Why can't they just leave us alone?

[Dana A]

You go girl!

 

[MonkInsane]

I know how you feel. They're always picking on us damn smokers. and now I get angst from both sides - Non-smokers for still feeding my addiction with an E-Cig, and from smokers who think E-Cigs are a joke. LOL

But to be honest I gave up giving a Rats behind what people think of me years ago, and have been much happier for it. If they don't like me and judge me - well thats their problem! Water off my back. I really dislike people like that - all a bunch of hypocrites.

Point I am trying to make is don't let them make you feel villified, you and I both know they have their own vices. Just be happy in knowing that they are ignorant fools who cannot see the treestump in their own eye.

 

[MonkInsane]

Thank you chimney, I appreciate that girl, I just get fed up with everyone. I was telling someone today that I quit smoking and instead of saying way to go they said, you just replaced one bad habit with another, talking about my vaping. People are such ...... and they get under my skin lol.

You are right generic mutant, it's just that I'm tired of them being all righteous while they are doing the "preferred drugs" lol

You mean the Socially-acceptable drugs

 

[MonkInsane]

There is a huge area of research about the way mental health and nicotine addiction interact. The majority of schizophrenics self-medicate with nicotine, or perhaps other things in tobacco. That basically proves that they have a massive effect on mental health (and doesn't mean you need to be schizophrenic to self-medicate with them).

The puritans who think that everyone should quit instantly are missing the point: for some people it's easy to quit, for others the effects of quitting are much worse (even if they are temporary) than the future prospect of poor health. Neurochemistry and neuropsychology are complicated and poorly understood, but we're learning.

If you're a professional basketball player, you might say: "I used to not care about being a professional basketball player, and then I realised that I wanted to become one. I practised for a long time, and now I am one. This proves that if you want to be a professional basketball player, you can."

Obviously it doesn't, there are other factors at play, such as innate ability or stature. You can't extrapolate from individual experience to everyone else. The experience of addiction to a drug is not in principle any different.

Yup, I cant stand puritans! It's always THEIR way and to hell with everybody else's opinions. They're living with blinders on - seeing no point-of-view but their own. In the end they miss out on life, cause their point of view limits their ability to really LIVE!

If we had to give up everything thats "Bad for us", we'd be back in the stone age!! LOL

 

[heroinesick]

A few months ago, a friend of mine posted one of those scare tactic pictures on fb of a diseased, damaged smokers lung with her words of "to my friends that smoke, look at this - please quit now!!!" I know it was with the best of intentions....but....

I wanted to laugh. Really, you think that was a news flash to anyone that smokes? You think I saw that and said "omg, I didn't know - let me put these down NOW!!" No one knows more about the risks than a smoker - if you want to use it to keep someone from smoking, great, but don't preach to a smoker....we know. This is a woman who is 50 lbs overweight and uses a tanning bed....really?? Look at the top 10 causes of cancer and smoking is #1, but guess what? Obesity and sun exposure are right there too! So you can be a chubby raisin, but you think I need to be educated in the dangers of smoking??? Everyone has their lifestyle choices, good or bad, but I'm pretty sure tanning isn't chemically addictive.

Smoking is the one vice that is okay to be judgmental and holier than thou about, while justifying your own bad habits. This soccer Mom (who ran the PTA!!) will not take kindly to the first person that ever tries to be judgmental about vaping. I'm armed with enough research and information to shut them up quickly.

High fives from one PTA Mom to another PTA Mom!

 

[DC2]

...perhaps more that it promotes already existing tumours rather than causing them outright.

I won't argue that point.

 

[EddardinWinter]

...perhaps more that it promotes already existing tumours rather than causing them outright.

Then I will argue it, DC.

I have also heard this unsupported theory. Again, however, I have seen no studies supporting this position. You cannot expect someone to prove that nicotine does not cause cancer. One cannot prove a negative.

The onus is on the person making the hypothesis to support that hypothesis with evidence. For example, "Nicotine causes existing tumors in regular users of nicotine to grow at a faster rate than non-users". Can you support this with some type of study/evidence?

Even if this were established as true (I do not think it has), is this simply due to the stimulant effect of nicotine? Is it any more tumor accelerating than say caffeine or Adderall? Is the reason the tumors grow faster due to the general metabolic acceleration of the human body, or a specific chemical action of the nicotine? Frankly I don't know if it is or not. I have read more studies saying nicotine is not carcinogenic. Until substantial evidence is presented to the contrary, I proceed as if it is not a likely carcinogen. There is very strong evidence it improves brain function and memory, and little evidence it is a carcinogen outside of smoking tobacco. There are long term studies of SNUS usage that evidence its safe use.

I do know this. Nicotine is a drug that improves my focus and brain function. It may be a toxic drug, but to call it a poison is deceptive. It is a drug that has a low toxic dosage. To call it a poison ignores the beneficial effects this drug has on some people.

 

[xyanide]

I only had a few run-ins with smokers who said: 'So, now that quit and smoke this weird thing doesn't that make you think "what the hell am I still doing?"'
me: 'naw, it's a really enjoyable alternative'
A particularly short-sighted one also went 'Well you don't know what they put in it.' Which I do, and I explained.
Other than that I've only had positive feedback and questions from random smokers and non-smokers. I don't preach and I even converted a few. I let smokers have a puff who are trying to belittle it, the surprised looks on their faces are priceless. When I'm going out for drinks especially I think I talk to at least 10 random people. Talk about a chick magnet!


