Why attack good advice

Status
Not open for further replies.

Mutts

Full Member
Nov 14, 2014
6
15
UK
Been looking around and getting lots of useful info and answers but there seems to be a disturbing tendency to knock anybody who posts a balanced opinion that others do not agree with. I was looking for advice on cotton or silica wicks and a protein purification scientist with a doctorate in both chemistry and law made a plausible point about the possible dangers of cotton as wicks. She wasn't stating it as a proven danger but giving a reasonable heads up that there might be something worth having an intelligent debate about.

What she got instead almost amounted to abuse in the form of dissing her scientific authority. OK, say you don't like cotton being questioned, then give a balanced even response to something all vapers should be concerned about. The harder we police ourselves the harder it is for the authorities to ban vaping for their own political benefit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

CigmundFreud

Senior Member
Nov 3, 2014
73
76
Coral Springs, Fl
I think it's in a lot of vapers heads to get defensive whenever the safety of anything vaping related is questioned. What with all the FDA stuff going on now, they just get defensive and possibly subconsciously think that the other person is out to ultimately ban vaping. It's real easy to get into this "team"/our side vs. your side hostile mentality.
 

nyiddle

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 9, 2014
2,826
2,692
USA. State: Inebriated.
I think it's in a lot of vapers heads to get defensive whenever the safety of anything vaping related is questioned. What with all the FDA stuff going on now, they just get defensive and possibly subconsciously think that the other person is out to ultimately ban vaping. It's real easy to get into this "team"/our side vs. your side hostile mentality.

I think part of it's that, but it's also that people don't want to be told that what they're doing carries potential risks. I got into an argument just the other night with someone who was claiming his juice was positively, 100% diacetyl/diketone free. I argued that he couldn't possibly know that for sure unless he had his juice lab-tested. He kept saying, "the manufacturer assures me.. all over the website they say.. etc."

I wasn't telling him that his juice DEFINITELY had diacetyl in it, I was telling him that there's a possibility that comes with creamy/custardy juices for them to contain diketones, which could (potentially) be bad for you. I was met with such hostility that I came to the conclusion that even if I had factual evidence, written facts, he would still try and refute it. It's a very psychological thing. If you've been doing something one way for a while and someone tells you "that way is bad for you" you're gonna try and find reasons that it's not to justify it in your own head as being "safe".

ETA: Just realized your name is PERFECTLY appropriate for a discussion on the psychology behind denial.
 
I don't think we have to worry about it being banned unless there is a lot of lobbying and 3rd party shade going on. The AHA even came out a while back and said this is very likely going to be safer than smoking cigs, but we aren't sure how much safer yet. You get less particulate, and way less amounts of carcinogenic compounds. You do get some. There is a very good paper about it entitled "Carbonyl Compounds in Electronic Cigarette Vapors—Effects of Nicotine Solvent and Battery Output Voltage" out there. The thing we have to worry about is a too heavy FDA regulation. The FDA being involved may not be the worse thing in the world if done correctly. We could have safer equipment to regulation and safer liquid. The thing is, it could also go south and ruin the experience for a lot of people. Restricted to prescription even... This is how big companies will gain advantage in this market and why regulation could be bad. You are right, the community must be able to have real scientific discussion and bring our interests to these companies producing our vaping supplies. We will learn more as a community and we can not be bashing people for bring up concerns. I have heard concerns about different wicks myself, and I don't know where I stand, but any links to any research on the topic would be great to have, as I am still education myself as well. I discourage anyone from being too defensive about real issues of safety when it comes to vaping.

Also:
I wasn't telling him that his juice DEFINITELY had diacetyl in it, I was telling him that there's a possibility that comes with creamy/custardy juices for them to contain diketones, which could (potentially) be bad for you

^^ This is one reason why some regulation COULD be a good thing. It would be nice to know all of our juices are 100 percent what they say they are.
 
