Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.
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I hope you understand when you use loaded phrases like "must be sad" and "extremist" for those with opposing views you're providing me with reason to be less than confident in your style of persuasion.
A boycott would only cause a business owner to weigh the cost of taking a side. A cost/benefit analysis would ensue. Vapists or general public. Which one would keep the bills paid?
"Show me where I said a stranger should tell you what to approve of on your own property or tell them they're stupid." You realize, you're the stranger in the scenario I laid out right?
Framing the argument in this way also diminished my confidence in your ability to have a respectful conversation with a business or private property owner on the topic. Hope I'm not being too extreme, but I want to make it perfectly clear that your views of respecting someone else's decisions are entirely different than mine.
It's well established that I'm an extremist, an ANTZ, and nana-nana-boo-boo stick your head in doo-doo. I'm glad you brought us back to that level of a discussion. Thanks.
Yeah, I use loaded phrases but you taking what I said and twisting it into telling someone what to do on their property and calling them stupid is pure innocence.
How about I explain it this way. You come into my house and tell me not to vape around you. Instead of me being an extremist and telling you, "This is my property, my rules." I let you tell me why you want that.
You tell me you have issues with my vapor. Scent issues, I've got flavorless I can switch to.
VG issues with breathing, OK, I'll keep it down.
You don't want to inhale second hand vapor, too bad, that's not a real problem.
I avoided smoking in my house, my property when my sister or non-smoking customers came around. You however seem to think it has to be the extreme of your property, your rules or give into everyone's whim but your own.
We have the ability to communicate, there's no reason not to use it.
What argument did I frame? The problem isn't sub-ohmers exploding right and left, sub-ohmers vaping where people can see them or rude vapers. The problem is vapers who've been brainwashed as smokers to believe everything they've been told and they continue to believe it instead of thinking for themselves.
Instead of a united front we have vapers agreeing with those against us and blaming our own.
I pretty much (85%)? agree with what I *think* you are doing but in this post/blog medium it's been coming across a little muddy.
You've been engaging people in conversation, educating. Sometimes winning permission. If you don't get permission and the reason is half-reasonable, you minimize the vaping there or don't vape till later, and it's stealth?
If the person is a deaf ...-hat and won't even talk about it, you lose respect for him/her and you...what...stealth vape when he/she isn't looking?
Sub-ohm in the middle of the room and dare everybody to do something about it?
Pretty much everything except the last I could respect, and like I said, 85% agree with. I think (hope) people have been misreading you due to this medium.
Me, whether or not I speak up depends on whether or not I think I can talk to the person. I can only talk to about 1/2 of people. Less, the farther away you get from Silicon Valley.
I stealth vape and don't ask in a lot of venues. I would not vape where hot food and drinks are not allowed unless it's just to spare the carpets or something. Not in the childrens' section of the library, etc. I DO vape around my grandchildren, with their parents' permission.
So I do less explaining than you, I'm more often ending up explaining "what's that you just put back on your belt" ? as I come in the door to a meeting or something.
And I have absolutely ZERO respect for someone who says I cannot vape in a very open outside area, especially if it's public or quasi-public, and I just stealth vape, sneak, etc. I don't confront if I want to have a good day, but that's not a moral issue, it's a matter of not respecting them enough TO confront. In an area that big, the enforcers are going to be drones who are happy as long as their boss doesn't catch them letting me get away with something. I save the educational chats for smaller venues.
Are we really that far apart? Sorry if I'm presuming here.
You've been engaging people in conversation, educating. Sometimes winning permission. If you don't get permission and the reason is half-reasonable, you minimize the vaping there or don't vape till later, and it's stealth?
If the person is a deaf ...-hat and won't even talk about it, you lose respect for him/her and you...what...stealth vape when he/she isn't looking?
Sub-ohm in the middle of the room and dare everybody to do something about it?
Pretty much everything except the last I could respect, and like I said, 85% agree with. I think (hope) people have been misreading you due to this medium.
Me, whether or not I speak up depends on whether or not I think I can talk to the person. I can only talk to about 1/2 of people. Less, the farther away you get from Silicon Valley.
I stealth vape and don't ask in a lot of venues. I would not vape where hot food and drinks are not allowed unless it's just to spare the carpets or something. Not in the childrens' section of the library, etc. I DO vape around my grandchildren, with their parents' permission.
So I do less explaining than you, I'm more often ending up explaining "what's that you just put back on your belt" ? as I come in the door to a meeting or something.
And I have absolutely ZERO respect for someone who says I cannot vape in a very open outside area, especially if it's public or quasi-public, and I just stealth vape, sneak, etc. I don't confront if I want to have a good day, but that's not a moral issue, it's a matter of not respecting them enough TO confront. In an area that big, the enforcers are going to be drones who are happy as long as their boss doesn't catch them letting me get away with something. I save the educational chats for smaller venues.
