WTA is the future

[Stubby]

Have any link to studies that talk about this more. Interested in how nic only liquid causes "mental desert" I just go in to nic commas but I noticed since vaping I have been getting less done I don't know if it is other factors. Want to learn more about or if it is just fear mongering. Thanks

I have read a few studies that hint at that fact that there is more to tobacco then just nicotine. I know of no studies that compare nicotine only to the full spectrum of alkaloids in tobacco. It certainly would be interesting if it happened. There is a good deal of anecdotal evidence just from this forum. There is really no doubt something is going on.

Something to always keep in mind is that WTA and nicotine only e-liquid are going to have very different reactions for different people. That's one of the big lessons we have been learning in this whole PV experiment. I always qualify everything I say about WTA as "some people", or "a percentage of people". There are no absolutes in this. The quote of a mental desert was from a friend of mine on the forum. He was describing his state of mind on nicotine only liquid. Of course that is his reaction and not an absolute, or even close to an absolute. I had my own unique experience which I could describe as "it just ain't worth it to get out of the damn bed today". but that was mine, and nobody else can have it.

Writing this with a potion of a real tasty Swedish snus between the upper lip and gum, and checking daily for Aroma to get some WTA e-liquid in stock.

 

[Adik Ted]

I tried Quest cigarettes in the past. These were made from genetically modified tobacco that had only trace nicotine content. They tasted exactly like a cigarette and had the same throat hit but were completely unsatisfying. Putting that together with my vaping experiences I presume what's missing from ejuice is an effective delivery system for the nicotine. Is this what WTA addresses?

 

[rothenbj]

Just to update: Last week I did a day of 'nic only', and felt quite good most of the day. The amount of ejuice I vaped through the day was about 4.5ml (24mg); 3 times more than the WTA ejuice of the preceding days (1.5ml - 18mg). So, I started another day of 'nic only'.

The 2nd day, I felt a bit antsy from the beginning, and late in the afternoon, I noticed my thoughts wandering toward analogs. A few drags of WTA juice took care of the urge pretty quick, and I vaped about .5ml the rest of the night.

Mike, I could have quoted your entire post, but since it was so long I only took the first couple paragraphs. My history, other than the stomach issues is so similar. I felt no peer pressure to smoke, just started at 19 while in college feeling depressed about everything. I never put two and two together until the last couple years ago when I realized it wasn't environmental depression as much as physiological depression.

I spent 6 months where vaping really helped, but I could only go a day without smoking and I'd think of nothing else the next. It was all good at first, I just had a half dozen smokes and vaped in between figuring over time I'd cut out the cigarettes. I wasn't working at the end- 6 became 8 and I was edging to ten.

Snus ended all that as I'm edging to that 2 year mark. I know I have 2 sources of WTA now so I'm a happy camper. For those like a number of the posters here that nic only just doesn't get you there, alternatives are available,

Also, before I forget, Congrats Stubby on 2.5 years (we won't count those 5 drags). I'll to be there next year because the last time I considered a drag on a smoke was at the 6 mo. mark and that was only curiosity on why it took so long. I kmow that too- thank you government for the lies. Anyway, saw your post across the tracks and forgot to comment.

 

[tierrataz]

One thing I find curious about my vaping experience is how long I spiraled. Mental desert? Not for me, I was paralyzed and then the apathy grew. I know from the big threads, the half life of these alkaloids is not that long. I think I did nic only pretty well for the first 6-7 months. When I realized I was sliding down a slippery slope, it felt like a nose dive. I am so thankful to the pioneers with chemical backgrounds that investigated what so many were missing.

Now 2 months into WTA and I can happily report a 50-75% reduction in the ml I vape daily of nic only. WTA usage is typically 0.50 ml, with occasional days closer to 1.0 ml. No increase in my cravings for WTA as some naysayers predict. This lab rat is a happy vaper coming up on one year.

 

[kinabaloo]

I tried Quest cigarettes in the past. These were made from genetically modified tobacco that had only trace nicotine content. They tasted exactly like a cigarette and had the same throat hit but were completely unsatisfying. Putting that together with my vaping experiences I presume what's missing from ejuice is an effective delivery system for the nicotine. Is this what WTA addresses?

