what is worse for the environment analogs or ecigs

[rmasu]

good greif you did not really say you need a microscope to see the particles. What is your definition of breaking down, down to the elements?
We need to compare apples to apples.
If every smoker on the planet were using e-cigs instead of analogs there would be a LOT more pollution than the cigarette smoke and butts created now. Thats a lot of atomizers, batteries packaging, chargers, cords for the chargers, usb passthoughs etc. Also a lot of chemicals and energy making all thoes parts. And I agree with the other post, most users will use the carts and throw away, not use liquid like us. And dont forget the energy to power/charge all thoes e-cigs, adds up. We are talking about as dchrist721 says over 3 trillion of cigarettes a year.
The majority of people do not dispose of batteries properly, car batteries and power tools maybe, but a slim e-cig battery that looks like a bic pen. I dont think your friend on the garbage line can spot every battery that passes him. And lets remember, most of the world does not live with a garbage processing plant. And I dont think India, China and the rest of the smoking world has battery seekers looking for batteries through garbage. Remember the USA has the fewest number of smokers per population.
Also check your definition on biodegradable, biodegradable is for organic matter like bannana peels. Cigarette butts are biodegradable. They are cellulose acetate produced from wood pulp and degrade completely see study done by RJ reynolds, just kidding, journal of polymers and the environment, a referred journal. SpringerLink - Journal Article

Now I take everything with a grain of salt so this study may not be accurate, but I could not find another study, real study, that says otherwise. I did find lots of sites saying celulose acetate was not biodegradable like on treehugger.com., but no real science.
I also understand that 200 cigarette buts will kill a human if ingested, if some of the nicotine gets trapped in the .... what happens to the nicotine we exhale through vapor?
Don't get me wrong, I love my ecigs, but a naturally burning plant with a little cellulose acetate .... on the end does not equate to multiple lithium ion batteries, multiple atomizers, multiple chargers, and cords and juice etc etc.
My e-cig habbit has created a LOT more stuff than my pack of Marboros and matches.

 

[rmasu]

Sorry I forgot to add, cigarette butts are not fiberglass.

 

[rmasu]

Sorry forgot my ending point,
I you take all the energy needed to create what I need to smoke analogs for a month. Pack a day, that includes growing the tobacco, processing, packing shipping. Add the pollutants I make in the month, paper from packs little foil I pull off the pack, and of course the butts. And compare to what it take to keep me vaping for a month I think the answer is clear.
Factories in China making atomizers, juice, plastic mouthpieces, chargers cords, fancy packaging, BATTERIES, then flying them all to me. And like all of you I need multiple batts and atomizers. Charging the batts constantly, using a usb passthrough etc.

 

[KDMickey]

Sorry rmasu, but here's your evidence. I gotta side with DC on this one.

 

[rmasu]

Hey KDMickey,
I went to school in Denver, loved it.
Freakonimics is not a scientific journal. And I'm not arguing that 5.5 trillion cigs smoked causes a lot of smoke, my point is 5.5 trillion vapor cigs smoked may not make as much smoke, but thats a lot of equiptment in batteries, atomizers chargers power for the chargers power to make the e-cigs. Thats 5.5 trillion atomizers 5.5 trillion batteries 5.5 trillion chargers, and how many factories to make 5.5 trillion e-cigs. Just because our e-cigs are nice and clean compared to our analogs, ie no smell ashes smoke etc. We can't forget about the impact in manufacturing all the stuff we need to vape. How many tons of particulate are created to make 5.5 trillion e-cig starter sets, each with its nice packaging charger batts plugs, lots of it very poisionious thermal plastics and heavy metals. A lot is my guess.

 

[DCrist721]

good greif you did not really say you need a microscope to see the particles. What is your definition of breaking down, down to the elements?

If something is biodegradable then yes that means, that it gets broken down into it's individual elements by bacteria and other micro-decomposers. This is not my definition, it is the definition accepted by the scientific community. The fact that the filters break down into smaller parts doesn't make a difference to the environment, in fact, it's probably worse being smaller since if it's smaller it can now enter plants and be undetectable in water. All the toxic chemicals are still there and the entire mass of plastic will still be there. The filter is still completely there it's just mixed in with the matter around it. If you took a lithium battery and grinded it up into pieces so small that you couldn't see, that wouldn't make it any better for the environment. I take it you've never taken a chemistry course or an environmental science course?

We need to compare apples to apples.
If every smoker on the planet were using e-cigs instead of analogs there would be a LOT more pollution than the cigarette smoke and butts created now. Thats a lot of atomizers, batteries packaging, chargers, cords for the chargers, usb passthoughs etc. Also a lot of chemicals and energy making all thoes parts. And I agree with the other post, most users will use the carts and throw away, not use liquid like us. And dont forget the energy to power/charge all thoes e-cigs, adds up. We are talking about as dchrist721 says over 3 trillion of cigarettes a year.

