Why does the medical field know so little about vaping?

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Butters78

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Went in for my yearly checkup recently and the doc asked about my smoking. Told her I had cut back substantially using an electronic cigarette. She then gave me a big smile and said "I think they are great. No tar, no ash. Good for you!"

They aren't all bad. :)

Rise from the ashes!
 

_more_

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Thucydides

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In fairness to doctors, there's no real literature on the impact of vaping. The reason there's no studies on it is likely because there's little or no monetary incentive. If you put together a proposal for a research grant to look at the health impact of vaping, who would fund it?

Enjoy the ignorance while it lasts: Once federal bureaucrats decide it's a good idea to start funding research on e-cigarettes, run for cover, because they're not going to be looking for results that give them a clean bill of health.
 

rolygate

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Pharma is already funding studies that try to show electronic cigarettes have a negative impact. There is a big pot of money for this, because they will lose tens of billions of dollars if ecigs become popular. As an example, just one researcher was paid $850,000 for projects that included watching YouTube videos of vapers, to attempt to show that by inhaling for longer than is used for a tobacco cigarette, vaping must be harmful to the lungs (or some such other ridiculous contention).

On the other hand it is more difficult and expensive to try to demonstrate that ecigs are not harmful. The ultimate test would be a long-term clinical study that showed the relative harm caused by smoking and ecig use in naive users, that is, people who had never done either. Such a trial would not get past ethics committees (at least in the West) and would take decades anyway.

There is also the very important point to be made that concrete evidence or even proof makes no difference to the lies and propaganda published on behalf of commercial rivals, particularly that financed by the pharmaceutical industry and supported by its paid agents in government. Take the Snus data from Sweden, for example: apart from the large amount of epidemiology, over 150 clinical studies from almost three decades show overwhelming evidence that Snus consumption in Sweden is statistically harmless (see Lee & Hamlin's large scale meta-analyses for example). It can be demonstrated that Snus usage does not elevate risk for any disease, and that the health outcomes for Swedish smokers who switch to Snus, or those who quit totally, are the same. The epidemiology (national health statistics) also shows that Sweden has the lowest smoking-related mortality in the developed world by a wide margin; that Sweden has a smoking-related death rate about half the EU average; and that Sweden has the lowest male lung cancer and oral cancer rate in the EU (more men than women use Snus). The statistics also show that Snus consumption has resulted in a reduction of smoking prevalence in Sweden of 45% (male/female averaged), and 55% for men - only about 11% of Swedes now smoke, with an almost unbelievably low figure of around 8% of Swedish men. The death rate from smoking diseases is falling in parallel with the increased usage of Snus. As Snus consumption rose in the last two decades, oral cancer rates fell (Snus cannot be shown to elevate risk for oral cancer, therefore a smoker switching to Snus dramatically reduces risk for oral cancer).

However you would not know any of this from the lies about Snus promulgated by pharmaceutical industry agents such as the FDA. You can be absolutely sure that if/when the same data is available for e-cigarettes, in 25 year's time, it will be denied equally strongly. Too many people will lose too much money if Snus and ecigs are freely available to consumers and if the truth about them is officially promulgated.

Consider this: about 6% of smokers have switched to ecigs already in the US and UK. A 25% market share is inevitable now, the question is simply by what year (perhaps by 2020)? Then we need to ask: what will the eventual reduction in smoking prevalence be? The Swedish data tells us that Snus caused a 45% reduction in smoking there; but we know that ecigs are far more popular with smokers than Snus (and especially with female smokers, who are more reluctant to use Snus, an oral tobacco product). There was a 55% reduction in smoking among men in Sweden, so it is not unreasonable to say that:
a. A similar reduction will occur for both male and female with ecigs; and
b. That ecig uptake will be even higher than that for Snus - perhaps 60%, perhaps even more.

Now consider the problems that creates:
a. The pharmaceutical industry earns $100 billion a year or more from the drug sales for treatment of sick smokers (chemotherapy drugs, COPD drugs, cardiac drugs, vascular drugs, and other treatments and income channels). That income would take a 60% cut.
b. They also earn about $3 billion a year from NRTs and other smoking cessation treatments. This might take an even bigger hit since eventually people will transfer those purchases to ecigs.
c. Some tobacco companies won't have any ecig or Snus plans even when they start to suffer sales shrinkage. They were the first industry to pay for anti-ecig propaganda and there is no reason to believe such opposition has totally ceased - there are reasons why it is reasonable to think that some tobacco money is still flowing into anti-ecig pressure.
d. Governments earn huge sums from tobacco tax. When that starts to vaporise, expect even more official resistance to ecigs - or monster taxes with no justification. The money has to come from somewhere.

And another thing: now that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Snus is the best way to quit cigarettes, and is the safest and most effective way by several orders of magnitude compared to pharmaceutical interventions, exactly how many doctors will advise you (even off the record) to give Snus a try instead of the ineffective or dangerous pharmacotherapies? How many have heard of the Swedish Miracle, or are willing to promote consumer choices instead of pharmaceutical interventions?

Why would you think that in 25 years time doctors will give any sort of different advice concerning e-cigarettes, even if by that stage, like Snus, we know they are highly effective and safe?

Although it's tempting to think that at some stage the medical profession might have figured out that lifestyle changes save many more lives than drug therapies, don't expect it it to become standard medical practice. There is a huge dichotomy between doctors' experiences and official policy: many GPs in the UK will tell you that 80% of patients they see are in their surgery because of lifestyle choices - people are ill because of the way they live. The fix is fairly obvious and it isn't a medical one. Nevertheless a doctor has to offer a pill because that is their job. Until that basic reversal of logic changes to something a lot more sensible, then don't expect things to improve. The medical profession is officially told to offer pills because that is the official solution; anything else is heresy.

Look, until recently doctors didn't even have to know much about nutrition: when the first large-scale tests of people for nicotine in the blood showed that everyone tests positive for nicotine, it was assumed that everyone must therefore be exposed to ETS (2nd hand smoke). The researchers didn't know much about nutrition and didn't realise that nicotine is an entirely normal and natural part of everyone's diet (and that if no nicotine is detected, the diet is likely to be deficient).

Medical knowledge has made immense strides in the last hundred years but let's face it, it's still in the Stone Age, comparatively speaking. If you posited that any more than 1% of the total knowledge of medicine is known at this point in time, you would probably be guilty of the wildest fantasy. That is the basic scale of the issue.

Don't blame doctors, they do the best they can with what they've got and especially under the regime in place - but we have a very, very long way to go. About 99% in fact.
 
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Edd Harbin

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Ppeople in the medical industry , from BP to doctors , who use the excuse of we don't KNOW or we might be sued shows themselves to be used car salesmen . I say this because like used car sales they don'y WANT to know if something is WRONG with what they push . There are so many drugs/procedures that are the next great medical breakthrough ...... then are FOUND to cause major medical problems . They KNOW from FDA aproval and studies that the drug/procedure are good/aproved because its a sales pitch and they KNOW IT . The problem is if they arn't the salesman it's BAD , even if they KNOW BETTER . There is nothing in it for them so not interested ..... Just like a used car salesman . I would have more respect for them if they could just say that they are educated salesmen and buisness is buisness .
 

vsummer1

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Ppeople in the medical industry , from BP to doctors , who use the excuse of we don't KNOW or we might be sued shows themselves to be used car salesmen . I say this because like used car sales they don'y WANT to know if something is WRONG with what they push . There are so many drugs/procedures that are the next great medical breakthrough ...... then are FOUND to cause major medical problems . They KNOW from FDA aproval and studies that the drug/procedure are good/aproved because its a sales pitch and they KNOW IT . The problem is if they arn't the salesman it's BAD , even if they KNOW BETTER . There is nothing in it for them so not interested ..... Just like a used car salesman . I would have more respect for them if they could just say that they are educated salesmen and buisness is buisness .

