I've been wondering about the glowing coils burning the juice too. I tried a 2/3 wrap, and my lowest voltages would glow the coils. The hit was more harsh than the ss wicks, IMO, and the inside of the atty cover was coated with black residue. I quickly abandoned the 2/3 coil, at least until I understand how to control the heat.
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I haven't been that keen on the sub ohm idea, mainly because I didn't like messing with mesh. But with recently acquiring some ceramic wick that seems to keep up with the wicking demands I decided to try a sub ohm coil with it on a mechanical mod.
My setup was a ~0.6ohm 28g coil on a 1/8" wick
And I can say it was a very nice vape. I would say the vape was rich and warm, not harsh.
That said it could very easily get harsh with extended vape draws, or getting a dry wick.
But what I found was a nice vape that didn't require a long draw, it was an instant rapid sizzle that created a nice thick vape. It was more like an analog in the short draw length.
Viewing the coil under power didn't get red unless it was a long cycle or a dry wick.
So I'm going to have to agree with vaping vs smoking comparison, but disagree that a sub ohm coil must be burning/smoking the juice. Because it was very noticeable when that happened.
IMHO a 3/16" wick sub ohm coil on mechanical mod would probably be a very nice vape and the 3/16" wicks seem to have plenty of flow/capacity. I haven't tried it yet but a 1.5ohm 0.5mm ribbon coil on a 3/16" wick is lovely on my DNA mod at around 14-15 watts
Edit....I kind of finished without really stating my point
and that is as long as your vaporizing the juice and not getting glowing coils I think sub ohm coils are fine on that respect, batteries are a different story and another topic.
My setup was a ~0.6ohm 28g coil on a 1/8" wick
And I can say it was a very nice vape. I would say the vape was rich and warm, not harsh.
That said it could very easily get harsh with extended vape draws, or getting a dry wick.
But what I found was a nice vape that didn't require a long draw, it was an instant rapid sizzle that created a nice thick vape. It was more like an analog in the short draw length.
Viewing the coil under power didn't get red unless it was a long cycle or a dry wick.
So I'm going to have to agree with vaping vs smoking comparison, but disagree that a sub ohm coil must be burning/smoking the juice. Because it was very noticeable when that happened.
IMHO a 3/16" wick sub ohm coil on mechanical mod would probably be a very nice vape and the 3/16" wicks seem to have plenty of flow/capacity. I haven't tried it yet but a 1.5ohm 0.5mm ribbon coil on a 3/16" wick is lovely on my DNA mod at around 14-15 watts
Edit....I kind of finished without really stating my point
and that is as long as your vaporizing the juice and not getting glowing coils I think sub ohm coils are fine on that respect, batteries are a different story and another topic.
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That is playing with a very fine line, if I take a short draw I am ok, if my draw is a little longer it can get harsh (burn). If my battery is fully charged it is a shorter draw than when my battery is half charged, and all this playing with possible dangerous burnt fumes not to mention the battery story. If the coil wire gets red you are burning. The only reason I went to 28 or 30 was to get more coil area and thus more vapor, thru more surface area and not by higher wire temp. I even bought a mechanical, have built half a dozen low ohm setups and they are all harsh. One of the reasons I may go to a smoke meet someday is to try a low ohm somebody says is great and see if that is what I call vaping or something else. Maybe it is my long double draws, but that is how I smoked for over 50 years. I think the ceramics can be a good wick when they find one that wicks fast enough to replace the vaped juice on the coil. So far the FC2000 I have tried have not. Sure if you leave them loose in the wick hole and tilt you can vape with them.
I haven't been that keen on the sub ohm idea, mainly because I didn't like messing with mesh. But with recently acquiring some ceramic wick that seems to keep of with the wicking demands I decided to try a sub ohm coil with it on a mechanical mod.
My setup was a ~0.6ohm 28g coil on a 1/8" wick
And I can say it was a very nice vape. I would say the vape was rich and warm, not harsh.
That said it could very easily get harsh with extended vape draws, or getting a dry wick.
But what I found was a nice vape that didn't require a long draw, it was an instant rapid sizzle that created a nice thick vape. It was more like an analog in the short draw length.
