Who is behind the "95% Safer"..?

[Skeebo]

It looks at this moment (3.37PM EST) that there are nine of us who, on the record, could not give two hoots or even a single hoot how anyone vapes or what anyone vapes.

Count me in, whether: pod, DL, Mtl, rda's, rta's, mba's, AK's, 357's..... it don't matter to me.

Skeebo
(Who thinks white German Shepherds are the best dogs)

 

[Rossum]

It looks at this moment (3.37PM EST) that there are nine of us who, on the record, could not give two hoots or even a single hoot how anyone vapes or what anyone vapes.

Well, it can be a bit of an issue if you're in the cereal aisle at Walmart.

There are plenty of places one can get away with stealthily tootle-puffing (especially using unflavored juice that has practically no smell), where it would be totally inappropriate to DL-huff cloudz, bro.

I'll offer up my business as an example. vaping is permitted if you do it reasonably discreetly. But come in with a DL rig and start chucking clouds, and I'll kick you to the curb.

 

[dripster]

We adjust power to reach a desired temperature based on the mass of our coil. So if there is fact behind formaldehyde forming at higher temperatures, there is nothing that sates one action, be it MTL or DTL is void of reaching these concerning temperatures.

That's been exactly my whole point from the start. If you dig a little deeper, you will find that the "experiment" that produced the colorful graph I was criticizing was carried out by someone who had been openly guessing that cloud chasers probably need to worry more about formaldehyde levels so you can keep arguing all you want, the classical bias is still visible and clear to just about anyone who is willing to just look.

An individual can prefer a hotter or cooler vape with MTL just the same as an individual who DTL vapes. We can see this with TC users from both camps. The temperature is set as a preference, power is applied to reach that set temperature and adjusted based on the mass of the coil. Both are vaping at the same temperature (as estimated by the TCR) regardless of their power setting or style of vaping.

The total surface area of the coil build cannot be ignored, as it has a direct impact on the amount of vapor production, and, logically, many people are going to wrongfully assume inhaling more vapor probably means inhaling more formaldehyde if the temperature is the same. I.e., you are still forgetting what I said previously, that the longer the juice remains at or near the overheated areas of the coils before it evaporates, the longer it keeps forming formaldehyde.

This can also be viewed and modeled (as a guidance) with Steam Engine. Heat Flux is a measurement of radiant heat. A low mass coil, usually associated with MTL users, requires less power to reach the same Heat Flux as a coil of higher mass that is usually associated with DTL users. Despite the required power change, due to the mass of the coil, heat flux can remain the same.

Now you are confusing surface area with mass. Actually mass is irrelevant, as the ramp up time of a coil as a function of power is mainly determined by volume, not mass. Specifically, it is determined by volume in cohort with the VHC, or volumetric heat capacity of the given metal type. But we aren't discussing the ramp up time so both the mass and the volume are irrelevant to what we are discussing. That is, aside from the general fact it's often easier to increase the surface area by increasing the volume than it is by decreasing the thicknesses of the wire strands. But anyway... Heat flux per watt is directly proportional to surface area.

What is missing from these formaldehyde tests is the characteristics of the coils used. Increase the power to a low mass coil and I am open to the fact you may be reaching temperatures that should be of concern. But if the tests were to involve a coil of higher mass, then the power should be adjusted accordingly. This is not a case of ones vaping style always equals higher temperatures therefore increased risk of formaldehyde forming.

You are still forgetting what I tried to explain previously, that:

1. the airflow characteristics,
2. the evaporation rate,
3. the relationship between both,
4. the wicking capacity of the coils,
5. that of the wicks inside them,
6. the viscosity of the juice,
7. how that changes across different temperatures,
8. the boiling temperature of the juice,
9. the surface area of the coils,
10. the size and topology of the tiny cavities and crevasses between the individual wire strands through which juice is flowing that can be linked together in a complex way, and
11. how the combination of all of the above factors affects the different speeds at which said juice is flowing from there to where, plus
12. how that also affects heat transfer on all fronts,

ALL play a significant part as for the different temperatures that occur and for how much time how much juice of the given type remains at every one of all these different temperatures before evaporating. (I probably forgot to mention additional factors like the temperature the juice was at before the start of the pull, for example, but anyway, you get the idea.)

 

[CMD-Ky]

But I would bet my last peso that as soon as that errant employee leaves your building you would not give fig what that vaper chucks or upon what he is doing that chucking.

Well, it can be a bit of an issue if you're in the cereal aisle at Walmart.