That's your opinion, and these seem to be uneducated ones at that judging from the beginning of your post. Can you tell me what chemicals are used in the production of e-cigarette parts? There are tons of toxic chemicals that go into making cigarettes though, I can get you a list if you like, and a lot more energy then e-cigs because so many more cigarettes are produced. And there's some much more packaging discarded for an analog smoker as opposed to an e-cig smoker.

And it's Crist, not Christ.

I dont think your friend on the garbage line can spot every battery that passes him.

No, he can't, that's why there are at least a dozen other people on that line. And in random tests they've been shown to filter out something like 85% of recyclables and hazardous material (such as batteries) on average. I'll get the exact figure tomorrow.

Also check your definition on biodegradable, biodegradable is for organic matter like bannana peels. Cigarette butts are biodegradable. They are cellulose acetate produced from wood pulp and degrade completely see study done by RJ reynolds, just kidding, journal of polymers and the environment, a referred journal. SpringerLink - Journal Article

No, you check your definition of biodegradable. Biodegradable means that something can be decomposed by living organisms like bacteria. Cellular acetate is a type of plastic, just because wood pulp is one of the materials that goes into making it doesn't mean it's natural, because it's not, it's a synthetic compound. Do you know what acetate is? It's a toxic solvent used as paint remover/thinner, nail polish remover and more, and is definitely not natural. The filters will decompose eventually, but it will take hundreds of years like any other plastic.

I also understand that 200 cigarette buts will kill a human if ingested, if some of the nicotine gets trapped in the .... what happens to the nicotine we exhale through vapor?

It's not really the nicotine that would kill you, it's the tar, arsenic, and other toxic chemicals that are in cigarettes or produced from combustion

Don't get me wrong, I love my ecigs, but a naturally burning plant with a little cellulose acetate .... on the end does not equate to multiple lithium ion batteries, multiple atomizers, multiple chargers, and cords and juice etc etc.

Cigarettes are not a natural burning plant. They are a natural burning plant treated with all kinds of toxic chemicals. And the disposal of all those e-cig items can be prevented if you care enough. Regardless of whether you care though, you can't do anything about your cigarette smoke and filters.

Sorry I forgot to add, cigarette butts are not fiberglass.

Not anymore apparently, they used to be, and I thought some still were (there may even still be some that are, but IDK for certain), but plastics are just as bad anway. Neither are biodegradable.

 

[zorlac]

I would have to say, my belief is that in the long run anologues are more harmful to the enviroment.
The widespread use of land clearance in the 3rd world for tobacco production, the sheer volume of cigarette butts and packaging to be both produced and then discarded.
I feel that whilst e-cigs may have an impact due to production and then disposal also, as they become more popular it will be possible to set up various means for effective disposal or possibly recycling of batteries and atomizers.

 

[Silver]

And I dont think India, China and the rest of the smoking world has battery seekers looking for batteries through garbage.

Actually.... I beg to differ on this one. Have you ever been to India ? I have, lived there for seven years and I can tell you that there are myriads of people (mostly children by the way !) in India who do nothing else but scour the rubbish dump all day for anything that's worth anything as a recyclable.

Did you also know that any dead atomizers and/or batteries sent back to the manufacturers in China actually can be, and do get, recycled by being stripped and refitted with new parts ?

And, although slightly off topic; have you ever seen the images of poor people (in Africa in this instance) taking apart old and obsolete computers for the parts which can be recycled, just to get a few bob to survive another day ? If they actually manage to survive the severe health hazards of taking the computers apart in the first place, that is ...

Seen in that light I guess we in the West have it rather easy where recycling is concerned (ie; dumping it into a different bin from the rest of the garbage) ?

Cheers,
Silver

 

[KDMickey]

Hey KDMickey,
I went to school in Denver, loved it.
Freakonimics is not a scientific journal. And I'm not arguing that 5.5 trillion cigs smoked causes a lot of smoke, my point is 5.5 trillion vapor cigs smoked may not make as much smoke, but thats a lot of equiptment in batteries, atomizers chargers power for the chargers power to make the e-cigs. Thats 5.5 trillion atomizers 5.5 trillion batteries 5.5 trillion chargers, and how many factories to make 5.5 trillion e-cigs. Just because our e-cigs are nice and clean compared to our analogs, ie no smell ashes smoke etc. We can't forget about the impact in manufacturing all the stuff we need to vape. How many tons of particulate are created to make 5.5 trillion e-cig starter sets, each with its nice packaging charger batts plugs, lots of it very poisionious thermal plastics and heavy metals. A lot is my guess.

I hear what you're saying, but, as a counterpoint...

Our technology--especially electronics--is getting better and better. Batteries live longer. In fact, some researchers just figured out this. Which is awesome.

