What did Jesus have to say about the rapture?

[HyOnLyph]

Awesome! LOL! It is sometimes so hard for us to wrap our heads around the concept of the Rapture. I mean come on one second you're washing dishes and the next you are standing in front of Jesus! But God can do all things and His ways are not ours. I just trust in Him. Its all we can do.

I don't wash dishes..... do I still get to go? (JK.... [lightening just missing my foot].)

 

[cheymat]

I don't wash dishes..... do I still get to go? (JK.... [lightening just missing my foot].)

Ok i really LOLd on that one! here is one....... one second your taking a shower............

 

[HyOnLyph]

Yeah... OK ... ya got me on that on that one. It applies....... on Saturdays.

 

[providencewouldhaveit]

O.k. I didn't look at this post for a couple of days because I knew it was going to be a hard one to go into. I and my family were raised in churches that were dispensational about end time beliefs. We were thouroughly indoctrinated but we all at different times changed our point of view. I think some misunderstood the statement about 140 years. The 140 year statement was about the Scofield study bible (we all owned one back then). It has been out about 140 years and it was the first bible to introduce dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is the way a majority of Baptists believe about the end times & rapture. I personally listened to over 15 minutes of the mans message but didn't really like the fact that he didn't get down to brass tacks very quickly. Just give me a summary and I'll tell you if I agree with it or not. I have spent a lot of time studying Revelations personally and have read many commentaries and books on the subject as well as having heard many preachers on the subject over 45 years. I can tell you I still don't fully understand everything about the end times nor do I believe that I will this side of heaven. As far as full dispensationalism I find some passages of scripture that dissagree. Those who get the feeling that Christians may have to go through tribulation before rapture also do not agree 100% with full blown dispensationalism. You are right about not getting your doctrine from one man but that is exactly the point about dispensationalism it came from one mans teaching.

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:
Mar 13:6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mar 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
Mar 13:8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.
Mar 13:9 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.
Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
Mar 13:12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Mar 13:15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
Mar 13:16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
Mar 13:17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mar 13:18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Mar 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
Mar 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mar 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Mar 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
Mar 13:29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

In theese passages you have three different gospels perspectives of one conversation. I may have cut off some just for brievety. It seems that some of the end time conversation of Christ to the disciples is about 70 A.D. while some of it may be later.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[providencewouldhaveit]

P.S. I go to a Independant Baptist church were a majority of the people are dispensationalist.
Here's the wiki on Dispensationalism:
Dispensationalism is a Protestant evangelical tradition [1] based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants. As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882) and the Brethren Movement.[2]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological "end times" perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Church,[3]:322 and that God has yet to fulfill His promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future result in a millennial kingdom where Christ, upon His return, will rule the world from Jerusalem[4] for a thousand years. In other areas of theology, dispensationalists hold to a wide range of beliefs within the evangelical and fundamentalist spectrum.[2]:13

With the rise of dispensationalism, conservative Protestants came to interpret the Book of Revelation as predicting future events (futurism), rather than predicting events that have taken place throughout history (historicism).[5][6][7]
Here's a link for the full article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

 

[cheymat]

Pseudo-Ephraem's Rapture Statement

I vividly remember the phone call at my office late one afternoon from Canadian prophecy teacher and writer Grant Jeffrey. He told me that he had found an ancient pre-trib rapture statement. I said, "Let's hear it." He read the following to me over the phone:

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

I said that it sure sounds like a pre-trib statement and began to fire at him all the questions I have since received many times when telling others about the statement from Pseudo-Ephraem's sermon On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World. Grant's phone call started me on journey through many of the substantial libraries throughout the Washington, D.C. area in an effort to learn all I could about this historically significant statement. The more information I acquired led me to conclude that Grant is right to conclude that this is a pre-trib rapture statement of antiquity.



Who is Pseudo-Ephraem?
The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual father and role model. His many works, some of doubtful authenticity, were soon translated from Syriac into Greek, Armenian, and Latin.

