What do scientists think? – Konstantinos Farsalinos at Vapexpo 2016, Paris

[rokyo87]

Interesting article:

What do scientists think? – Konstantinos Farsalinos at Vapexpo 2016, Paris

I am a bit worried about this graph:

So if I vape 5ml/day M2L unflavoured e-liquid @ 10W (1.7 Ohm) is this equal to smoking almost a half a pack/day tobacco cigarettes?

And I am worried about this statement:

“The message I want to pass to vapers is that your consumption level defines the risk: the more you consume e-liquid, the more you will be exposed to toxicity, nicotine is no danger. Direct lung inhalation is pleasant but a risky pattern. At least you are aware about the risk”.

So how safer is D2L in comparison with tobacco cigarettes? 90%? 80%? 50%?

 

[sofarsogood]

Interesting article:

What do scientists think? – Konstantinos Farsalinos at Vapexpo 2016, Paris

I am a bit worried about this graph:

So if I vape 5ml/day M2L unflavoured e-liquid @ 10W (1.7 Ohm) is this equal to smoking almost a half a pack/day tobacco cigarettes?

And I am worried about this statement:

“The message I want to pass to vapers is that your consumption level defines the risk: the more you consume e-liquid, the more you will be exposed to toxicity, nicotine is no danger. Direct lung inhalation is pleasant but a risky pattern. At least you are aware about the risk”.

So how safer is D2L in comparison with tobacco cigarettes? 90%? 80%? 50%?

Dr. F is making the valid point that the amount of liquid you vape effects the risk. The graph does not address the overall risk of that particular substance or the risk of vaping compared to smoking. I've been vaping 7 ml's per day at 10 mg nic. I'd like to reduce nic so my stash lasts longer but I'd rather reduce daily ml's to about 3.5 ml per day to reduce lung irritation, however slight that might be. For some reason I'm not concerned about the toxic substances per se.

Another issue, harder to measure, is what percent of the vapor you inhale is actually absorbed. May be the cloud chaser vaping 30 ml's per day absorbs a lower percent of what's in the vapor than I do at 7 ml. Does the graph above measure what you absorb or just what's in the vapor.

Regardless, I agree with Dr. F. Daily ml's matter. Less is better for health than more regardless of toxic substances. But, again, how important are the differences to health and life expectancy? I have no plans to stop vaping.

 

[Verb]

There is absolutely no accounting for devices that move large volumes of air. 12ml/day at high voltage on a clearo has nothing to do with 30ml/day at high power on a properly built & wicked bigger air RDA.

Aldehydes have a very noticable bitter acrid flavor. A dry hit or hot leg will produce them. I avoid those situations.

 

[DaveP]

So, it's quickly metabolized and broken down into various chemicals that rapidly leave your body, but we have to wonder what effect it has while inside. In six years of vaping my doctor has only found high triglycerides and higher than normal blood sugar on fasting samples from a CBC blood test. Both are controlled - Trigs by medication and blood sugar by watching my diet. All other blood chemistry categories are normal.

ATSDR - Public Health Statement: Formaldehyde

1.4 How can formaldehyde enter and leave my body?

Enter your body

-inhalation
When you breathe air containing formaldehyde, most of the formaldehyde is quickly broken down in the cells lining your respiratory tract and breathed out. Only at high levels does formaldehyde enter your blood.

-Ingestion
Formaldehyde in food or water may also rapidly enter your body through the digestive tract.

-Dermal contact
A very small amount may enter through your skin when you come into contact with liquids containing formaldehyde.

Leave your body
Once in your body, formaldehyde is rapidly broken down into other chemicals. Most of these other chemicals quickly leave your body in the urine. Formaldehyde can also be converted to carbon dioxide and breathed out of the body.

 

[skoony]

I smoked two or more packs a day of full flavored menthol hundreds.
I guess I'm good to go as My juice use is around 3-5 ml.
Mike

 

[DaveP]

I smoked two or more packs a day of full flavored menthol hundreds.
I guess I'm good to go as My juice use is around 3-5 ml.
Mike

I vape two 4.5ml Kayfun tanks a day of 3ml nic at 7W to 10W. I didn't see any differential in the article between PG and VG or wattage considerations in creating Formaldehyde . Or, is the nic level the source?