But let's face it we're still addicts, I often joke about it and generally don't care what people think when I'm vaping. However I don't vape indoors in public places, that's usually asking for trouble. A big shiny vamo with an AGA-T looks very suspicious so I normally don't take that out in public anyway.

I do know this. Nicotine is a drug that improves my focus and brain function. To call it a poison ignores the beneficial effects this drug has on some people.

I did a little investigating on this, nicotine mostly fires the reward circuits in your brain. If anything it should only have a negative effect from withdrawal, which is easily confused for a positive effect while you're on the nic. Not to mention the minor brain development issues if you start young enough.

 

[generic mutant]

...My issue is that people blame nicotine for the harm cigarettes cause, only because it was present at the time. It's like someone dying from a heart attack while watching Steamboat Willie, and everyone laying the blame on Mickey.

OK, but what I'm saying is we've put people in a test tube, added Mickey, and they've had heard murmours, to stretch this analogy to breaking point. That's your preliminary evidence for Russel's Teapot.

If you want studies, just look:

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=nicotine+oncogenesis
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=nicotine+carcinogen
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=nicotine+cancer
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=nicotine+angiogenesis
http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&q=nicotine+pancreas

I'm not going to start linking specific studies - that's pointless, because I'm not referring to a specific study. I'm simply saying "there are lots that assert that there is a link". I'm not an oncologist, and as I said I'm really not qualified to sift through them. It may be that the better metaanalyses point to nicotine not being carcinogenic. DC2's link is interesting, and I'll keep looking out for them. I thought there was an epidemiological link between nicotine and pancreatic cancer, though it seems I may have been wrong about that. But there's enough in vitro evidence that it may have an effect to make me very hesitant to say "It doesn't cause it" without a good deal of evidence to the contrary. I suspect there might be a bit of wishful thinking and confirmation bias going on (this shouldn't be taken as an accusation levelled at you specifically. I have no idea what you know).

 

[AngelsBreath]

Okay, there is a link to drinking and liver disease right? My point of this whole rant is, why is it always the smokers?

 

[Richard75]

But there's enough in vitro evidence that it may have an effect to make me very hesitant to say "It doesn't cause it" without a good deal of evidence to the contrary. I suspect there might be a bit of wishful thinking and confirmation bias going on (this shouldn't be taken as an accusation levelled at you specifically. I have no idea what you know).

But that's the point of the teapot - you don't need evidence to the contrary, you just need lack of evidence overall. Despite what some people say during religious debates, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I'm not denying these people got the results they did, but the key to a scientific study is reproduction. You can get hit by a truck while crossing the street, but that doesn't mean that every time you cross the street you'll get hit by a truck.

What I noticed on the abstract of the "nicotine promotes tumor growth" paper, is that most of the time it was nicotine plus something else. For example, nicotine plus "neovascularization". Remember those old logic questions on school tests? Like, if A = B and B = C, then A = C. That works in mathematics, but not in medical science.

 

[AngelsBreath]

I'm not trying to say whether it's bad or good or safe or not safe, hell, nobody can seem to agree on any of that anyways. My entire point to this whole rant is that everyone comes after the smokers. Why? Can anyone tell me a reason why we are ALWAYS the target of some damn government BS? Why are we in everyone's cross-hairs? My entire rant was this...LEAVE US THE HELL ALONE!!!

 

[DC2]

I'm not trying to say whether it's bad or good or safe or not safe, hell, nobody can seem to agree on any of that anyways. My entire point to this whole rant is that everyone comes after the smokers. Why? Can anyone tell me a reason why we are ALWAYS the target of some damn government BS? Why are we in everyone's cross-hairs? My entire rant was this...LEAVE US THE HELL ALONE!!!

Yes, I can tell you.

It is because we have been demonized by a decades long public brainwashing effort.
And the public is now so thoroughly brainwashed that they feel it is okay to treat us like crap.

And they aren't going to leave us alone until we MAKE them leave us alone.

 

[Red_Bird]

The idiots dont realize that vaping does NOT contribute to the health crisis in America.

They should be protesting and villifying cigarettes, fast food and obesity. These 3 things drive up the cost of health care.

 

[AngelsBreath]

How do we undo decades of brainwashing? I think that maybe they are so used to vilifying smokers that even anything that resembles smoking is grounds for attack. Our vapors hurt no one! What exactly are they attacking?

 

[Stephuhnator]

I'm with you all on this, I'm tired of us being treated like second class citizens, because we're not!! I'm on day 4 no analogs, vaping is the only thing that has made me want to quit!!! Why would they want to take that away from us??

I'm tired of people comin' round me actin' a fool too!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftCmyfZOmZA

 

[Chimney34]

I don't think we can change all of their minds. In order to do that they'd have to be open minded to begin with. Sadly I think it'll take a while. There are many people I've talked to about my pv's...smokers & non smokers who have been truly happy for me...including my doctor. The ones who hate us for being smokers have their own issues or at least that's what I think. Unless you've lost a loved one to smoking I just don't understand. Even then the people I've talked to have come to me in a compassionate manner & not from anger. I think the haters hate something within themselves but they just want to blame us.

 

[AngelsBreath]

lol thanks for the utube, that was funny!

 

[AngelsBreath]

I agree chimney, they have their own demons and instead of facing them they want to try to release us from ours, or rather what they think are our 'demons'.

 

[Stephuhnator]

lol made me laugh too, yw SexySod! Yes, I agree chimney and Sexy, it's not about us, it's about them and they probably don't realize it. I feel fortunate that my doctor and his team were supportive and inquisitive about vaping, my doctor even hugged me, gives me hope for our vaping future.