It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem." What is more difficult, though secondary to the main purpose of this article, is determining the exact date, purpose, location of, and extent of subsequent editorial changes to the sermon.

Suggestions on the date of the writing of the original sermon range from as early as Wilhelm Bousset's 373 date, to Caspari's estimation of sometime between 565 and 627. Paul Alexander, after reviewing all the argumentation, favors a date for the final form similar to that suggested by Caspari, but Alexander also states simply, "It will indeed not be easy to decide on the matter." All are clear that it had to have been written before the advent of Islam.



Pseudo-Ephraem's Sermon

The sermon consists of just under 1500 words, divided into ten sections and has been preserved in four Latin manuscripts. Three of these date from the eighth century and ascribe the sermon to Ephraem. A fourth manuscript from the ninth century, claims not Ephraem, but Isidore of Seville (d. 636) as author. Additionally, there are subsequent Greek and Syriac versions of the sermon which have raised questions regarding the language of the original manuscript. On the basis of lexical analysis and study of the biblical citations within the sermon with Latin, Greek, and Syriac versions of the Bible, Alexander believed it most probable that the homily was composed in Syriac, translated first into Greek, and then into Latin from the Greek. Regardless of the original language, the vocabulary and style of the extant copies are consistent with the writings of Ephraem and his era. It appears likely that the sermon was written near the time of Ephraem and underwent slight change during subsequent coping.

What is most significant for present-day readers is the fact that the sermon was popular enough to be translated into several languages fairly soon after its composition. The significance of the sermon for us today is that it represents a prophetic view of a pre-trib rapture within the orthodox circles of its day.

The sermon is built around the three themes of the title On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World and proceeds chronologically. The fact that the pre-trib statement occurs in section 2, while the antichrist and tribulation are developed throughout the middle sections, followed by Christ's second coming to the earth in the final section supports a pre-trib sequence. This characteristic of the sermon fits the first criteria outlined by William Bell, namely "that Christ's second coming was to consist of more than one phase, separated by an interval of years." Thus, phase one is the rapture statement from section 2; the interval of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, and 1,260 days, said to be the tribulation in sections 7 and 8; the second phase of Christ's return is noted in section 10 and said to take place "when the three and a half years have been completed."



Why Pseudo-Ephraem's Statement is Pretribulational
After learning of Pseudo-Ephraem's rapture statement, I shared it with a number of colleagues. My favorite approach was to simply read the statement, free of any introductory remarks, and ask what they thought. Every person, whether pre-trib or not, concluded that it was some kind of pre-trib statement. A few thought it was a statement from such pre-trib proponents like John Walvoord or Charles Ryrie. Most noted the clear statement concerning the removal of believers before the tribulation as a reason for thinking the statement pre-trib. This is Bell's second criteria for identifying a pre-trib statement from the past, namely, "any mention that Christ was to remove the church from the earth before the tribulation period." Note the following reasons why this should be taken as a pre-trib statement:

1) Section 2 of the sermon begins with a statement about imminency: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent [Latin "immineat"] or overhanging." This is similar to the modern pre-trib view of imminency and considering the subsequent rapture statements supports a pre-trib scenario.

2) As I break down the rapture statement, notice the following observations:

"All the saints and elect of God are gathered . . ." Gathered where? A later clause says they "are taken to the Lord." Where is the Lord? Earlier in the paragraph the sermon speaks of "the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion. . ." Thus the movement is from the earth toward the Lord who is apparently in heaven. Once again, in conformity to a translation scenario found in the pre-trib teaching.

The next phrase says that the gathering takes place "prior to the tribulation that is to come. . ." so we see that the event is pretribulational and the tribulation is future to the time in which Pseudo-Ephraem wrote.

The purpose for the gathering was so that they would not "see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of their sins." Here we have the purpose of the tribulation judgments stated and that was to be a time of judgment upon the world because of their sin, thus, the church was to be taken out.