I bring this up because we can count on new technology improving the green-ness of e-cigs, while analogs will always be analogs. So, even cumulative long term, I am going with e-cigs being [green]greener![/green] Hmm... I want to photoshop Kermit the frog vaping now...

Anywho, Environmental science is also improving at astonishing rates. I think chemicals and heavy metals would actually be easier to remove from the environment than the nasty stuff in analogs.

And, as a final point, how much byproducts do you think come about from the manufacture of iron lungs? And pharmaceutical companies that produce cancer-killing drugs aren't exactly super-green... I mean, they make radiation to kill the cancer that we give ourselves by our stupid, very un-green lifestyle choices.

How about a poll on this one?

 

[LaceyUnderall]

The widespread use of land clearance in the 3rd world for tobacco production,

And imagine if we could use the tobacco fields for growing hemp which could be made into paper!

 

[Nuck]

And imagine if we could use the tobacco fields for growing hemp which could be made into paper!

Yeah..ummm...paper...

 

[rmasu]

I did take chemistry and analytical chem classes. I just cant argue too well.

The production of an e-cig has much more pollutants than rolling a cigarette. Where do you think the metal in atomizer comes from the atomizer tree? And do you think the batteries come from the battery plant?
Metal comes from ore which is mined then processed with some pretty nasty chemicals and by products. You evidently forgot that the plastics in the e-cigs also come from petroleum products. The point is, as of NOW e-cigs create less pollution, simply because there are less of them, but you need to compare equal numbers to be fair.
And yes battery science is getting better, but for argument sake lets stick with what we have now.
Again... I have posted a true scientific paper open for review from a major university. Please post facts that you can dig up to support your claim about butts.

And yes there are large fields of tobacco in the world, and these would be replaced by e-cig factories making more pollutants and a field of plants.
When I come to think about it this topic is hard to argue against e-cigs since this is an e -cig forum.

 

[DCrist721]

Well if nothing else good comes of this thread, at least you know what biodegradable means now.

 

[DCrist721]

And imagine if we could use the tobacco fields for growing hemp which could be made into paper!

Or biodegradable plastic-like materials, or clothing, or food (No other plant source, not even the soybean, compares to hemp in its range and balance of nutritional benefits), or fuel, non-toxic paint, cosmetics, non-toxic cleaning agents, or building materials.

Here's a video that our government created to show us the benefits and uses of hemp, called "Hemp for Victory" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ne9UF-pFhJY

 

[rmasu]

true, but you should check your facts about acetate its a fiber not a solvent,
you're thinking of butyl-acetate and ester-acetate very different stuff.thats And the dangerous stuff in nail polish is the phthalates, toluene, and formaldehyde, dibutyl phthalate, which has been linked to testicular problems in lab animals and humans.

 

[DCrist721]

My bad, actually I was thinking of ethyl acetate, I guess that's what happens when you make posts at 5:30 in the morning. Acetone is used in the production of cellulose acetate though. Regardless, cellulose acetate is not biodegradable.

 

[surbitonPete]

E-cigs are without doubt the worst of the two for the 'environment' especially because all the parts have such a limited lifecycle and I am afraid the greenies are going to go absolutely crazy when they cotton on to just how big a thing vaping could become...... Worldwide you could easily be talking about 'billions' of batteries alone being thrown away every year.

 

[LaceyUnderall]

Or biodegradable plastic-like materials, or clothing, or food (No other plant source, not even the soybean, compares to hemp in its range and balance of nutritional benefits), or fuel, non-toxic paint, cosmetics, non-toxic cleaning agents, or building materials.

What a great video! Here is an excellent blog post on why hemp is illegal. (I know we have gone way off topic here), but to pull it back to at least talk about the ecig... wow... you could put ecig in for hemp and this could be a glass ball!

Why is Marijuana Illegal?

 

[LaceyUnderall]

E-cigs are without doubt the worst of the two for the 'environment' especially because all the parts have such a limited lifecycle and I am afraid the greenies are going to go absolutely crazy when they cotton on to just how big a thing vaping could become...... Worldwide you could easily be talking about 'billions' of batteries alone being thrown away every year.

Hence the importance of refining the technology so hardware lasts longer. Also, the importance of proper usage so that you can get more out of your hardware. Personally, I am testing my atomizer and I am on month 9! 3 months have been hardcore ecig only! Batteries, I have used three in the past 9 months! Can't believe it!

 

[DCrist721]

What a great video! Here is an excellent blog post on why hemp is illegal. (I know we have gone way off topic here), but to pull it back to at least talk about the ecig... wow... you could put ecig in for hemp and this could be a glass ball!

Why is Marijuana Illegal?

Perhaps we can start making e-cigs that use hemp-plastic instead of real plastic, and hemp oil instead of batteries. There are already flameless vaporizers that use butane as a fuel, so if they can run cars on hemp oil I'm sure they could run a vaporizer on it.