Last edited:

Cool-breeze

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 24, 2013
765
797
Upstate sc
I for one don't get why people are so defensive and/or abrasive in an online forum. I use cotton. If they prove cotton is less healthy than silica Ill still use cotton because I like the taste better plus I personally dislike trying to build a coil around silica. I also vape a custard type liquid as my ADV. My vendor says is Diacetyl free but I know they don't have a lab. I accept the risks. All studies I've read at their worse are still much much better than what I got from smoking. I will say I have no quarrel with regulating ourselves out of common sense and self preservation. Concerning the FDA I would rather take my chances buying liquids on good faith then have the FDA's interference. "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have" - Thomas Jefferson. To be on point with the OP I agree, I will give validity to any opinion that can be supported and discard any opinion thats not.
 

WillyZee

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 23, 2013
9,930
36,929
Toronto
I was looking for advice on cotton or silica wicks and a protein purification scientist with a doctorate in both chemistry and law made a plausible point about the possible dangers of cotton as wicks. She wasn't stating it as a proven danger

a protein purification scientist with a doctorate in chemistry ... too bad she didn't have something concrete to back up her opinion.
 

Brettanomyces

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 18, 2014
267
182
Pacific Northwest
It's the internet, disagree with someone or offer information to what they believe is the contrary and get ready for a flame fest. I know it's not as in depth as some of the answers but quite commonly what takes place.

Based on your screen name and avatar I would guess that you understand this better than most people, if the combativeness on this forum upsets someone I imagine that some of the tech/game forums I frequent would leave them in a fetal position. It's natural for people to get defensive when someone questions their belief on something that they're passionate about and the anonymity of the internet makes it easier to be mean, luckily most people have enough social grace and decency to not act that way or forums would be much worse than they are.

I do think that the threat of unreasonable regulations probably has people more defensive than they would be otherwise. Personally I'm in favor of reasonable regulations, unfortunately I realize that money motivates policy and BT has a lot of money.
 

ReigntheGamer

Account closed on request
ECF Veteran
Oct 14, 2014
5,979
26,132
Based on your screen name and avatar I would guess that you understand this better than most people, if the combativeness on this forum upsets someone I imagine that some of the tech/game forums I frequent would leave them in a fetal position. It's natural for people to get defensive when someone questions their belief on something that they're passionate about and the anonymity of the internet makes it easier to be mean, luckily most people have enough social grace and decency to not act that way or forums would be much worse than they are.

I do think that the threat of unreasonable regulations probably has people more defensive than they would be otherwise. Personally I'm in favor of reasonable regulations, unfortunately I realize that money motivates policy and BT has a lot of money.

+100 Interwebs for you sir/ma'am couldn't have said it better, completely agree.
 

ReigntheGamer

Account closed on request
ECF Veteran
Oct 14, 2014
5,979
26,132
I think this type of behavior is just sadly common all over the 'net... irregardless of the topic.

It truly is, but when you add anonymity and lack of recourse it allows people to show their true colors with the only limiter being their moral compass. Discussing differing points of view in a civilized manner is going the way of the dinosaurs.
 

LMS62

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 5, 2014
1,067
2,793
Mesa, AZ
I think this type of behavior is just sadly common all over the 'net... irregardless of the topic.
I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, it is common on every forum I have ever frequented. It reminds me of how people are when they are behind the wheel in traffic, but face-to-face, they usually couldn't be nicer.
 

Brettanomyces

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Oct 18, 2014
267
182
Pacific Northwest
I think this type of behavior is just sadly common all over the 'net... irregardless of the topic.

I agree that this happens everywhere regardless of topic, however having a wide variety of interest has exposed me to an even greater variety of forums and I've noticed that certain topics attract a lot more of that type of behavior than others. I don't mean this as a disparaging remark, it's always the minority that cause trouble and every group has troublemakers.
 

ProjektMayhem

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 8, 2014
536
236
Mooresville, NC, USA
Just substitute the word arguer for loner.



Hahaha yeah pretty much.

Been looking around and getting lots of useful info and answers but there seems to be a disturbing tendency to knock anybody who posts a balanced opinion that others do not agree with. I was looking for advice on cotton or silica wicks and a protein purification scientist with a doctorate in both chemistry and law made a plausible point about the possible dangers of cotton as wicks. She wasn't stating it as a proven danger but giving a reasonable heads up that there might be something worth having an intelligent debate about.