3) Finally, the Byzantine scholar Paul Alexander clearly believed that Pseudo-Ephraem was teaching what we call today a pre-trib rapture. According to Alexander, most Byzantine apocalypses were concerned with how Christians would survive the time of severe persecution by Antichrist. The normal approach given by other apocalyptic texts was a shortening of the time to three and a half years, enabling the survival of some Christians. Unlike those texts, this sermon has Christians being removed from the time of tribulation. Alexander observed:

It is probably no accident that Pseudo-Ephraem does not mention the shortening of the time intervals for the Antichrist's persecution, for if prior to it the Elect are 'taken to the Lord,' i.e., participate at least in some measure in beatitude, there is no need for further mitigating action on their behalf. The Gathering of the Elect according to Pseudo-Ephraem is an alternative to the shortening of the time intervals.



Conclusion
Regardless of what else the writer of this sermon believed, he did believe that all believers would be removed before the tribulation-a pre-trib rapture view. Thus, we have seen that those who have said that there was no one before 1830 who taught the pre-trib rapture position will have to revise their statements by well over 1,000 years. This statement does not prove the pre-trib position, only the Bible can do that, but it should change many people's historical views on the matter.

Examining an Ancient Pre-Trib Rapture Statement

 

[providencewouldhaveit]

at 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[Dbeastro]

I feel that this is a really good defence for the pre-trib position from a very gifted bible teacher, Jack Kelly at Grace Thur Faith

GraceThruFaith

Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

Some body asked me a great question the other day. “Does Scripture actually promise a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or is it just an opinion passed along from teacher to student?” Then he challenged me to cite even one Bible verse that would lead a person to believe the Pre-Trib position if they hadn’t already heard about it from some Bible teacher. He said that in all his studies he’s not been able to find one. Let’s see if he’s right.

 

[trukinlady]

I've been to Jack Kelley's website, and read his teachings. No disrespect intended, but the Holy Spirit is telling me he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. His teachings closely parallel God's Word, but his teachings are skewed. It is just not quite right. I don't know why God chose to reveal this to me, but He has led me to post this.

God Bless!

 

[LisaLisa]

I feel that this is a really good defence for the pre-trib position from a very gifted bible teacher, Jack Kelly at Grace Thur Faith

GraceThruFaith

Defending The Pre-Trib Rapture (Again)
A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

Some body asked me a great question the other day. “Does Scripture actually promise a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, or is it just an opinion passed along from teacher to student?” Then he challenged me to cite even one Bible verse that would lead a person to believe the Pre-Trib position if they hadn’t already heard about it from some Bible teacher. He said that in all his studies he’s not been able to find one. Let’s see if he’s right.

I shortened your post so that you wouldn't get penalized for posting the whole article. We are only allowed to post a small part of the article, and then a link to the article itself.

 

[Dbeastro]

Sorry about that Lisalisa, I didn't know. I've been working with computers for 25+ years but I'm just now getting into the social aspect of it

trukinlady could you explain why you feel his teachings are skewed?

Thanks

 

[LisaLisa]

Sorry about that Lisalisa, I didn't know. I've been working with computers for 25+ years but I'm just now getting into the social aspect of it

trukinlady could you explain why you feel his teachings are skewed?

Thanks

Not a problem at all. I've had my wrist slapped for it more then once! LOL!!!!!

 

[HyOnLyph]

I've been to Jack Kelley's website, and read his teachings. No disrespect intended, but the Holy Spirit is telling me he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. His teachings closely parallel God's Word, but his teachings are skewed. It is just not quite right. I don't know why God chose to reveal this to me, but He has led me to post this.

God Bless!

Forgive me for butting in.... and I mean this in the most respectful way..... But if you believe God has revealed something to you and you don't know why, then you should keep it to yourself until he reveals why.

 

[LisaLisa]

Forgive me for butting in.... and I mean this in the most respectful way..... But if you believe God has revealed something to you and you don't know why, then you should keep it to yourself until he reveals why.