The article questions Aortic stiffness being possibly caused by e-cigarettes. That's interesting to me because my doctor recommended an Aortic Cat Scan and Ultrasound earlier this year because I turned 65. I had it done and the results returned a normal Aorta with no stiffness or bulges. It's a condition where hardening and bulging occurs in some people and is attributed to sudden death when a bulge ruptures. At least I know mine is in good shape.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

4ml/day on a 1.8ohm coil at a blistering 8 watts. 18mg is about as low as I choose to go considering I started at 36. (I likes me some nicotine.)

But these days, I don't give a rat's azz about any more science be it pro, con or neutral. Nobody of any consequence is listening any more. I have attended far too many funerals of those inflicted with cancer to conclude that when your number's up... it's up. Mrs. Kodiak damn near bought the farm at age 33; healthiest gal in the woods at the time. My father died of lung cancer. 40 years smoke free but asbestos got him. Grandfather never smoked but inhaled too much coal pitch at the foundry. Countless others I could name (as could everyone else) that were shining examples of good, clean living who ultimately lost that battle.

I don't begrudge ex-smokers (us) trying to be smart about living healthier but just remember the habit we had prior to vaping and what we ingested.

How do you feel now?

Now we're fretting about MTL vs. DTL? Reminds me of people here who used to smoke a carton of Lucky's each day and now boil their cotton before re-wicking and never dry burn their coils.

 

[LaraC]

Something to consider when looking at the graph in the article:
This statement appeared near the end of the "Chemical studies" section of the article accompanying the graph, "The danger upon exposure to formaldehyde has to be relativized, however, since the compound is found everywhere in our environment. The WHO has set the upper limit of formaldehyde in clean indoor air to 2000 μg/day"

 

[sofarsogood]

The word vaping covers a lot of territory. There are so many variations in atomizers, power settings, liquid recipes, and daily ml's. Then there is individual health unrelated to vaping. Somebody somewhere probably has a vape that's high risk--for them. Vaping got me off smoking AND I enjoy it. I can't identify and quantify every conceivable risk. I can notice that doctors don't seem to treating illnesses related to using ecigs. Then I can be moderate. My DIY uses almost no flavoring. I won't let temp go past 400 degrees or max watts above 30. I would love to reduce daily ml's from 7 to half that, not easy it seems. I feel better, save a lot of money and no credible science persuades me to be even more cautious than I am already.

 

[Rickb119]

So, it's quickly metabolized and broken down into various chemicals that rapidly leave your body, but we have to wonder what effect it has while inside. In six years of vaping my doctor has only found high triglycerides and higher than normal blood sugar on fasting sample. Both are controlled - Trigs by medication and blood sugar by watching my diet. All other blood chemistry categories are normal.

ATSDR - Public Health Statement: Formaldehyde

I lowered my triglycerides from 450 to just under 100 in 2 years by radically changing my diet. Lost 50 pounds in the process too. Unfortunately, I rediscovered chocolate about a year ago and have added back a few of those lost pounds.

 

[Kent C]

The WHO has set the upper limit of formaldehyde in clean indoor air to 2000 μg/day"

That whole quote is:

The WHO has set the upper limit of formaldehyde in clean indoor air to 2000 μg/day, which is only three times lower than what inhales a vaper in Farsalinos’ experiment.

I assume lost in translation that the last clause is "which is only three times lower than what "a vaper inhales" in Farsalinos' experiment."

But I see no graph that shows that. The last formaldehyde graph shows vapor at 1695.2μg - lower than the 2000μg in regular air. (which is what most other studies have shown).

The graph just above the comment "Aldehydes according to power" shows the top figure at just above 3500μg (at 5 volts) where the 2000μg of air wouldn't be "three times lower that what a vaper (at 5 volts) inhales, but only 1.5 times lower??? And regular air level is much higher than vapers at lower voltages - eg. 500μg at 4.2V and negligible below that.

Dr F's earlier study:

E-cigarettes generate high levels of aldehydes only in ‘dry puff’ conditions - Farsalinos - 2015 - Addiction - Wiley Online Library

The title says it all:
"E-cigarettes generate high levels of aldehydes only in ‘dry puff’ conditions"

 

[dobroeutro]

4ml/day on a 1.8ohm coil at a blistering 8 watts. 18mg is about as low as I choose to go considering I started at 36. (I likes me some nicotine.)