What she got instead almost amounted to abuse in the form of dissing her scientific authority. OK, say you don't like cotton being questioned, then give a balanced even response to something all vapers should be concerned about. The harder we police ourselves the harder it is for the authorities to ban vaping for their own political benefit.

I was actually thinking the other night if cotton might not be the safest thing to use for vaping. I know back when I was doing things I shouldn't have been doing "cotton fever" was a real risk and that sucked if you happened to get it. Definitely not fun. So if it can do that to you it may not be the best thing to inhale but I don't know because there's no data on it. But if it is proved to be bad for you somehow I'm probably not going to keep using it.
 

Kevin littell

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 24, 2011
879
705
65
Covington Ga
One of my favorite Comedians of all time is Bill Cosby.


On one of his shows he has to explain to one of his children why the news she just presented him wasn't so good.


FROM MEMORY:" your favorite meal in the whole world could be Steak and a baked potato. It could be the one thing in the world you would love to eat every day for the rest of your life! But if someone serves it too you on a trashcan lid are you really gonna eat it."
 

AndriaD

Reviewer / Blogger
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jan 24, 2014
21,253
50,807
64
LawrencevilleGA
angryvaper.crypticsites.com
I think part of it's that, but it's also that people don't want to be told that what they're doing carries potential risks. I got into an argument just the other night with someone who was claiming his juice was positively, 100% diacetyl/diketone free. I argued that he couldn't possibly know that for sure unless he had his juice lab-tested. He kept saying, "the manufacturer assures me.. all over the website they say.. etc."

I wasn't telling him that his juice DEFINITELY had diacetyl in it, I was telling him that there's a possibility that comes with creamy/custardy juices for them to contain diketones, which could (potentially) be bad for you. I was met with such hostility that I came to the conclusion that even if I had factual evidence, written facts, he would still try and refute it. It's a very psychological thing. If you've been doing something one way for a while and someone tells you "that way is bad for you" you're gonna try and find reasons that it's not to justify it in your own head as being "safe".

ETA: Just realized your name is PERFECTLY appropriate for a discussion on the psychology behind denial.

^^ This is one reason why some regulation COULD be a good thing. It would be nice to know all of our juices are 100 percent what they say they are.


This "diketone situation" is exactly what has turned an occasional DIYer (mainly mixing pre-made juices) to the full-fledged variety. I've discovered that I really, really enjoy the bakery flavors -- and then I learned that diketones have the potential not just to irritate your lungs, but to DESTROY them.

If you buy pre-made juice, you have to take the word of whoever made that ejuice that there is nothing bad in it; given that pre-made ejuice runs about $.35-$1.00 per ml, yet costs only about a tenth (or less!) of that to actually *make*, the folks making ejuice have every reason to buy the cheapest ingredients they can find, to inflate their astonishing profit margin even further. The manufacturers of flavors, however, sell their flavors for quite inexpensive prices, and they must be high-quality, or people will simply buy from other manufacturers -- no recipe-making required, just to make a simple flavor, and several of the major flavor manufacturers have become aware of the vaping situation, and that some flavors commonly used for dietary purposes are distinctly unsafe for inhalation, and are either reformulating existing flavors, or creating new versions of old flavors with no diketones.

At some point, you have to trust someone when they say "no diketones" -- but I've decided that the flavor manufacturers are probably a safer bet than the ejuice makers with their appalling profit margins, since I do love those bakery flavors, and really would like to continue vaping them with some peace of mind that I'm not destroying my lungs. I quit smoking so I could STOP destroying my lungs, so if making my own ejuice is how I can better assure myself of safety, then that's what I'll do. Anyone who's as concerned about lung destruction as I am, check out bullcityvapor.com; they carry a TON of flavors from most if not all the major manufacturers, they show you very clearly which flavors are known to contain any diketones, and they have excellent prices and really fast shipping.

Andria
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread