Well, my mechanical mod went BOOM.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ryedan

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2012
12,869
19,652
Ontario, Canada
Thermal run away is a lot different then a dead short

Thermal runaway refers to a situation where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature, often leading to a destructive result. It is a kind of uncontrolled positive feedback.
Full Definition of DEAD SHORT CIRCUIT. : an electrical short circuit of great magnitude arising from large firm contact.

Agreed.

So, there you have it, again as I mentioned previously testing outside of a mod will not yield the same results as inside a mod.

I agree, but I don't understand your point BlkWolfMidnight. Of course testing outside of a mod will not yield the same results as inside a mod, but what does this have to do with the relationship between thermal runaway and dead shorts? A dead short is one situation that can cause thermal runaway or battery venting. Done deal.

With that being said, mechanical mods are nothing to be afraid of in any way as long as CARE IS TAKEN to maintain them and check that you've properly locked it down when transporting the device.

As I've said before, we can take all the care needed and do all the maintenance needed and something out of our control can still happen to cause a dead short in any mod. One of the things that can happen is that we make a mistake. We might consider this as in our control, but humans make mistakes, so being able to eliminate this eventuality is impossible. Regulated mods have more protection from this scenario than mechanical mods so there is less risk with them, but mechanical mods rely on us alone to be safe which makes them more of a risk.

I've spent a good number of years designing production machinery. Operator safety is one of the most important things to consider when doing this. If there is any way the device can hurt someone, you have to understand that process and minimize the risk to the point that it is negligible. If you don't do this from a design standpoint, you as the designer are at fault for not doing your job correctly.

I vape mech mods 24/7. I know the risks I take and I do what I can to mitigate those risks. I also count on making a mistake eventually. As I've said in previous posts, my last failsafe is using batteries that will not burn or explode if I make that mistake.

Mech mods are more risky than regulated mods and IMO there is nothing that will ever trump that.
 
Last edited:

beckdg

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 1, 2013
11,018
35,706
TN
Doesn't matter if it was a fake battery or not, doesn't matter if it was a .2 or 3.5ohm build...

If you put a mech mod into auto-fire and leave it eventually the battery will be overtaxed and run away, period.
I disagree vehemently on the grounds that one of these builds will over heat the battery and the other could be considered a safe way to completely discharge a battery for safe disposal.

Sent from my device.
 

beckdg

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 1, 2013
11,018
35,706
TN
pfffff.... I don't even want the money, send me batts and I will make a video to see what they test down to...
Then imho, there's a very good chance your tests will be completely useless.

If I'm going to rely on battery tests performed by a third party... or even refer to them at all... I want to know they were tested when they present the highest danger... When the energy density and output potential are at their highest... When the cells are brand new... say within the first 5 or so charge cycles.

Sent from my device.
 

beckdg

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 1, 2013
11,018
35,706
TN
It would probably cost me the price of 5 batteries to ship one across the pond...or anywhere for that matter... so it's sort of out of the question anyway :)
Seemed to me there was a discussion including a collective effort. In that scenario I could see at least one person sending an old cell. Hence my response.

Sent from my device.
 

BlkWolfMidnight

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 20, 2012
736
819
Virginia
Agreed.



I agree, but I don't understand your point BlkWolfMidnight. Of course testing outside of a mod will not yield the same results as inside a mod, but what does this have to do with the relationship between thermal runaway and dead shorts? A dead short is one situation that can cause thermal runaway or battery venting. Done deal.



As I've said before, we can take all the care needed and do all the maintenance needed and something out of our control can still happen to cause a dead short in any mod. One of the things that can happen is that we make a mistake. We might consider this as in our control, but humans make mistakes, so being able to eliminate this eventuality is impossible. Regulated mods have more protection from this scenario than mechanical mods so there is less risk with them, but mechanical mods rely on us alone to be safe which makes them more of a risk.

I've spent a good number of years designing production machinery. Operator safety is one of the most important things to consider when doing this. If there is any way the device can hurt someone, you have to understand that process and minimize the risk to the point that it is negligible. If you don't do this from a design standpoint, you as the designer are at fault for not doing your job correctly.

I vape mech mods 24/7. I know the risks I take and I do what I can to mitigate those risks. I also count on making a mistake eventually. As I've said in previous posts, my last failsafe is using batteries that will not burn or explode if I make that mistake.

Mech mods are more risky than regulated mods and IMO there is nothing that will ever trump that.

Dead short may or may not cause an exothermic reaction enough to bring the battery to superheat and vent, there are several ways to cause a thermal runaway to include taxing a battery beyond its amp limit, dead short is not the only way here to do that. Also not all cases in a dead short will result in a thermal runaway, if the connection is solid enough it may cause internal meltdown of the carbon rod inside the battery which would result in only a minor temperature spike, also the battery may not even do that depending on if any of the internal workings are instantly damaged and fail abruptly. You are right though one can lead to the other, I was just posting definitions for anyone new reading this thread to understand some of the terminology being tossed around. I wouldn't expect everyone to know high level tech talk if I started that up so I figured on the same here. Just was trying to be nice is all.

