Wire/coil gauge efficiency testing

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MacTechVpr

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Essentially yes. There is a situation where thicker wire or spaced coils help. If you have an atty that is drinking juice but the vape isn't warm enough for the flavor to shine, less vapor and more heat would be good.

Well put. Interesting test. We should talk more B now that we have this quiet hiatus around here. 'Bout things like the relationship of whetted contact surface to power and airflow. Or the wind's L/W ratio on flow velocity. It comes as no surprise the radiator is by far the coolest vs. twisted. You prolly realize I've been trying to get folks to limit diffusion in their builds to optimize vaporization and flavor. Power is a variable, not an objective. Especially now with the regulated vape.


You prove great work comes from a whole lotta puffin'. :D

Good luck. :)
 

Boden

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Well put. Interesting test. We should talk more B now that we have this quiet hiatus around here. 'Bout things like the relationship of whetted contact surface to power and airflow. Or the wind's L/W ratio on flow velocity. It comes as no surprise the radiator is by far the coolest vs. twisted. You prolly realize I've been trying to get folks to limit diffusion in their builds to optimize vaporization and flavor. Power is a variable, not an objective. Especially now with the regulated vape.


You prove great work comes from a whole lotta puffin'. :D

Good luck. :)
If I die without ever tasting drying-out rayon again. I'll die a happy man :)
 

LilWhiteClouder

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Good question.

I still kinda want one.

Idea! Mega Vapor 8000 Turbo Coil. MV8TC for short. Gotta have a cool abbreviation.

Or the Twisted Troll Dragon :eek::D

I like that. I gotta invent a new coil just so I can use that!
:) the MV8TC coil on a V8 RBA inside the TFV8 that tops VV/VW SSW 218w TC :) LMAO
 
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LilWhiteClouder

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Well put. Interesting test. We should talk more B now that we have this quiet hiatus around here. 'Bout things like the relationship of whetted contact surface to power and airflow. Or the wind's L/W ratio on flow velocity. It comes as no surprise the radiator is by far the coolest vs. twisted. You prolly realize I've been trying to get folks to limit diffusion in their builds to optimize vaporization and flavor. Power is a variable, not an objective. Especially now with the regulated vape.


You prove great work comes from a whole lotta puffin'. :D

Good luck. :)
Those are two coils there with the Posi legs twisted together?
very-interesing_o_149988.jpg

Why did I not think of this before
:glug:
 
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Templar1191

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Boden

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You'd think as someone with PhDs in applied physics and material science, advanced training in electronics and also a Master Electrician I'd know about these things.. Oh wait! I do :D

Most of what you said is quite pointless. Good effort though. I can tell you know something about basic metallurgy.

Oxide layer catalytic activity..? :lol:

Decomposition and fouling... o_O

This amused me greatly.
"Your experimental data looks arbitrary and meaningless btw. You would be best running coils of similar resistances and using pulsing them for a set amount of time with wet cotton. You could weigh them before and after and see what mass of juice was vapourized. Breathing in for a set amount of time at a set power rating is ridiculously imprecise."

Similar resistance... Why would that matter.
Do you have any idea how meaningless that data would be.

Please carry on, I can't wait to see what you write next.

@Robert Cromwell you might want to stick around for this.
 
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Templar1191

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Eskie

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I'll gather from that you're not a scientist? But you do seem to know about metallurgy. I can't say for sure, as I'm not in that field so can't critically evaluate your annealing and tempering techniques. So are you a blacksmith?
 
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Templar1191

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Templar1191

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Duly noted retired! We need to maintain our safe spaces. Here is my amended reply.

The coil is quenched to harden it. This makes the metal more resistant to working; to make it harder and less easy to deform plastically. It will hold shape better when you are threading it. When heated to a higher temperature, some common metals will experience change in the crystalline grain structure. This occurs due to precipitation in the metal "solution" of different crystalline forms of the metal. I only really know about high iron content steels. Kanthal and SS metals would come under this broad definition.

The crystalline structure of iron changes as it gets heated up. Once it reaches melting, there are no crystals left in the "solid solution". The rate of cooling, eg time taken and liquid used (water vs oil) has a major effect on the crystal structure of the cooled metal solution. Over quenching and then not annealing leads to hard, but very brittle metal tools. However, the tiny diameter of the wire used here shouldnt have any issues with rapid quench cooling without annealing.

If you like to read, this is a better source about quench hardening of solid solutions.
What is the Difference between Heat Treatment, Annealing, and Tempering?(link)

Think of this like concrete without aggregate vs concrete with just sand. Aggregate has a much wider particle size, from small COPYRIGHTDMCA down to tiny sub mm diameter quartz. Having a range of different sized aggregate particles in the cement increases strength and toughness of the concrete or cement or whatever the proper name is

Some metals, eg titanium, do not quench harden. They quench soften, through a similar but opposite process to steel.

When metal working, e.g making a knife from steel stock, quench hardening is accomplished using oil. This slows the cooling rate as oils have a much lower specific heat capacity than water and will not flash evaporate. Furthermore, quenching in water will not prevent formation of oxides.

What happens when you get a red hot metal and dip it in water? The hot surface allows greater diffusion and reaction between the metal and the water. The hot metal, if steel or iron, will reduce water to oxide ions and/or hydrogen gas (traces). This forms metal oxides.

IF you want to reduce oxide layer formation, you should quench in diesel or a very light oil (Diesel??? just rinse it off afterwards with acetone you baby). Baby oil/mineral oil or cooking oil would reduce the formation of the oxide layer (you wont prevent it)
As the metal is heated more the thickness of the oxide layer increases. Btw this is irrelevant just wanted to let you know I earned my degree
If you heat the coil to yellow or white hot and quench, you may find you get a very brittle coil. Stress it too much and it will crack or snap when handling.

This brings me to the most important part of the post. Dry firing coils produces thick oxide layers on teh surface of the coils. This in turn provides a porous oxide ceramic film on top of the metal, even if the metal doesnt look like its covered in thick white oxide. Chrome and nickel can oxides possess significant catalytic properties. Not only that, but the high surface area microscopic "pitted" oxide layer will increase the rate of fouling of the coil and decomposition of thejuice.

How to deal with this??? Pickle the coils in HCl 30% or a mix of nitric acid and HCl. Metal picking relies on the reaction between acidic species and basic oxide layers. These will react with and dissolve the oxide layer on the coil and smooth the surface. An immersion of the coil for a few seconds in teh acid followed by rinse and repeat until the coil is shin again. Can then polish it if you can really be bothered (only for aesthetics, the smoothness wouldnt have much performance gain.

You can also "pickle" the metal to remove oxide layers by placing the coils in an ultrasonic bath with an abrasive slurry, eg alumina or zirconia. This is called eco pickling.

Once out in the air again, the shiny metal will form a very fine oxide layer. This will be much thinner and smoother than the one produced during high heating a water quenching and should be a good balance between a porous coil surface and shielding the juice from catalytic properties of metals in the alloy (eg Ni and Cr).

The nickel and chrome metals have great catalytic activity and the oxide layer shields them. But, a thicker porous oxide layer will hinder mass transfer of juice and heat transfer, resulting in more microscopic hot spots on teh coil surface. Oxides have a milder catalytic ability than the metal, hence we want a minimal layer thickness.

Your experimental data looks arbitrary and meaningless btw. You would be best running coils of similar resistances and using pulsing them for a set amount of time with wet cotton. You could weigh them before and after and see what mass of juice was vapourized. Breathing in for a set amount of time at a set power rating is ridiculously imprecise.

Ridiculously imprecise

You could then adjust the numbers for coil resistance and output or whatever if you wanted to get fancy.