There are plenty of places one can get away with stealthily tootle-puffing (especially using unflavored juice that has practically no smell), where it would be totally inappropriate to DL-huff cloudz, bro.

I'll offer up my business as an example. Vaping is permitted if you do it reasonably discreetly. But come in with a DL rig and start chucking clouds, and I'll kick you to the curb.

 

[Asbestos4004]

wait a minute......

White German Shepherds aren't the "best".

Black Dogs Matter!

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Coil mass by itself only affects how long it takes for the coil to come up to temperature. If I take two coils, one made of aluminum (very light) and the other made out of tungsten (very heavy) that both have the same dimensions and surface area, and I apply the same power to them, they will reach the same temperature (disregarding any differences in IR emissivity between the two materials). The lower mass coil will reach that temperature more quickly though.

The reason people have the notion that a more massive coil will run cooler is two fold: 1) It takes it longer to get to the same temperature, and 2) A more massive coil made of the same material will almost certainly have more surface area than the less massive coil.

This assumes we vape for an infinite duration. Below screen grab from Escribe shows that with 50 watts I am able to hit my desired temp of 220°C with a 4 second draw. At 20 watts I am not able to reach that 220°C within the same 4 seconds. And I would bet that with a 10 second draw, the limit of most devices (which I am not going to test), I still would not be able to reach that 220°C goal. Same coil/atomizer is used for both tests.

Now if I were to change my coil to something that has less mass I could easily hit that 220°C at 20 watts.

 

[stols001]

Sometimes I just want to vape, you know? Threads like these just make me want to vape.

Dripster I think you actually do provide a valuable service on ECF, although it hasn't been really an ISSUE of mine since OH I can't remember.

But, it's good to be reminded to not take myself too seriously.....

Although really I also wonder what might be next if I took myself LESS seriously. LOL.

Anna

 

[Rossum]

But I would bet my last peso that as soon as that errant employee leaves your building you would not give fig what that vaper chucks or upon what he is doing that chucking.

In general, that would certainly be correct. There is just one caveat: If I saw him being rude or obnoxious with his cloudz anywhere, I'd probably ask him to stop giving us all a bad name.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

@dripster – do not make assumptions at what I am confused at or did not acknowledge from your previous posts. The purpose of my post was to demonstrate that IF formaldehyde forms at higher temperatures, then both MTL and DTL users are at risk. I am not picking sides! We adjust our wattage based on the coil that is utilized to reach a desired vape temperature.

 

[Rossum]

Now if I were to change my coil to something that has less mass I could easily hit that 230°C at 20 watts.

Less mass with the same surface area?

 

[dripster]

Well, it can be a bit of an issue if you're in the cereal aisle at Walmart.

There are plenty of places one can get away with stealthily tootle-puffing (especially using unflavored juice that has practically no smell), where it would be totally inappropriate to DL-huff cloudz, bro.

I'll offer up my business as an example. Vaping is permitted if you do it reasonably discreetly. But come in with a DL rig and start chucking clouds, and I'll kick you to the curb.

Well I live in a country where vaping in public indoor places was made punishable by law. After the law change a lot of people went back to smoking cigarettes because not having to go outside used to be what attracted them to vaping in the first place, and, over here the fact vaping is a safer alternative to smoking is still very often not known or not believed by smokers, if not simply ignored altogether often it seems.

 

[ScottP]

Worse, there are several many MTL crusaders on here trying to push almost every new vaper (who comes here asking for questions) towards MTL or highly restrictive low wattage DL.

Sure, but my point was there are folks that prefer MTL that bend the rules by systemically trying to push EVERYONE away from using alien coils. Please read the thread.

Except it doesn't go both ways on here. The vast majority of all the latest one-sided, fake-argumented drivel about MTL or highly restrictive low wattage DL vs high wattage DL here on ecf has been very clearly targeted against high wattage DL in one way or another.

I've already thrown multiple buckets of water onto the open flames. The life boat's still heavily burning nevertheless because the MTL zealots simply never stop.

No one is crusading against DL, high wattage or otherwise. We steer more NEW people toward MTL because that more closely resembles what they were used to with cigarettes. This is not because we are zealots or hate DL it is because we would rather convert the smoker into a vaper than send them running away with an overwhelming cloud. We also steer them toward mods and tanks that are more newbie friendly which normally mean regulated mod and a tank with drop in coils. Once they have made the conversion and they are looking for more THEN we can look at things like RDA/RTAs and DL and high wattage. Remember most people are just looking to quit smoking, they aren't looking for a new hobby.