Viewing the coil under power didn't get red unless it was a long cycle or a dry wick.
So I'm going to have agree with vaping vs smoking comparison, but disagree that a sub ohm coil must be burning/smoking the juice. Because it was very noticeable when that happened.
IMHO a 3/16" wick sub ohm coil on mechanical mod would probably be a very nice vape and the 3/16" wicks seem to have plenty of flow/capacity. I haven't tried it yet but a 1.5ohm 0.5mm ribbon coil on a 3/16" wick is lovely on my DNA mod at around 14-15 watts
Edit....I kind of finished without really stating my point
I agree 100% and I'm no longer running that setup for several reasons.
I just wanted to see what all the hype was about, and I think I got a good taste of why there is the hype. But like you said there is a fine line and plenty of drawbacks that I didn't want to constantly worry about.
Plus I am much happier using a DNA mod anyway for a variety of reasons.
I guess my post was more about a skeptic seeing the other side.
I hear you on the ceramic, but your opinion might soon change
I just wanted to see what all the hype was about, and I think I got a good taste of why there is the hype. But like you said there is a fine line and plenty of drawbacks that I didn't want to constantly worry about.
Plus I am much happier using a DNA mod anyway for a variety of reasons.
I guess my post was more about a skeptic seeing the other side.
I hear you on the ceramic, but your opinion might soon change
BJ....the short answer is that your wicking isn't keeping up with the coils. Believe me the richest, smoothest and best tasting vape is possible with sub ohm coils. Of course vaping style, whether you tilt and how much, and your juice come into to play.... but that also leads back to wicking in the end. Burning juice is very nasty and it is very obvious when your coils are glowing with sub ohm vaping so I don't think any one is doing that and not noticing it.
I completely agree with you, so what magical wick do you have that can keep up with a .7 ohm 2/3 wrap 28g on a fully charged 4.2 volt, pulling 6 amps and putting out 25 watts. All that on about an inch of wire. I will believe your richest, smoothest when I have tried one, all I ever get is very harsh and really don't think it is healthy. As for flavor, I like flavor not heat. I think I know a little bit about wicking, keeping up is why I introduced the 500 mesh and the 635, keeping up is why I now just use hemp. On the above example I can assure you that to my taste buds, 25watts on 10 wraps of 28g at 2.6ohms at 8v 3 amps is much smoother , more vapor and better flavor and have no fear of a battery blowing up in my face.
Most people with most mech mods aren't going to get that 4.2v on a fresh charged batt, especially with the cheap china mods. The voltage will drop under load too much due to lost conductivity
Even 3.6v is 18.5 watts and over 5 amps. Pretty sure the wire temp is way over the necessary for safe vapor. All the defenders of low ohms always mention, tipping, tilting to assist wetting the coil, and what happens if I forget to tilt, "harsh hit", how many harsh hits can we absorb, are they cumulative like concussions? Is this a macho thing, "I can vape the hottest coil out there." This thread is about wire temp and its relationship to vapor production, watts really don't mean much, 15 watts on one inch of 28g may be too hot and burn juice, but 15 watts spread out on 3 inches of 28g may be perfect as the wire temp is much less. I will shutup now on sub ohm as it really saddens me. Like jumping from the pan into the fire.
BJ...Maybe I am wrong but I sense a lot of hostility from you. Did you come to this thread to have a discussion or maybe even learn something or did you come here to pick a fight with people? You are basically implying that every one who vapes a sub ohm coil is dumb and doesn't recognize they are burning their juice. No one likes harsh hits and no one likes burning juice.....if people experienced that on a regular basis they wouldn't be vaping low ohms.....unless they are stupid.
Ok...back again...the thread here is about power densities and wire temp. The higher the power density, all else being equal, the more likely you can burn your juice. The risk goes down with proper juice delivery. Regardless of how you are getting the right amount of juice to the coil, it doesn't matter. However, you can also have the best wicking material in the world and if you dont have your coils set up right, you can burn your juice. High ohms or low ohms.