Testing in the environment that the battery would be in will yield a more accurate result is all I'm pushing here, if the battery is inside the mod when your using it then the same should be for testing it as well. I know in the lab the idea was to produce the same result twice and then document it, we surely didn't change the parameters or in the case of cultures type of petri dish used and temperature it was cultured at in the middle of the experiment and call it a successful find. That is really my point on that one that the data collected on an open air dead short experiment is incomplete.

I've used mechanical mods for 5 years myself, and in those 5 years I may have had one incident that concerned me however nothing much came of it. My fear is that people new and some experienced will walk away with this "Fear of the unknown" happening with their mechanical mods. It really isn't like that and please don't take away that from this thread, just understand what your getting in to and what "Could" happen at the worse case, the OP had the worse case happen to him but that does not qualify a constant pre determined failure for ever mechanical out there. My harping on taking precautions has never said "You'll eliminate 100% possibility" nor would I ever state that in fact, you have to understand that it is still there and may still happen, you can reduce that possibility though by taking some time out to check and verify is all I'm saying in that.

I fully understand what your saying about relying on us to ensure the safety of the operation which by default is a failure point as no one is going to be 100% able to prevent the accidents and general mis steps. Yes knowing what your getting in to and education will greatly reduce the chance of the common issues happening and in reality this feedback that everyone posted that is "Helpful" will hopefully advise some of the newbies on the things to look for and some general maintenance tips and tricks. Together we all learn and this is the truth of life, learn from others mistakes will advance everyone as I'll admit it there are a number of things I learned from this thread that I was doing wrong myself. For that I'm grateful for everyone that posted advice, thank you. :)
 

invisiblehand13

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Nov 15, 2014
847
626
Woodville, WI
Then imho, there's a very good chance your tests will be completely useless.

If I'm going to rely on battery tests performed by a third party... or even refer to them at all... I want to know they were tested when they present the highest danger... When the energy density and output potential are at their highest... When the cells are brand new... say within the first 5 or so charge cycles.

Sent from my device.

Who said peeps aintz gonna sendz brand new batts???? I even saidz I didn't wantz the money...pffff, you okay this morning beck??? I miss your humor:(
 

ian-field

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 3, 2013
443
121
Hertfordshire
But enough to burn clothes and flesh perhaps if you had your mod in a pocket?

T

Unless you were dropped on your head an awful lot of times when you were little - the several minutes of fairly boring fizzing should alert you to the need to take action.

Most of the burns people have got from lithium accidents were caustic - not thermal.

AFAICR; the electrolyte is an organic alcohol - it probably gets contaminated with caustic electrode material as they disintegrate in the final stages, but that's about it.

If the scaremongers weren't exaggerating by a *MASSIVE* amount - the terrorists would be using the batteries to blow people up, and every developed nation would've banned them by now.
 

beckdg

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Oct 1, 2013
11,018
35,706
TN
Who said peeps aintz gonna sendz brand new batts???? I even saidz I didn't wantz the money...pffff, you okay this morning beck??? I miss your humor:(

no humor

honestly, i'd love to see you do the experiments.

though, i'd much rather you accept money and purchase new batts from trusted sources that we all buy from. new, fresh stock, etc, etc.

me has da issuez with trusting the collective... weak link... chain... etc.

that is all. it's not about you in any way. just like i don't want the wife driving around in the snow with the kids in the car. i trained her for extreme maneuvers in no traction scenarios... but there are a lot of idiots on the road....
 

ian-field

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Dec 3, 2013
443
121
Hertfordshire
And how did they know to look for proper venting? Experience and knowledge from studying up and such.

Venting is an issue that the electronics industry addressed not long after WW2.

Electrolytic capacitors were getting bigger and rated for higher voltage, there were numerous incidents of faulty or abused units building up a head of steam and firing the aluminium can like a bullet. Injuries were becoming increasingly common, quite a few service technicians lost an eye - a few lost their life.

If you examine equipment like a PC motherboard, you'll notice that most of the electrolytic capacitors have a crease stamped into the top of the aluminium can - this is to deliberately weaken it so it can vent safely if it builds up a head of steam.

As far as I know; the safe venting device in capacitors has passed into legislation in most developed countries, any country without such legislation still has to comply with it if they want to export to one that does.

Its inconceivable that similar requirements wouldn't exist for steel cased lithium batteries - however, this might not apply to counterfeit batteries!
 

tj99959

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
  • Aug 13, 2011
    15,116
    39,600
    utah
    Venting is an issue that the electronics industry addressed not long after WW2.