Are we really that far apart? Sorry if I'm presuming here.
My guess is those so militant about vaping where smoking is prohibited were either never smokers or haven't quit smoking and want to vape where they can't smoke... Maybe those BLU commercials really were persuasive...
What do you define as militant?
If you define me as militant you couldn't be further from the truth.
I haven't smoked in exactly a month and a week shy of 2 years (don't pay extreme attention to my counter, it's adjusted for days of dual use, it's more of a money counter), I haven't even touched tobacco of any kind. If I had to go outside in bad weather my quit would end because of whoever forced that on me and I would become a dual user.
If you mean militant by those that scream about rights, do it where they probably shouldn't and blow big clouds or are discrete everywhere, my guess is it takes all kinds like everything else.
Bingo!
You have summed up the issue in a nutshell.
Thank you!
That kind of activity always reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome.
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Bingo!
You have summed up the issue in a nutshell.
Thank you!
That kind of activity always reminds me of the Stockholm Syndrome.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndromehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome
As smokers we got so used to being bullied that many of us even accept unreasonable legislation against us (taxes, outdoor bans, online bans...) and believe them when they say "I'm not trying to ban this... just protect kids/the public/etc."
Whenever someone proposes laws about e-cigs and says "The goal is not to ban them...." my left eye starts to twitch.
If the ability to vape is important to you please join CASAA Become a CASAA Member it's free to join. If you have a few bucks laying around with nothing to do why not send the a small donation to help them in their fight for us.
It is difficult, if not impossible for us to individually make a large scale difference bit collectively we have a chance to bring about change.
I've been here before fighting the anti gun zealots. Organizations like the NRA and Buckeye Firearms (locally) make our collective voices heard. As vapors it's the CASSA that will make us heard.
Please do not go gentle in to that good night
It is difficult, if not impossible for us to individually make a large scale difference bit collectively we have a chance to bring about change.
I've been here before fighting the anti gun zealots. Organizations like the NRA and Buckeye Firearms (locally) make our collective voices heard. As vapors it's the CASSA that will make us heard.
Please do not go gentle in to that good night
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Science strongly suggests alot of things to later find it was wrong. Heard of any drugs or treatments being taken off the market after years of use? I choose to believe that vaping is less harmful than smoking but to say harmless... Dont think so!
Hmm. I have a different frame of mind on this. UNLESS someone is a vaper or smoker I will not do it in their house of car. Dont feel I need to be told.
I don't feel I need to persecute myself.
As I said above, we have the means to communicate, it only makes sense to use it.
As I said elsewhere, I vape in all of my family's houses, all of them non or ex smokers. Some are very anti-smoking. One has a medical condition that had us all (when the non-smokers smoked) avoiding her whether we were smoking inside or out. Not a single one of them minds me vaping. Few have ever said anything about smelling it.
Doesn't make much sense in punishing myself because I used to be a smoker does it?
If that's your game more power to you. But I would just as soon buy a flail and flog myself for my past wrong doings.
If anyone doesn't want me to vape in their house, I won't be going to their house.
I don't tolerate stupid.
Thankfully, this is not a problem.
I don't hang around with any stupid people.
That was just as true before I was vaping as it is now.
I don't tolerate stupid.
Thankfully, this is not a problem.
I don't hang around with any stupid people.
That was just as true before I was vaping as it is now.
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There's a difference here.
ALL of the things in e-cigs are LONG-studied for human consumption and are classified GRAS and ALL of them are things you get in much greater amounts than second-hand ecigs if you ever EAT POTATOES, TOMATOES, or quite a few other vegetables.
New drugs are new chemicals. Ecig components are really old, commonly-consumed, chemicals, and not heated to a temperature that changes them.
AND there have been quite a few studies that show exactly HOW much of these chemicals escape into the air, and they all come out to about the same as what is in the air in restaurants.
So unless you believe in actual magic, there is NO WAY for something second-hand from ecigs to harm someone more than restaurant air.
Now, I actually DO know a few people who CAN be harmed by restaurant air. So it's not harmless. Shall we ban restaurants?
Now as far as FIRST-hand exposure, there are 2 ingredients in e-cig vapor that have NOT been studied for FIRST-HAND extended INHALATION exposure: vegetable glycerine and food flavorings. However, again, SECOND-hand these things are all in restaurant air.
Bottom line: if you don't smoke and are not at risk for smoking, it would probably be healthier to not vape. Unless, say, you're a diabetic and it helps you avoid desserts. But that is the FULL extent of the WORST-CASE possible danger. This is not new science, not new chemicals, not groundbreaking in any way other than socially and financially.
