Who is behind the "95% Safer"..?

[zoiDman]

It ain't. One study I'm very familiar with (from USC) actually shows that there are more metal particles in ambient air than in e-cig vapor.

Data from the USC study, including Compounds, Outdoor air, e-Cigarette, and normal Cigarette.

http://www.rsc.org/suppdata/em/c4/c4em00415a/c4em00415a1.pdf

For your convenience, listed below are the amounts of Cr, Ni, Pb, Zn and Al in outdoor air vs e-cigarette vapor:

Cr: 5.53 vs 4.22
Ni: 5.57 vs 6.14 (+/-2.9)
Pb: 13.28 vs 9.85
Zn: 54.31 vs 56.08 (+/- 21 [sic])
Al: 333.27 (±62.93) vs 161.43 (±71.35)

So, vapor is actually healthier, per this study, than the air we breathe here in SoCal.

I thought @Cool_Breeze might appreciate more scientific evidence in support of the 95% safer finding.

Carry on.

USC?

University of Spoiled Children?

 

[ScottP]

That's True.

But since 4 out of 3 People have a problem using Fractions, trying to explain some of the Subtleties of Statistics seems like an wasted case.

BTW - If some Illness is Unique to e-Cigarette Use Only, then that Isn't part of the RCP's 5% Risk Assessment. Right?

Well I must be the 5th out of 3 people because I have no problems with fractions.

I guess that would depend on your definition of "illness". For instance, I wouldn't consider some acute allergic reaction vapor that stops as soon as you stop vaping an illness. If vaping is shown to cause cancer, COPD, or any other long term negative effects then sure, the 5% number may need to be revised.

 

[United States]

With all the conjecture swirling around I figured I'd check out what the CDC says.

Basically it stated in the article I read that vaping is safer than smoking, but it's too soon to tell how much safer.

 

[zoiDman]

Well I must be the 5th out of 3 people because I have no problems with fractions.

...

That, or maybe some sort of Round Off error on a Confidence Interval or Something.

 

[dripster]

Yep, those pesky MTL zealots are almost as nonsensical as those DL zealots.
You gotta watch those low watt vapers, they'll sneak up on you & turn your power down. The horror.

Worse, there are several many MTL crusaders on here trying to push almost every new vaper (who comes here asking for questions) towards MTL or highly restrictive low wattage DL.

I guess vape 'rules' prevent folks that prefer MTL from using an alien coil.

Sure, but my point was there are folks that prefer MTL that bend the rules by systemically trying to push EVERYONE away from using alien coils. Please read the thread.

Another example of my way to vape is better than your way, because I say so. Goes both ways.

Except it doesn't go both ways on here. The vast majority of all the latest one-sided, fake-argumented drivel about MTL or highly restrictive low wattage DL vs high wattage DL here on ecf has been very clearly targeted against high wattage DL in one way or another.

Everything in vaping are matters of personal preference, enjoy whatever methods you prefer.
If you can't enjoy your prefered method because what someone else says, you have bigger fish to fry.
Please, no open flames on the life boat, even to cook fish.

I've already thrown multiple buckets of water onto the open flames. The life boat's still heavily burning nevertheless because the MTL zealots simply never stop.

 

[Asbestos4004]

Then there’s those of us who don’t really care how anyone else vapes...

 

[Skeebo]

Worse, there are several many MTL crusaders on here trying to push almost every new vaper (who comes here asking for questions) towards MTL or highly restrictive low wattage DL.

Sure, but my point was there are folks that prefer MTL that bend the rules by systemically trying to push EVERYONE away from using alien coils. Please read the thread.

Except it doesn't go both ways on here. The vast majority of all the latest one-sided, fake-argumented drivel about MTL or highly restrictive low wattage DL vs high wattage DL here on ecf has been very clearly targeted against high wattage DL in one way or another.

I've already thrown multiple buckets of water onto the open flames. The life boat's still heavily burning nevertheless because the MTL zealots simply never stop.

Well.... I guess it's good you got that off your chest. I'm of the opinion that both methods are great in helping get us off cigarettes. That's really the only objective here.

Life is far to short to sweat the small stuff.

I hope you feel better.

 

[stols001]

I think that most zealots tend to accuse others of zealotry.

Because I MTL vape but I could CARE LESS what you vape, unless you are a teen with a juul OR some mech user about to blow their head off due to being unsafe.

That's really all I care about, dripster can you stop being a drip sometime? I mean, I know it's advertised in your name and everything but you know I SHOWED UP here with a super sub0hm vape with no idea what I was doing and I am SUPER GLAD some MTL people spoke up and said I had OPTIONS.

I'm sure the reverse is equally true for those who need MORE VAPE.

Your little crusade just has no merit whatsoever. None.

Anna

 

[zoiDman]

I think that most zealots tend to accuse others of zealotry.

...

I'd say it is Close to 95%.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

We adjust power to reach a desired temperature based on the mass of our coil. So if there is fact behind formaldehyde forming at higher temperatures, there is nothing that sates one action, be it MTL or DTL is void of reaching these concerning temperatures.

An individual can prefer a hotter or cooler vape with MTL just the same as an individual who DTL vapes. We can see this with TC users from both camps. The temperature is set as a preference, power is applied to reach that set temperature and adjusted based on the mass of the coil. Both are vaping at the same temperature (as estimated by the TCR) regardless of their power setting or style of vaping.

This can also be viewed and modeled (as a guidance) with Steam Engine. Heat Flux is a measurement of radiant heat. A low mass coil, usually associated with MTL users, requires less power to reach the same Heat Flux as a coil of higher mass that is usually associated with DTL users. Despite the required power change, due to the mass of the coil, heat flux can remain the same.

What is missing from these formaldehyde tests is the characteristics of the coils used. Increase the power to a low mass coil and I am open to the fact you may be reaching temperatures that should be of concern. But if the tests were to involve a coil of higher mass, then the power should be adjusted accordingly. This is not a case of ones vaping style always equals higher temperatures therefore increased risk of formaldehyde forming.

 

[dripster]

Well.... I guess it's good you got that off your chest. I'm of the opinion that both methods are great in helping get us off cigarettes. That's really the only objective here.

Life is far to short to sweat the small stuff.

I hope you feel better.

I didn't write what I wrote to get that off my chest. I was merely helping people who might stumble across this thread in the future by making it easier for them to see who is trying to ignite the life boat.

 

[Rossum]

We adjust power to reach a desired temperature based on the mass of our coil.

This can also be viewed and modeled (as a guidance) with Steam Engine. Heat Flux is a measurement of radiant heat. A low mass coil, usually associated with MTL users, requires less power to reach the same Heat Flux as a coil of higher mass that is usually associated with DTL users.

Coil mass only matters in a transient way, while the coil is heating up. After that, in a steady state, it's surface area that matters, and the "heat flux" that Steam Engine calculates is based on the coil's surface area, not its mass.

Incidentally, Steam Engine's heat flux calculations are off quite a bit for complex builds (pretty much anything other than a single wire). It calculates the gross surface are of all the wires in a build, but that's not the effective surface area from which heat can radiate and on which liquid can form vapor because in a complex build, because much of that gross surface area is shielded by wires in contact with each other.

 

[dripster]

I think that most zealots tend to accuse others of zealotry.

There's a difference between accusing them and presenting evidence of the fact.

Because I MTL vape but I could CARE LESS what you vape, unless you are a teen with a juul OR some mech user about to blow their head off due to being unsafe.

Just because you could care less about people, doesn't also mean new vapers can't be scared away from high wattage DL by someone who clearly manufactures evidence to support his claim regarding the levels of formaldehyde.

That's really all I care about, dripster can you stop being a drip sometime? I mean, I know it's advertised in your name and everything but you know I SHOWED UP here with a super sub0hm vape with no idea what I was doing and I am SUPER GLAD some MTL people spoke up and said I had OPTIONS.

What if I told you I DON'T CARE that you think I'm being a drip?

I'm sure the reverse is equally true for those who need MORE VAPE.

My whole point was those who need more vape are being scared away from it. So not sure what you must be getting at here.

Your little crusade just has no merit whatsoever. None.

I'm not on a crusade. I'm merely pointing out who is on a crusade, and, if you don't care about that, then, frankly, I dont care about the fact you don't care so I'm done wasting my time with you about this.

Anna

 

[stols001]

Dripster you really SHOULD just get stuff off your chest sometimes. I have a mental picture of ou like this:

Really you should just write the One Post To End them ALL and then go wax or something. Really.
LOL.

Anna

 

[zoiDman]

Dripster you really SHOULD just get stuff off your chest sometimes. I have a mental picture of ou like this:

Really you should just write the One Post To End them ALL and then go wax or something. Really.
LOL.

Anna

I myself think that Dripster is providing a Much Needed Service here on the ECF.