HOW DARE YOU! I spent a considerable part of my adult life HELPING OTHER PEOPLE, and to say I would not do so if "there is nothing in it for them so not interested" is insulting. I PAID FOR MY EDUCATION to help people and NO, there ISN'T ANYTHING IN IT FOR ME. I enjoy it! And you have the audacity to compare me to a salesman who is only in it for business? I sell NOTHING but my time to help people.

You spend the time, get the grades to pass and then get a job helping people, pay the student loans back for years and then you MAY have the right to tell me I don't care, but until then I truly hope you change your attitude about the people who work in MY field helping others. And after all the time and money invested, lets see if you like NASTY PEOPLE such as yourself telling you that you only do it if there is something in it for YOU. It is people with YOUR nasty attitude that like to sue hard working, dedicated people like ME which is why we CANNOT recommend unproven remedies to YOU!
 
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Edd Harbin

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I have a child psy degree and work with abused children so stuff it . I do what I do because I ENJOY helping people AND it pays . Thankfully my field is better at acepting what works and not what BP says . Also we have more leway with our therapy and aceptance by insurance . But like you I also did this to get paid . I paid for my education and went through my internship hoping that I would make enough to pay off my INVESTMENT and live nice enough . Don't asume someone doesn't know what rthey are talking about . In the PSY field replacement theropy such as e-cig or vaping is much more acepted .
 

vsummer1

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I have a child psy degree and work with abused children so stuff it . I do what I do because I ENJOY helping people AND it pays . Thankfully my field is better at acepting what works and not what BP says . Also we have more leway with our therapy and aceptance by insurance . But like you I also did this to get paid . I paid for my education and went through my internship hoping that I would make enough to pay off my INVESTMENT and live nice enough . Don't asume someone doesn't know what rthey are talking about . In the PSY field replacement theropy such as e-cig or vaping is much more acepted .

And you can't use punctuation or spelling? I doubt your degree, I doubt your whole intention in this thread. What you are doing is called "trolling".
 

Edd Harbin

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I'm not the Troll here . You can Question what you want . I have studied human nature . WE do things like "helping others " because it feels good or nice . That releases certain "drugs" into our brain . WE continue to do tose things because of that feeling . Others say " WOW what a saint , helping others like that !" and that makes us feel good to . Every action has a reason , the overt and the covert . Overt " I do this to HELP OTHERS " but I still get paid . Covert is " when I do these things it FELLS GOOD " I want MORE . Deny what you want , it's how the human body works !
 

Edd Harbin

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Anyone who is offended , sorry . But this is a discusion of human nature . It's is in our nature to do things for others , but we get something in return , feelings , a surge in the brain and a paycheck . It does not not make it wrong . We also as a species tend to like to think the best of ourselves and can blame anything on "Them " . As a society we have shifted blame from ourselves to anyone or anything else . We as ex-smokers know this to be true . The US gov funds healthcare by taxing evil tobac , but would be in even worse finacial problems if smoking was banned . We as care givers do give alot of ourselves to what we do , but in the end we get paid . In the end we get ALOT out of doing what we do .

Alot of people look at Mother Teresa and say " now there goes a saint " , and I would agree . She did what she did and didn't get paid . She did however get the "good feeling " of doing the lords work . We in the medical feild do get paid . We also get that feeling kick .
 

Racehorse

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The Big Pharma reps that descend on doctor's offices with drugs and such don't carrying vaping stuff in their briefcases, along with all that accompanying literature.

That's one reason why medical field doesn't know much about it.

If Big Pharma was selling it, believe me, doctors would be writing prescriptions for the stuff.
 

flintlock62

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Yes, but they are quick to had out drugs that have numerous (and sometimes dangerous) side effects like Chantix, Wellbutrin, ect. I love listening to the Chantix commercial where is says it can cause violent behavior, and maybe even suicidal thoughts.

A lot of people are just plain anti-smoking and wouldn't approve ecigs even if there was no nic in the juice. They want to stay ignorant.
 
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