    Electrolytic capacitors were getting bigger and rated for higher voltage, there were numerous incidents of faulty or abused units building up a head of steam and firing the aluminium can like a bullet. Injuries were becoming increasingly common, quite a few service technicians lost an eye - a few lost their life.

    If you examine equipment like a PC motherboard, you'll notice that most of the electrolytic capacitors have a crease stamped into the top of the aluminium can - this is to deliberately weaken it so it can vent safely if it builds up a head of steam.

    As far as I know; the safe venting device in capacitors has passed into legislation in most developed countries, any country without such legislation still has to comply with it if they want to export to one that does.

    Its inconceivable that similar requirements wouldn't exist for steel cased lithium batteries - however, this might not apply to counterfeit batteries!

    See the vent holes?
    3-7V-Li-ion-18650-Battery-18650-Charger.jpg
     

    supertrunker

    Living sarcasm
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Oct 12, 2012
    11,151
    52,107
    Texas
    Unless you were dropped on your head an awful lot of times when you were little - the several minutes of fairly boring fizzing should alert you to the need to take action.

    Most of the burns people have got from lithium accidents were caustic - not thermal.

    AFAICR; the electrolyte is an organic alcohol - it probably gets contaminated with caustic electrode material as they disintegrate in the final stages, but that's about it.

    If the scaremongers weren't exaggerating by a *MASSIVE* amount - the terrorists would be using the batteries to blow people up, and every developed nation would've banned them by now.

    I'm sure it's important to differentiate between a thermal burn and a caustic one unless you are the recipient. With a mod in your pocket.

    T
     

    invisiblehand13

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Nov 15, 2014
    847
    626
    Woodville, WI
    no humor

    honestly, i'd love to see you do the experiments.

    though, i'd much rather you accept money and purchase new batts from trusted sources that we all buy from. new, fresh stock, etc, etc.

    me has da issuez with trusting the collective... weak link... chain... etc.

    that is all. it's not about you in any way. just like i don't want the wife driving around in the snow with the kids in the car. i trained her for extreme maneuvers in no traction scenarios... but there are a lot of idiots on the road....

    Okay wellz all things considerz I WILL needz da money peeps...send me moneyz!!!!! lol
     

    ian-field

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Dec 3, 2013
    443
    121
    Hertfordshire
    I'm sure it's important to differentiate between a thermal burn and a caustic one unless you are the recipient. With a mod in your pocket.

    T

    If you don't take it out of your pocket by the time the casing is hot enough to blister your leg - you're probably on the upper threshold of how many times you could be dropped on your head when little without it proving fatal.

    I've had Ni-Cd cell pack go critical in my back pocket - obviously not as dangerous as lithium cells, but I noticed the hot feeling long before they got anywhere near venting.
     

    supertrunker

    Living sarcasm
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Oct 12, 2012
    11,151
    52,107
    Texas
    If you don't take it out of your pocket by the time the casing is hot enough to blister your leg - you're probably on the upper threshold of how many times you could be dropped on your head when little without it proving fatal.

    I've had Ni-Cd cell pack go critical in my back pocket - obviously not as dangerous as lithium cells, but I noticed the hot feeling long before they got anywhere near venting.

    Well, i appreciate the kind words, but i did make a post earlier in the thread suggesting that a quick-release mechanism for batteries in tube mods might be a good idea.

    I'm not remotely surprised that you had batteries go critial in your back pocket, since, if i recall you source them by what is called in the US 'dumpster-diving'.

    T
     

    ian-field

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Dec 3, 2013
    443
    121
    Hertfordshire
    Well, i appreciate the kind words, but i did make a post earlier in the thread suggesting that a quick-release mechanism for batteries in tube mods might be a good idea.

    I'm not remotely surprised that you had batteries go critial in your back pocket, since, if i recall you source them by what is called in the US 'dumpster-diving'.

    T

    I'd used an experimental charger.

    It worked very well - but I should've confined it to reviving cells and not used it for routine charging.
     

    yankeebobo

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jun 23, 2012
    7,046
    21,034
    Western MA
    A mod got hot, in someones pocket, the op took liberty to run off to a clear place and deal with it. Was the op lucky? yes. Because nobody else got hurt. Nobody got hurt.

    There are lessons to be learned here. Shorts, accidents, cleaning the mods, taking care of batteries, etc. There are so many shortcuts that are taken by many. And there are many things that happen due to the fault of the battery, the mod, etc. There are authentic mods that can fail, clones that are not made of the same material and fail, batteries that fail. This list goes on.

    In this thread I read so many bashing the op. Or how this is unacceptable that this is the third exploding post.

    I believe that it takes courage to post about this. It constantly brings awareness to a dangerous topic. In todays day how many vape at sub ohm levels? And we want to bash the op?

    Let anyone that experiences this post. Raise awareness. Seek guidance if needed to where they may have failed. Share with others the take aways. Don't bash. Because even though you have knowledge, hope it doesn't happen to you.
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread