right to produce the most vapor.

I remember a while back there was a push for piezo pumps. I don't remember the thread, but it does exist in here somewhere.

 

[rusalka]

Been there done it Martinc, I came to the conclusion that to much wire is just as bad as not enough at a certain point, there is a happy medium to my findings in regards to wire and making coils for the standard Genesis Atty's we currently see on the market. The problem I run into is wicking with 12-15 coils in the heavier gauge wire, it came to a point I basically had to lay the coil in a puddle of liquid to get the proper vape. Now if someone came out with something more in the lines of those fog machines but a mini fogger that we used to vape, well then we may have something there, but these little tanks with a 2mm -4mm mesh wick just wasn't cutting it, I have laid my coils horizontal in a lot of liquid and had some very good results with my bigger super coils, but vertical they just cant keep up with wicking. Now if someone would want to make a tank that held a super coil horizontal, and it laid in the top part of the liquid in a holding tank, we would surely have something here in my opinion, I feel it would have to be a tank inside of a tank with the outer tank allowing liquid to come into where the coil was and the liquid pooled up into a pool and the coil sat there at the top part of the pool. Or, if using a vertical coil the same thing kind of, the wick coming straight up and sitting inside of a small surround filled with liquid that got filled up either by taking a draw or from an outer tank filling the inner where the big coil/mesh sits would be even better, so the bigger wire coil/mesh sat inside of a housing that was filled with liquid in order to wick enough mesh for a massive coil. I have some pretty good current designs and would enjoy getting with a new machinist to make a couple of Beta systems. Maybe someone will see this and do just that

I made a suggestion in another thread a ways back, for the modders to make an SS tube that screwed down over the mesh wick, this would work I feel with one of these bigger coils especially, that tube that covered the mesh wick could fill with liquid when holding your Genesis unit horizontal and house enough liquid in and around the mesh for these bigger coils to work/wick properly.

What about a horizontal wick grav feeding the liquid to the ends of the wick, that is one of my ideas. If I only had lathe and mill to bring that dream to life. Imagine what we could be vaping with right now.

 

[studiovap]

Micro pumps! maybe piezoelectric or just rare earth magnet + electromagnetic coil on a membrane that pumps juice up a tiny tube at a tuneable rate. We do have power y'know.

Anyway, nice thread. Glad I'm not crazy, I've been thinking for a couple of weeks now after getting a Phoenix RBA and wrapping coils for it and Vivi Nova and T2 heads that longer coils of fatter wires would make things better. If you go the other way you end up with pumping 8W into a laser point and all I can see is a flash of hot air with little vapor. Going the other way there must be some point where the power is spread just right to produce the most vapor.

Sounds like you need to get out to your garden shed zengargoyle and start building

 

[mwa102464]

Totally agree my friend rusalka, and has been my same thoughts for a long time now, as well as something new for wicks

 

[mwa102464]

I remember a while back there was a push for piezo pumps. I don't remember the thread, but it does exist in here somewhere.

The Piezo pumps where used in the Eclips Mods, and it actually worked very well, just needs to be self contained and liquid kept away from the electronics in a separate compartment in my opinion.

 

[mwa102464]

.............................................................................

I have been using 30g kanthal on ky rebuildables sincei no longer have vv I must wrap at lr to get that hit I like. I ordered some 28g also but up until today I rolled a coil.
so this is on my spheroid.
first setup was tripple 2mm wick four wraps of 30g kanth
On a paps, hit amazingly. Lots of vapor nice warm
today j did double 3mm wick with 28g kanthal five wraps metered at 1 ohmNot hitting as good on the paps. I would imagine it would be better. Will continue use of setup tomorrow to see if it needs break in
I don't like genis so cant comment on those.

...................................................................




Just a tip,,, try using a 3/32 drill bit, the smooth end, and take that 28AWG Kanthal and do 9-10 coils,wrapping the wire tight and pushing those coils together close and pulling on the lose ends with pliers to make your coil nice and tight, then use double 2mm wick, use a scrap piece of wire and loop your wick and put the wire in the loop to pull the double 2mm wick through your coil, this is how I do mine, works super !

 

[rusalka]

Totally agree my friend rusalka, and has been my same thoughts for a long time now, as well as something new for wicks

All I need to find is a machinist to build me a prototype to test it out. Care to help out on that part? Contact me via private measures to further this discussion.

 

[perlionsmitnick]

I remember a while back there was a push for piezo pumps. I don't remember the thread, but it does exist in here somewhere.

here you go

MicroBase Technology Corp.-Micro Piezoelectric Pump,Micro Pump,Nozzle plate,Inkjet Nozzle plate,Laser LIGA,Stamper,Micro electroforming,Micro laser welding,Micro continuous wave welding,Micro metal mesh,Metal mesh sprayer,Aluminum welding,Metal nozzl

 

[MadmanMacguyver]

really nice thread...

Me I was pushing a hella lot of power thru 5 ohm single coils at the beginning w a modded connector to allow a high airflow (it sure kept em from burning inside and they lasted a LONG time ) I just can't afford to keep buying stuff...I'm about to redesign one of my batt connectors again for the increased(and adjustable) airflow just to get my scubagen working perfect...

 

[the ob]

ok.

I have asked this before, and granted, I can be a little dense sometimes.

I mainly use non-vv devices. I currently have 325, 400 and 500 mesh.

I also have 28, 30, and 32 wire (kanthal).

My question is sort of basic. I try to get to about 1.5 generally. Do I want more or less wraps to get to that on the meshes and wires sizes I have?

I have read about 6/7 wraps etc. I have lived under the conventional wisdom that more wraps are cooler and less are hotter. I cannot seem to find my sweet spot on the meshes and wires I am using. Lets assume I am going to mainly use the #500 mesh. With the 28, 30 and or 32, how many wraps to get to the 1.5 I am looking for?

thanks!

 

[the ob]

please feel free to chime in.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ensions-wire-size-wraps-specific-devices.html

 

[gdeal]

ok.

I have asked this before, and granted, I can be a little dense sometimes.

I mainly use non-vv devices. I currently have 325, 400 and 500 mesh.

I also have 28, 30, and 32 wire (kanthal).

My question is sort of basic. I try to get to about 1.5 generally. Do I want more or less wraps to get to that on the meshes and wires sizes I have? This would be a personal preference, higher mesh can wick faster, I believe 28g provides a better vape.

I have read about 6/7 wraps etc. I have lived under the conventional wisdom that more wraps are cooler and less are hotter. I cannot seem to find my sweet spot on the meshes and wires I am using. Lets assume I am going to mainly use the #500 mesh. With the 28, 30 and or 32, how many wraps to get to the 1.5 I am looking for?

thanks!

The answer for how many wraps to get 1.5 ohms would depend upon the diameter of your wick. What are you running?

 

[the ob]

The answer for how many wraps to get 1.5 ohms would depend upon the diameter of your wick. What are you running?

so many different devices. A zenesis, a cobra, a spheroid among others. I guess I should use a multimeter and measure the wire out. Too many devices, too little time

 

[gdeal]

so many different devices. A zenesis, a cobra, a spheroid among others. I guess I should use a multimeter and measure the wire out. Too many devices, too little time

Ok got ya ....

For reference, Tommcatt put together a really helpful web page to figure out a number of variables for mesh, wire and power. The "how many coils to reach an amp level" calculator is in the middle of the page.

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