My setup is a mid wattage very loose MTL or lightly restricted DL with just 1 coil and I can tell you from experience that letting a smoker/never vaper try this is overwhelming for them. It's just too much vapor. Way more volume than they are used to. Now, if I had some dual/quad coil hyper DL 200 watt framed alien staples and let a never vaper try it, I would expect most of them would cough their fool heads off and run away screaming "Vaping is WAY WORSE than smoking", and nobody wants that.

I do think there is more stigma toward mechs than there is DL and maybe that is what you are thinking of. Then again if someone comes on here, states they have never vaped and are looking to quit smoking, I do think trying to steer them toward a mech + RDA then telling them they need classes in Ohms Law, battery safety, thermodynamics, aerodynamics, and hydrodynamics MIGHT be just a tad overwhelming and could drive them away and back to smoking. MOST people need to take smaller steps. Start with something that more resembles smoking, that is easy, no science degree required. Then add the complexity at a rate they are willing to learn.

 

[ScottP]

And I would bet that with a 10 second draw, the limit of most devices (which I am not going to test)

Just for the sake of completeness, yes, 10 seconds is the average. Though I have seen some as low as 6 seconds (mostly older mods) and DNA boards (at least the latest C series) are defaulted to 20 seconds (but this can be configured in EScribe). I set my DNA devices to 7 seconds since I normally never take a longer than 3 to 4 second pull anyway.

 

[zoiDman]

Well, it can be a bit of an issue if you're in the cereal aisle at Walmart.

...

You know that you just Dated yourself with that?

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Less mass with the same surface area?

Sure. How do you want to accomplish this? Kanthal vs SS316 using the same dimensions - the difference in mass may not be enough to justify my above example but enough to justify a difference in power.

We can use the same metal if you wish but given the dimension limitations of a coil the surface area will not be exact. However, 2x 27awg wires wrapped in parallel has less mass and more surface area than a single 24 awg for the same number of wraps.

 

[Asbestos4004]

You know that you just Dated yourself with that?

nah...old timers spell it "Isle"

 

[ScottP]

nah...old timers spell it "Isle"

If you are shopping on an "isle", I would be wondering what in the hell you are doing on a small piece of land out in the middle of the ocean looking for groceries. "Aisle" is what you find in grocery stores. Literacy FTW.

 

[smoked25years]

If you are shopping on an "isle", I would be wondering what in the hell you are doing on a small piece of land out in the middle of the ocean looking for groceries. "Aisle" is what you find in grocery stores. Literacy FTW.

That poster is such a lie. I mean has anyone ever seen or even heard of a report claiming Toluene or Benzine in vapor? I haven't.

Benzene doesn't have an "i" in it. Benzine is something else.

 

[Skeebo]

No one is crusading against DL, high wattage or otherwise. We steer more NEW people toward MTL because that more closely resembles what they were used to with cigarettes. This is not because we are zealots or hate DL it is because we would rather convert the smoker into a vaper than send them running away with an overwhelming cloud. We also steer them toward mods and tanks that are more newbie friendly which normally mean regulated mod and a tank with drop in coils. Once they have made the conversion and they are looking for more THEN we can look at things like RDA/RTAs and DL and high wattage.

My setup is a mid wattage very loose MTL or lightly restricted DL with just 1 coil and I can tell you from experience that letting a smoker/never vaper try this is overwhelming for them. It's just too much vapor. Way more volume than they are used to. Now, if I had some dual/quad coil hyper DL 200 watt framed alien staples and let a never vaper try it, I would expect most of them would cough their fool heads off and run away screaming "Vaping is WAY WORSE than smoking", and nobody wants that.

I do think there is more stigma toward mechs than there is DL and maybe that is what you are thinking of. Then again if someone comes on here, states they have never vaped and are looking to quit smoking, I do think trying to steer them toward a mech + RDA then telling them they need classes in Ohms Law, battery safety, thermodynamics, aerodynamics, and hydrodynamics MIGHT be just a tad overwhelming and could drive them away and back to smoking. MOST people need to take smaller steps. Start with something that more resembles smoking, that is easy, no science degree required. Then add the complexity at a rate they are willing to learn.

Very well stated. I haven't met very many new vapers that can handle the hit from a sub ohm device.
When I've helped a curious coworker they always thought my leftover C4 tanks were the bomb.

 

[Asbestos4004]

If you are shopping on an "isle", I would be wondering what in the hell you are doing on a small piece of land out in the middle of the ocean looking for groceries. "Aisle" is what you find in grocery stores. Literacy FTW.

I guess this would be a case of "you had to be there". It's an inside joke. Thanks, though