Almost everything else is personal style/preference (hot vape/cool vape/power hits/long draws, etc). Most likely if you are looking at a thread in a modding section you understand the general factors around vaping. And if someone made it through the first post in this thread and continued reading, they probably have a good understand of the power/resistance issue as well. (or at least I hope they do... )
Almost everything else is personal style/preference (hot vape/cool vape/power hits/long draws, etc). Most likely if you are looking at a thread in a modding section you understand the general factors around vaping. And if someone made it through the first post in this thread and continued reading, they probably have a good understand of the power/resistance issue as well. (or at least I hope they do...
)No hostility, just stating my opinion. I do my tests and post them each can take what they want from them. Never have called anyone dumb, here or anywhere. I did not come to this thread to argue, and have been on it since the beginning (post #2). I consider this one of the most important threads here.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/330407-500-ss-mesh.html#post9399602
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/modding-forum/330407-500-ss-mesh.html#post9399602
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@BJ....well obviously I don't have magic wick. I use SS mess, sillica, and cotton for SLR coils. I prefer the silica by far but that is my personal preference. With ss mesh I like comfortably rolled wicks with a hole in the center and I leave them unoxidized. I never got an added benefit from a very tightly wound wick or very bulky wicks mainly because I naturally tilt to horizontal position and use mostly PG juices (80/20).
I am currently vaping on a 1.0 ohm coil.....my voltage drop is 0.3v....so on a fresh battery I am vaping at 15 watts. Its 6 wraps around a 2.4mm drill bit....I like to do my wraps super tight where the coils are touching each other. I forgot to mention the wick is 2mm silica....doubled up at the coil. Just to test it out I did 4 ten second burns pretty much back to back (holding the unit horizontal) and I got no glowing coils. I set up the Cobra to no lower than 0.9ohms because the wick hole is very small and I have to make the wicks very thin....so there is little heat sink effect. Also the cobra has a 1mm air hole which makes it vape hotter than most gennies. I have top fed gennies that I like to set it up at 0.8 ohms (they vape at 17watts) and that is still a cooler vape than the Cobra.
If I remember correctly you don't like to tilt and you use 100%vg juices....so for a person like you this might never work. It seems you find more pleasure in a cool vape...while people who vape slr coils like a warmer vape. You like to take long drags but the SLR set ups are ment to be vaped like a cigarette. With a fresh battery I start with taking 1 second hits....as the battery winds down...2-3 second hits....when I start taking 4 second hits I change the battery. But the vape is never harsh and the throat hit is silky smooth to me....and the taste is excellent.
I am currently vaping on a 1.0 ohm coil.....my voltage drop is 0.3v....so on a fresh battery I am vaping at 15 watts. Its 6 wraps around a 2.4mm drill bit....I like to do my wraps super tight where the coils are touching each other. I forgot to mention the wick is 2mm silica....doubled up at the coil. Just to test it out I did 4 ten second burns pretty much back to back (holding the unit horizontal) and I got no glowing coils. I set up the Cobra to no lower than 0.9ohms because the wick hole is very small and I have to make the wicks very thin....so there is little heat sink effect. Also the cobra has a 1mm air hole which makes it vape hotter than most gennies. I have top fed gennies that I like to set it up at 0.8 ohms (they vape at 17watts) and that is still a cooler vape than the Cobra.
If I remember correctly you don't like to tilt and you use 100%vg juices....so for a person like you this might never work. It seems you find more pleasure in a cool vape...while people who vape slr coils like a warmer vape. You like to take long drags but the SLR set ups are ment to be vaped like a cigarette. With a fresh battery I start with taking 1 second hits....as the battery winds down...2-3 second hits....when I start taking 4 second hits I change the battery. But the vape is never harsh and the throat hit is silky smooth to me....and the taste is excellent.
@EDO, happy you have found your sweetspot. Don't agree with draw like on a cigarette, as many of us took long double draws on analogs, but what is important is you found what you like,
BJ....I know people who like cooler vapes and like to take longer drags......and they like to set up their 28g coils to 1.2-1.4ohms on their Provari. How does that compare to your 10 wrap/2.6 ohms/25watts set up? BTW what device is that set up on? I have set up 9 wrap (1.8ohms) set ups on my Vamo but it would take forever for it to kick.
I do not use 10 wrap 25 watts normally , just used it as an example, I normally use a oval coil, 4mm x 2mm 6/7 wraps around two parallel 2mm bits or toothpicks, 2.1 ohm on 28g or 2.4 ohms on 30 g at 9 to 12 watts, with 4mm of hemp thru the coil and 2mm of hemp overwick (flavor). The oval lets me make a large coil for a small space like in the Vivi or the A7. I use a lot of stepdown PTs with a 12v/24v source, some with up to 10 amp capacity for testing.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-oval-coil-1mm-hemp-wick-11.html#post8084383
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-oval-coil-1mm-hemp-wick-11.html#post8084383
I never could get a 28g coil at 2 ohms to be responsive on my vamo....I don't know if my Vamo is a lemon or what. How is the response rate of your 28g builds?
This is off topic but I am very intrigued with what you mean by overwick and how that works out. I am not sure I saw that in your oval coil thread. Is it only for the vivi novas or can it be used in a genny? I will post my questions in that thread so as not to hijack this thread...thanks.
This is off topic but I am very intrigued with what you mean by overwick and how that works out. I am not sure I saw that in your oval coil thread. Is it only for the vivi novas or can it be used in a genny? I will post my questions in that thread so as not to hijack this thread...thanks.
what a thread.. Temperature is the weak point of all designs as you said, wire guage, length and cooeficient matter as well, as does how wet your wick is, but one factor I haven't seen that is a large part of temperature is air draw and air delivery around the coil. A strong free air flow will cool off a coil considerably, only second to having it flooded with liquid.
That is the weak point of the rather crude method of using a coil wire heating element. Especially a coil element that can and will easily hit 1500+ degrees F. Basically we fool around with coils and voltages/wattages to try to get a consistent temperature under our individual conditions of wick wetness, our particular air flow, and we time our button presses as we learn and modify our air draw strength to modulate temperature manually as we vape.
I kinda got drawn to this thread as I have decided to experiment with exact electronic temp control myself. I'm in the process of building a mod that should be able to limit the coil to a hopefully fairly exact user set temperature among other possible settings like voltage or wattage settings so I can choose wattage control, voltage control, or temperature control..
I know it is possible but the devil is in the details or in this case the implementation. My implementation as it is being developed right now will throw about 15-20 watts into whatever coil you put on it, wet or dry, high ohm or low, but in a dry coil it will back off those watts to next to nothing in a blink of an eye, for a flooded coil it'll pour on 20 watts until it can achieve the set temperature. Same with air draw, if you draw a lot, it'll compensate with more power, if you stop drawing air through with the button pressed it'll back off to a fraction of a watt to maintain the set temp.
We'll see how it goes, I should have a prototype functioning in about a month or two.
That is the weak point of the rather crude method of using a coil wire heating element. Especially a coil element that can and will easily hit 1500+ degrees F. Basically we fool around with coils and voltages/wattages to try to get a consistent temperature under our individual conditions of wick wetness, our particular air flow, and we time our button presses as we learn and modify our air draw strength to modulate temperature manually as we vape.
I kinda got drawn to this thread as I have decided to experiment with exact electronic temp control myself. I'm in the process of building a mod that should be able to limit the coil to a hopefully fairly exact user set temperature among other possible settings like voltage or wattage settings so I can choose wattage control, voltage control, or temperature control..
I know it is possible but the devil is in the details or in this case the implementation. My implementation as it is being developed right now will throw about 15-20 watts into whatever coil you put on it, wet or dry, high ohm or low, but in a dry coil it will back off those watts to next to nothing in a blink of an eye, for a flooded coil it'll pour on 20 watts until it can achieve the set temperature. Same with air draw, if you draw a lot, it'll compensate with more power, if you stop drawing air through with the button pressed it'll back off to a fraction of a watt to maintain the set temp.
We'll see how it goes, I should have a prototype functioning in about a month or two.
This sounds impressive, I look forward to hearing more about a functioning prototype.
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