Sometimes, many times, God does not reveal why. But if a person has received a blessing in the form of understanding on something, it's a loving thing to do to share that insight with others. Whether or not the others agree, is up to each one individually.

 

[HyOnLyph]

Sometimes, many times, God does not reveal why. But if a person has received a blessing in the form of understanding on something, it's a loving thing to do to share that insight with others. Whether or not the others agree, is up to each one individually.

I agree that sometimes God does not reveal why. And in those times, it is not incumbent upon us to assume why. Or to propogate gossip or back biting simply because we don't know what to do with it. Especially when it is something negative about someone else. I would be a little less inclined to bring it up if she had said "God told me that this man was an honorable man." (although I suppose the principle would be the same.)

Yes LIsaLisa, I agree that IF it's a loving act, done in wisdom and according to scripture, then you have a point. But to call someone a "wolf in sheeps clothing" is an extremely serious thing in scripture. And to do it (speak it publicly) without proof and clear understanding as to why you think it... is irresponsible, in my opinion. I've been a believer for a long time and I've been in full gospel/charismatic/Spirit filled circles for over 30 years. (not that my longevity is any proof that I know what I'm talking about ) There has been far more gossip in the name of "God revealed it to me" than there has been real discernment. Or at the very least, real discernment and very little wisdom as to what to do with it, leading to destructive gossip. God is not so small that he has to reveal something negative about someone so that we could reveal it to others behind their back. This is completely contrary to scripture. If God reveals something and does not reveal why, then it is far more likely that he gave it to me solely for my own understanding, than it is that he gave it to me to proclaim it from the rooftops. To assume the latter, is close to arrogance.

 

[LisaLisa]

I agree that sometimes God does not reveal why. And in those times, it is not incumbent upon us to assume why. Or to propogate gossip or back biting simply because we don't know what to do with it. Especially when it is something negative about someone else. I would be a little less inclined to bring it up if she had said "God told me that this man was an honorable man." (although I suppose the principle would be the same.)

Yes LIsaLisa, I agree that IF it's a loving act, done in wisdom and according to scripture, then you have a point. But to call someone a "wolf in sheeps clothing" is an extremely serious thing in scripture. And to do it (speak it publicly) without proof and clear understanding as to why you think it... is irresponsible, in my opinion. I've been a believer for a long time and I've been in full gospel/charismatic/Spirit filled circles for over 30 years. (not that my longevity is any proof that I know what I'm talking about ) There has been far more gossip in the name of "God revealed it to me" than there has been real discernment. Or at the very least, real discernment and very little wisdom as to what to do with it, leading to destructive gossip. God is not so small that he has to reveal something negative about someone so that we could reveal it to others behind their back. This is completely contrary to scripture. If God reveals something and does not reveal why, then it is far more likely that he gave it to me solely for my own understanding, than it is that he gave it to me to proclaim it from the rooftops. To assume the latter, is close to arrogance.

I understand what you're saying, I really do. And I would agree with it if we weren't talking about a teacher, pastor, or someone holding a position of authority. A person must question the teachings of someone in authority in order to know if they are teaching correctly or not.

I didn't read his website, and I know nothing about this pastor at all, neither good or bad. But, if a brother or a sister believes that the teaching isn't right, for whatever reason, and they choose to share that with others, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. It's not gossip in my opinion to state your opinion about a teacher or his teachings. One might agree or disagree, but I think people should feel free to say what they want to say about it.

That's just my 2 cents

 

[HyOnLyph]

I understand what you're saying, I really do. And I would agree with it if we weren't talking about a teacher, pastor, or someone holding a position of authority. A person must question the teachings of someone in authority in order to know if they are teaching correctly or not.

I didn't read his website, and I know nothing about this pastor at all, neither good or bad. But, if a brother or a sister believes that the teaching isn't right, for whatever reason, and they choose to share that with others, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. It's not gossip in my opinion to state your opinion about a teacher or his teachings. One might agree or disagree, but I think people should feel free to say what they want to say about it.

That's just my 2 cents

I have no problem with ever questioning someone's teaching. In fact I encourage it. It isn't the teaching that she attacked. It was his integrity. She called him a "wolf in sheep's clothing" and said that God told her so. A wolf in sheeps clothing is a person who intentionally is misleading a flock in order to deceive them for his own gain (usually to destroy the flock). There is a huge difference between questioning his teaching and calling him that. I didn't read his stuff either. I really have no reason to. I'm not particularly intersted in more pre-trib / mid-trib / post-trib discussions. But truckinlady made an accusation under the guise that God told her so but didn't tell her to speak it or do anything with it.

the bible is very clear about what to do with someone who you think is in error. You go to them one on one. If that doesn't work, then you go to them with an elder. etc. If Truckinlady has no idea why God told her that he was a wolf in sheeps clothing... if she feels compelled to do anything (which is questionable) ... then she should go to him one on one. Scripture never says to make accusation publicly about someone when there is no evidence. And "God told me so", while it may be genuine, is not evidence.
That is why we are not to take our gifts (the Gifts of the Spirit) and use them to butcher one another. That is not the intention of the Gifts. If someone truly has a gift of dicernment of Spirits, then one should take the time to find the wisdom to use it without doing damage. The Gifts are given to edify, not to tear down.

I fully respect your opinion and I won't bother you further about this unless you have questions.
I really appreciate what you do here and I am so appreciative of your heart and efforts. I really mean that.
God bless you.

 

[LisaLisa]

I have no problem with ever questioning someone's teaching. In fact I encourage it. It isn't the teaching that she attacked. It was his integrity. She called him a "wolf in sheep's clothing" and said that God told her so. A wolf in sheeps clothing is a person who intentionally is misleading a flock in order to deceive them for his own gain. There is a huge difference between questioning his teaching and calling him that. I didn't read his stuff either. I really have no reason to. I'm not particularly intersted in more pre-trib / mid-trib / post-trib discussions. But truckinlady made an accusation under the guise that God told her so but didn't tell her to speak it or do anything with it.

the bible is very clear about what to do with someone who you think is in error. You go to them one on one. If that doesn't work, then you go to them with an elder. etc. If Truckinlady has no idea why God told her that he was a wolf in sheeps clothing... if she feels compelled to do anything (which is questionable) ... then she should go to him one on one. Scripture never says to make accusation publicly about someone when there is no evidence. And "God told me so", while it may be genuine, is not evidence.
That is why we are not to take our gifts (the Gifts of the Spirit) and use them to butcher one another. That is not the intention of the Gifts. If someone truly has a gift of dicernment of Spirits, then one should take the time to find the wisdom to use it without doing damage. The Gifts are given to edify, not to tear down.

I fully respect your opinion and I won't bother you further about this unless you have questions.
I really appreciate what you do here and I am so appreciative of your heart and efforts. I really mean that.
God bless you.

Thanks so much! I appreciate you too, all of you, so much, you have no idea. You guys lift me up spiritually every single day!!!!!!

One of the best things that we all share, is our love for Jesus, as that's the most important thing anyway. We can all agree to disagree on just about anything, but at the end of the day we still love eachother as brothers and sisters, and there isn't anything better then that!!!!

Blessings to you too HyonLyph, you're very much loved!

 

[trukinlady]

Forgive me for butting in.... and I mean this in the most respectful way..... But if you believe God has revealed something to you and you don't know why, then you should keep it to yourself until he reveals why.

I apologize for taking so long to respond. I've had a lot going on in my life lately. Now, to address your statement:

I posted what God laid on my heart to post. I don't know why He did so, only that He did lead me to post it. For His purpose. I wouldn't have done so otherwise, because it isn't about me or my opinions.

That being said, for clarity, I'll NOT address the other points that have been brought up in the thread in my next post.

 

[eHuman]

Choose your battles, choose your battles, choose your battles...

I'm just going to follow this and not comment, plenty enough good minds on the topic.

E