These radiator coils are interesting. The temp of the vapour getting into your lungs will be dependent on many factors, eg the velocity of air being sucked through the RDA and how you hold your mouth. Compression of gasses through flow streams will result in heating of that surrounding pipe or tube. Compresion and sudden expansion will allow heat to be dissapated from a hotter source, the compressed air, and then sudden cooling as the gas expands into a larger diameter opening. My tsunami RDA has a similar feature to it. Expansion of diameter as it gets closer to your mouth.

Just keep doing your science. I will build a radiator coil at some stage. These coils may have benefits to claptons in rate of decomposition of juice as it is vapourized. Claptosn freature a lot of tight spaces, great for stagnation and overheating of fluids. But this may increase the wicking capacity of the clapton as well as juice will be attracted to -OH groups on the oxide layer of the metal and claptons probably have more surface area as the narrower wire exterior doesnt carry current and acts solely as a heat spreader.

Radiators will reduce the number of lower diffusive flux regions on the coil, at the price of running current through all the wires instead of the core.

Reporting my comments isnt going to save you from being called out.
 

Templar1191

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Instead of sitting their slack jawed and dumbfounded and finger on the "delete what I dont like" button, maybe you can produce some rebuttals to the scientific criticism I have clearly laid out for you.

Retired1: of course. I acknowledge the rules of the land as they are presented at this stage.

But you should ban me right now if you think this pseudoscientist is above criticism
 

Boden

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Duly noted retired! We need to maintain our safe spaces. Here is my amended reply.

My replies are in blue

The coil is quenched to harden it. This makes the metal more resistant to working; to make it harder and less easy to deform plastically. It will hold shape better when you are threading it. When heated to a higher temperature, some common metals will experience change in the crystalline grain structure. This occurs due to precipitation in the metal "solution" of different crystalline forms of the metal. I only really know about high iron content steels. Kanthal and SS metals would come under this broad definition.

Hardens only if taken over the upper critical temp.

The crystalline structure of iron changes as it gets heated up. Once it reaches melting, there are no crystals left in the "solid solution". The rate of cooling, eg time taken and liquid used (water vs oil) has a major effect on the crystal structure of the cooled metal solution. Over quenching and then not annealing leads to hard, but very brittle metal tools. However, the tiny diameter of the wire used here shouldnt have any issues with rapid quench cooling without annealing.

For some metals, yes

If you like to read, this is a better source about quench hardening of solid solutions.
What is the Difference between Heat Treatment, Annealing, and Tempering?(link)

What is shown in the video is stress relieving under the upper critical temp.

Think of this like concrete without aggregate vs concrete with just sand. Aggregate has a much wider particle size, from small COPYRIGHTDMCA down to tiny sub mm diameter quartz. Having a range of different sized aggregate particles in the cement increases strength and toughness of the concrete or cement or whatever the proper name is

Some metals, eg titanium, do not quench harden. They quench soften, through a similar but opposite process to steel.

When metal working, e.g making a knife from steel stock, quench hardening is accomplished using oil. This slows the cooling rate as oils have a much lower specific heat capacity than water and will not flash evaporate. Furthermore, quenching in water will not prevent formation of oxides.

What happens when you get a red hot metal and dip it in water? The hot surface allows greater diffusion and reaction between the metal and the water. The hot metal, if steel or iron, will reduce water to oxide ions and/or hydrogen gas (traces). This forms metal oxides.

IF you want to reduce oxide layer formation, you should quench in diesel or a very light oil (Diesel??? just rinse it off afterwards with acetone you baby). Baby oil/mineral oil or cooking oil would reduce the formation of the oxide layer (you wont prevent it)
As the metal is heated more the thickness of the oxide layer increases. Btw this is irrelevant just wanted to let you know I earned my degree
If you heat the coil to yellow or white hot and quench, you may find you get a very brittle coil. Stress it too much and it will crack or snap when handling.

Simplified but correct

This brings me to the most important part of the post. Dry firing coils produces thick oxide layers on teh surface of the coils. This in turn provides a porous oxide ceramic film on top of the metal, even if the metal doesnt look like its covered in thick white oxide. Chrome and nickel can oxides possess significant catalytic properties. Not only that, but the high surface area microscopic "pitted" oxide layer will increase the rate of fouling of the coil and decomposition of thejuice.

Mostly Al2O3 on Kanthal. The rate of fouling would depend greatly on the composition of the juice. Primarily the sugar content.

How to deal with this??? Pickle the coils in HCl 30% or a mix of nitric acid and HCl. Metal picking relies on the reaction between acidic species and basic oxide layers. These will react with and dissolve the oxide layer on the coil and smooth the surface. An immersion of the coil for a few seconds in teh acid followed by rinse and repeat until the coil is shin again. Can then polish it if you can really be bothered (only for aesthetics, the smoothness wouldnt have much performance gain.

You can also "pickle" the metal to remove oxide layers by placing the coils in an ultrasonic bath with an abrasive slurry, eg alumina or zirconia. This is called eco pickling.

Once out in the air again, the shiny metal will form a very fine oxide layer. This will be much thinner and smoother than the one produced during high heating a water quenching and should be a good balance between a porous coil surface and shielding the juice from catalytic properties of metals in the alloy (eg Ni and Cr).

The nickel and chrome metals have great catalytic activity and the oxide layer shields them. But, a thicker porous oxide layer will hinder mass transfer of juice and heat transfer, resulting in more microscopic hot spots on teh coil surface. Oxides have a milder catalytic ability than the metal, hence we want a minimal layer thickness.

I find the thickness of the oxide layer to be a insignificant factor. 1-2% decrease in heat transfer at best.

Your experimental data looks arbitrary and meaningless btw. You would be best running coils of similar resistances and using pulsing them for a set amount of time with wet cotton. You could weigh them before and after and see what mass of juice was vapourized. Breathing in for a set amount of time at a set power rating is ridiculously imprecise.

Ridiculously imprecise

It's a relative data set. The test duration compensates for small variations in timing and air velocity.

You could then adjust the numbers for coil resistance and output or whatever if you wanted to get fancy.

Coil resistance is irrelevant when using VW

These radiator coils are interesting. The temp of the vapour getting into your lungs will be dependent on many factors, eg the velocity of air being sucked through the RDA and how you hold your mouth. Compression of gasses through flow streams will result in heating of that surrounding pipe or tube. Compresion and sudden expansion will allow heat to be dissapated from a hotter source, the compressed air, and then sudden cooling as the gas expands into a larger diameter opening. My tsunami RDA has a similar feature to it. Expansion of diameter as it gets closer to your mouth.

Just keep doing your science. I will build a radiator coil at some stage. These coils may have benefits to claptons in rate of decomposition of juice as it is vapourized. Claptosn freature a lot of tight spaces, great for stagnation and overheating of fluids. But this may increase the wicking capacity of the clapton as well as juice will be attracted to -OH groups on the oxide layer of the metal and claptons probably have more surface area as the narrower wire exterior doesnt carry current and acts solely as a heat spreader.

Radiators will reduce the number of lower diffusive flux regions on the coil, at the price of running current through all the wires instead of the core.

You lost me at "lower diffusive flux regions"
 
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Boden

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This test was not done to show absolute reference data but a relative trend. This is a simple thermal mass equation. The less area a set amount of heat is generated from the hotter the surface will be. That's why the 30ga coils evaporated more juice than the thicker coils. Quite simply the wire surface temp is higher because it's thinner.

The radiator coils are more effiecient because they have a smaller wind shadow opposate the incoming airflow and a thinner turbulent boundary layer.
 
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MacTechVpr

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Those are two coils there with the Posi legs twisted together?
View attachment 589999
Why did I not think of this before
:glug:

To give credit where due, this adaptation of strain was inspired by
@MattyB1503's 1/2/14 post…Micro Coils to increase Vapor, flavor & TH | Page 454 | E-Cigarette Forum | Post #9076. The distinction being that my revival of the wind was comprised of pulse oxidized Kanthal counter-wound tensioned m.c.'s such that the superior positive leads exit rotation in parallel. Not simply twisted or splayed leads, a demo of strain to enhance wind stability and performance.



Thx for the nod LWC. Good luck. :)
 

Templar1191

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Have you calculated the surface area of the radiator coils vs thicker wire coils?
It is true that if you radiate 100J of heat off a 1cm^2 surface vs 2cm^2 surface, that the smaller surface will reach a higher temperature.
However, the boiling point of your juice will limit the temperature the surface reaches, provided the surface does not run dry. There are some limitations to this, as a yellow hot piece of steel quenched in water will not cool to 100C instantly, but that involves very large amounts of heat transfer and massive amounts of vapour production. It is unlikely that your coil will exceed the BP temp of your juice unless you're working for a stage production. I doubt it would do this during normal operation with a well-wet wick.

The "wind shadow" you refer to is not a term I am familiar with but you seem to mean the region of eddgy currents that form on the other side of an object in a fluid stream where the flow regime (eg reynolds number) is turbulent. This wind shadow scales with object size and flow regime but again I dont think its going to make enough of a difference to be worth researching.

Glycerol is not a sugar. By the same logic, methanol is a sugar because it contains hydroxy groups and the same could be said for ethylene glycol. If the juices contained sugar, your coil and wick would fowl up within minutes with caramel and char. Decomposition and fouling are a function of juice flow from the wick to the coil surface, duration of each vape, temperature of the coil and VG content (and flavours to a lesser extent). Fluids higher in VG will produce thicker clouds, but as VG content exceeds 70% the boiling point gets closer to 290C, where large amounts of decomposition of the VG will occur.

The oxide layer on the coil wont significantly effect heat transfer unless it is very thick and visible, like the oxide layer on a dry fired Ti coil. It may however react with the juice (e.g. nickel oxide on nickel coils combined with a tart/sour juice), it will significantly increase the porosity of the coil surface.

Lets use another example. Spongebob is lying on a hot element, face down. Water close to the surface of his back being heated will vapourize and create a local pressure increase. Water will continue to evaporate at a rate that cannot be replaced by simple capillary action through the sponge. Eventually spongebob will burn, even if water is applied to the side facing up. Poor spongebob.
Drier regions will begin to heat up above the juice BP as they dry out thus facilitating greater decomposition of juice.

The reason your juice is going brown and your coil is fouling is because of high temperatures decomposing the juice. Decomposition products of e-juice are primarily formed from flavouring esters and glycerin as PG boils well below its decomposition point. The hotter you run your coils and the more immediate the vapour production, the more decomposition will be occuring, producing yummy goodies like formaldehyde, acetaldehyde, dihydroxyacetone and a number of other components.

The resistance is relevant. If you want to compare the efficiency of using different coils, you need to have coils with similar resistances and wetted surface area. Yes, they will all run the same power (W) but a coil with half the surface area of another will deplete juice in contact with the coil more rapidly. This effectively imposes a greater mass transfer limit for juice to move through the wick and to the coil. You could have 1 wire the same length as 2 smaller wires with the same collective surface area and see how that performs. Im sure it will perform better, like claptons do.

However, your radiator coils, while having greater surface area, are not without drawbacks. As mentioned before, same with claptons, tighter nooks and crannies on your coils will produce more hot spots and possibly lead to significantly more juice decomposition and fouling. On the other hand, provided the wick is kept well wet and you arent overpowering the coil, the additional nooks and crannies will retain more fluid and improve the capillary action.

Depending on the type of metal on the coil, hydroxides may form in addition to oxides. These hydroxy groups on the surface will form hydrogen bonds with the Pg and VG in the e-juice and improve wetting of the coil.
 
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