I mean... who else is Standing Ever Vigilant against the Crusading Hordes of Subversive MTL Zealots that are Hell Bent on Brainwashing All Vapers into their Communal way of Thinking?

In Fact, I think we all should Chip In and buy him something from this List of Atomizers...

The 7 Best MTL Tanks on the Market Right Now [2019]

... as a Small Token of our Continual Appreciation of his Multi-Posted Hyperbolic Rants.

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Odd how different folks notice different things from the same sources.

What I notice most that very well could turn off / scare away new vapers is the overwhelming push of 'you must use an RBA of some sort with fancy coil types to get an enjoyable hit' crowd.

You'll never be able to quit smoking or ever be satisfied with the pathetic mtl clouds bro, crowd.

Or, the you need to learn to rebuild now cuz the gooberment is gonna take all your replaceable heads away from you and they're all horrible anyway, crowd.

Do yourself a favor buy 20 RBA's & learn how to master them, immediately, cus all replaceable heads suck, crowd.
Gotta have 100+watts to get a real vape, crowd.

Need to buy a freezer & stockpile all sorts of stuff, use a spare bedroom to store all the stuff, wire, cotton, 600 bottles of various flavorings.
And, you must stockpile flavorings, Pg & Vg cuz,,, zombies, even though there is no danger of them being restricted & all are available almost everywhere.
Must learn how to mix your own DIY liquids, now, the vape police are coming for your store bought liquids.
You gotta have 5 gallons of nicotine in storage...

The sky has been falling since before I joined this forum.

I see more people vaping on pod type now days (juul etc) than any other methods, many that have gone from advanced devices to pods or very small compact AIO types for the simplicity.

Scaring away new vapers by bombarding them with mountains of gadgetry, terminology, new skills learning curves, outlandish purchases and a bunch of personal preferences pushed as some kind of gospel is more the reality.

Quite a few new vapers don't even want to press a button to get a hit or refill a tank, or buy a bottle of e liquid.
They come here to ask a simple question about a simple no hassle way to quit smoking by using a vape device, and whammo the bombardment begins.

If your life boat is on fire it is of your own doing or your unique fuzzy perception.

 

[Punk In Drublic]

Coil mass only matters in a transient way, while the coil is heating up. After that, in a steady state, it's surface area that matters, and the "heat flux" that Steam Engine calculates is based on the coil's surface area, not its mass.

Incidentally, Steam Engine's heat flux calculations are off quite a bit for complex builds (pretty much anything other than a single wire). It calculates the gross surface are of all the wires in a build, but that's not the effective surface area from which heat can radiate and on which liquid can form vapor because in a complex build, because much of that gross surface area is shielded by wires in contact with each other.

The point of my post was to not debate the accuracy of Steam Engine (which I did state “As guidance”), it was to demonstrate that should temperature be a contributing factor to formaldehyde, then both actions be it MTL or DTL are at risk depending on an individual’s preference. Heat Flux within Steam’s Coil Wrapping application is a guidance to demonstrate how hot/cool a vape can be when power is adjusted for a modeled coil.

As for coil mass…sure it matters. Correct in that mass contributes to the time it takes for a coil to heat, but that contribution is also related to the temperature at which the coil reaches. High mass coil, low wattage and you may not reach the correct temperature needed to vaporize juice. Even if time was not a factor. So despite Heat Flux is a measurement of milliwatts per millimeter square, and even if Steams accuracy is debated, we can still obtain the same Heat Flux regardless of surface area or mass by adjusting our power.

 

[CMD-Ky]

Then there’s those of us who don’t really care how anyone else vapes...

It looks at this moment (3.37PM EST) that there are nine of us who, on the record, could not give two hoots or even a single hoot how anyone vapes or what anyone vapes.

 

[vapdivrr]

I didn't write what I wrote to get that off my chest. I was merely helping people who might stumble across this thread in the future by making it easier for them to see who is trying to ignite the life boat.

[emoji2175][emoji91]

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Rossum]

As for coil mass…sure it matters.

Coil mass by itself only affects how long it takes for the coil to come up to temperature. If I take two coils, one made of aluminum (very light) and the other made out of tungsten (very heavy) that both have the same dimensions and surface area, and I apply the same power to them, they will reach the same temperature (disregarding any differences in IR emissivity between the two materials). The lower mass coil will reach that temperature more quickly though.

The reason people have the notion that a more massive coil will run cooler is two fold: 1) It takes it longer to get to the same temperature, and 2) A more massive coil made of the same material will almost certainly have more surface area than the less massive coil.