But these days, I don't give a rat's azz about any more science be it pro, con or neutral. Nobody of any consequence is listening any more. I have attended far too many funerals of those inflicted with cancer to conclude that when your number's up... it's up. Mrs. Kodiak damn near bought the farm at age 33; healthiest gal in the woods at the time. My father died of lung cancer. 40 years smoke free but asbestos got him. Grandfather never smoked but inhaled too much coal pitch at the foundry. Countless others I could name (as could everyone else) that were shining examples of good, clean living who ultimately lost that battle.

I don't begrudge ex-smokers (us) trying to be smart about living healthier but just remember the habit we had prior to vaping and what we ingested.

How do you feel now?

Now we're fretting about MTL vs. DTL? Reminds me of people here who used to smoke a carton of Lucky's each day and now boil their cotton before re-wicking and never dry burn their coils.

My thoughts exactly...

 

[DaveP]

Rolygate has a post or blog on how to vape somewhere in the top of ECF that specifically instructs vapers not to inhale or at least not with regularity. The process he talks about is basically holding the vaper in your mouth to absorb the nic and alternately inhale just far enough into the throat to allow exhale through the nose. His reasoning is that we are using a vapor product that hasn't been thoroughly tested, so we can't really say it's completely harmless. I can't find it since the board software change, but I'm sure it's still here somewhere.

I try to use the mouth to nose exhale style, but I find myself doing the MTL inhale at least 50% of the time. It's ingrained in most of us to vape like we smoked.

 

[Rossum]

So if I vape 5ml/day M2L unflavoured e-liquid @ 10W (1.7 Ohm) is this equal to smoking almost a half a pack/day tobacco cigarettes?

Maybe in terms of formaldehyde, but you're still not getting all the other crap in smoke. Also keep in mind that the formaldehyde studies were done with atties that have terrible wicking and coils made of some absurdly thin wire. That's not what most of us use.

So how safer is D2L in comparison with tobacco cigarettes? 90%? 80%? 50%?

Good question. Did you D2L your cigarettes? I certainly did not. I think I'd already be dead if I had.

 

[choochoogranny]

Formaldehyde?......... I'll just save the mortician some time.

 

[Kent C]

Also keep in mind that the formaldehyde studies were done with atties that have terrible wicking and coils made of some absurdly thin wire.

And the in main 'problem studies' - there were three as Dr. F points out here:
The deception of measuring formaldehyde in e-cigarette aerosol: the difference between laboratory measurements and true exposure

- Roswell/Goniewicz
- Japan/Kunugita
- letter from New England Journal of Medicine/Jensen,Pankow, et al.

They all went to dry hits and beyond to create their 'formaldehyde scare'. Kurt, Dr. F., Polosa and others on our side, have debunked these studies individually and repeatedly. Even some major news media outlets finally figured it out. No (or very few) vapers go beyond anything that smells like a dry hit and many tanks and coils set ups have gone a long way of eliminating them. IF the innovation that is brought to a halt by the FDA deeming would be lifted, better solutions would be created for this and other safety issues.

 

[OldBatty]

Good question. Did you D2L your cigarettes? I certainly did not. I think I'd already be dead if I had.

Wife did. Certainly uncommon possibly even rare, but there are people who smoke that way. Have there been any polls on this? Will search myself after I hit send and edit if I find one.

Funny thing is we smoked as a couple for over 24 years and never noticed. Was only after I started reading this forum and playing with MTL and D2L that we realized the difference. Probably explains why I hated her ultra lights just as much as she hated my lights even when we smoked the same brand.

 

[DC2]

Have there been any polls on this?

This is an old one...
How do you Inhale?

Not sure if there are any newer ones.

 

[OldBatty]

This is an old one...
How do you Inhale?

Not sure if there are any newer ones.

Thanks! I um, got distracted by shiny squirrels Have read the two page thread you linked but not the five page one linked from there.

 

[DaveP]

Back in the 70s the EPA was all over out gassing from Formaldehyde in carpet and wall paneling. It's still all over our lives.

23 Sources of Formaldehyde In Your Home