One daughter lets me vape in her house with her 2 toddlers present. That's partly because she got tired of me asking her to come watch them for 10 minutes so I could have a vapor break, when I was there to give HER a break from the kids. The going-outside thing had been my idea, I wasn't sure how to explain my vape to the kids. She said "tell them it's your medicine."
The other daughter routinely has guests with dangerous chemical sensitivities, including 2 who can die if they get a strong whiff of citrus oil. I cannot vape in her house. I also cannot wear perfume there, or cook oranges, or a whole lot of other things. If I take food, I have to list all the ingredients. (This is the daughter who suggested I 'give up tar' when I said I'd never give up cigarettes!)
I go to both houses.
To eat, maybe. To heat up, vaporize and inhale? Can you post a study showing how flavorings and preservatives in vape juice have been proven safe to inhale? Ever hear of popcorn lung? Safe to eat, not so much safe to inhale...
You may want to do a little research as to quantities of nicotine found in vegetables, vs. that extracted from tobacco, unless you consume 1000's of pounds of vegetables/week...
To inhale, nicotine and pg are well-studied and GRAS in a wide dose range that covers us. FDA-approved inhalers.
To eat, nic, pg, flavorings and vg.
To inhale SECOND-HAND, all 4. All 4 are in foods we cook. In kitchen and restaurant air.
To eat vegetables is to get a lot more nicotine than you can get from SECOND-HAND vape. That's because nic uptake from 2nd-hand vape HAS been studied and it's 0. Exhaled nicotine from ecigs has been studied and it's way below the nic dose in 2 oz of potatoes. Nic is not a persistent poison anyway, it's a short-term stimulant like caffeine, so fearing that you'll get nic from someone ELSE's vape is absurd for anybody who isn't avoiding ALL nightshades in their diet.
I'm aware that first-hand is totally different, but the 'danger to others' argument is based on SECOND HAND. And those dosages ARE approved for first-hand inhaling in FDA-approved nicotine inhalers, but I assume they do not recommend them for pregnant women. And the doses are STILL smaller than what you get from cigarettes.
Like I said, bottom line, fears that we don't know what we are doing wrt SECOND-HAND are absolute nonsense. First-hand, it is absurd worry that smoking might be safer than vaping.
This is not something we are ASSUMING because we haven't seen harm. It's because it's all well-understood, measured, studied, and there's nothing new here. NOT like a new treatment, new chemical, new drug, new plastic, new pesticide, etc etc.
Like I said, restaurant air is not harmless, but neither is it banned...in restaurants. There are places where it IS banned, and I fully support forbidding vaping in places where it is forbidden to get any food or beverage vapor into the air. My friends who have to be careful what restaurants they go into should not be afraid to take their kids to the library. Or expect to vape in an operating room or ice-making facility or a number of other designated "clean" areas.
I pretty much vape everywhere, at home, work, the grocery store etc. although when vaping indoors outside my house i will make sure nobody is around to be bothered by it, for example ill vape in an empty isle in the super market but not in the check out lane
This is what I think a lot of people tend to overlook when it is mentioned that vaping in crowds, doctor's offices, around people within inhale space. There are so many people with severe allergies, and asthma and while we know what is in our vapor, all they know is one whiff of the wrong thing can at the least require benadryl, and at the worst require a hospital. The flavorings, even when artificial can contain natural oils and such, like peanut, citrus, etc.
Heck my daughter's teacher was rushed to the hospital during class because she is so deathly allergic to ANY kind of perfume being sprayed she went into a severe asthma incident when some disrespectful kid sprayed Axe body spray knowing full well about her classroom being under strict no perfume spray rules.
The scent from vaping stays in enclosed places, part of what I love about it. But also a risk to anyone that may be allergic to the flavoring ingredients themselves. S I simply do just what I did when I smoked (except for the house, I vape in my house I didn't smoke in it). I keep it to my home, my car, places that allow smoking obviously, and that's about it. After 24 years of waiting until we leave a restaurant or movie to smoke it's second nature anyhow. Visiting family depends on who it is. My Mom, no problem, she let me smoke she'll have no issue with vaping.
His family? Not even going to bother, simply because his family is HUGE and stepping outside is a welcome break from the crowd! lol
A good point yes, however i make the argument that in public, including public schools it isnt really your problem if someone has an allergy, for example in high school i was almost expelled for refusing to not bring peanut butter and jelly sandwiches to school because someone had a peanut allergy. It is not my responsibility to cater to he allergies of someone else, it is theirs and in the case of schools and nut allergies/ scent allergies, it should be the school that makes accommodate for the affected child in a way that does not effect the rest of the student body
Edit: i just now saw that it was the teacher not a student that had the scent allergy
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