This could well be part of it; but almost certainly not all. (These two are not really distinct but interacting.)

The other alkaloids are known to make nicotine intake spike and avoid the 'boiling frogs' effect. This is one part of the satiation - it seems to depend on the spke (rates of change) more than absolute levels.

Beyond that though there are other more complex factors. To (over)simplify, while nicotine activates certain neuro-bio-chemical pathways, the other alkaloids activate others. The decades of WTA use through smoking and snus use shows these to be in a well-tolerated and well-appreciated balance.

Hence, changing the formula, so to speak, to just nicotine will change that balance. It seems that the nicotine always was most important for some (probably the minority) whereas the other alkaloids were important to varying degrees for others. For those people, they will feel "something missing". Depending where one is in the spectrum, continued use of the new just-nic formula could lead to positive adaptation, or to it increasing the imbalances (for these people there is no 'right level of nic' to be found; that's not the answer).

 

[ChodaBoy]

I think it is very funny that people think that E- cigarettes aren't going to be taxed and regulated as a tobacco product when that is exactly what is currently happening. I for one am happy that is what happened, because if courts had found that e-cigs were a tobacco replacment product you could say good bye to a legal sale for at least 10 to 15 years while they researched. However since they have been found to be tobacco products by the courts they will be regulated and taxed starting the beginning of the year. so get ready for price increaces at least on your juices people.

 

[rothenbj]

I think it is very funny that people think that E- cigarettes aren't going to be taxed and regulated as a tobacco product when that is exactly what is currently happening. I for one am happy that is what happened, because if courts had found that e-cigs were a tobacco replacment product you could say good bye to a legal sale for at least 10 to 15 years while they researched. However since they have been found to be tobacco products by the courts they will be regulated and taxed starting the beginning of the year. so get ready for price increaces at least on your juices people.

Did you warp into the wrong thread?

 

[Adik Ted]

This could well be part of it; but almost certainly not all. (These two are not really distinct but interacting.)

The other alkaloids are known to make nicotine intake spike and avoid the 'boiling frogs' effect. This is one part of the satiation - it seems to depend on the spke (rates of change) more than absolute levels.

Beyond that though there are other more complex factors. To (over)simplify, while nicotine activates certain neuro-bio-chemical pathways, the other alkaloids activate others. The decades of WTA use through smoking and snus use shows these to be in a well-tolerated and well-appreciated balance.

Hence, changing the formula, so to speak, to just nicotine will change that balance. It seems that the nicotine always was most important for some (probably the minority) whereas the other alkaloids were important to varying degrees for others. For those people, they will feel "something missing". Depending where one is in the spectrum, continued use of the new just-nic formula could lead to positive adaptation, or to it increasing the imbalances (for these people there is no 'right level of nic' to be found; that's not the answer).

Thanks for the reply kinabaloo.

 

[Katya]

Have any link to studies that talk about this more. Interested in how nic only liquid causes "mental desert" I just go in to nic commas but I noticed since vaping I have been getting less done I don't know if it is other factors. Want to learn more about or if it is just fear mongering. Thanks

Aaron, I can only give you my own take of this. I don't think that nicotine alone causes "mental desert" or any other symptoms you're describing. Those symptoms are very well known and have been described in painful detail by everybody who ever tried to quit smoking--they are smoking withdrawal symptoms. That's why it's so hard to quit smoking. The question we have been all asking ourselves here is "What is it EXACTLY in that cigarette smoke that is so addictive?" In my case, it didn't matter if I tried to quit cold turkey, with NRT products (tried them all), with Wellbutrin (that thing turned me into a raving lunatic even though it's an anti-depressant) or vaping. The symptoms were always the same: lethargy, depression, weepiness, irritation, profound sense of loss and hopelessness, inability to concentrate--mental desert.

The only thing that helped me was a combination of Swedish snus (WTA?) and vaping (hand to mouth + nic), plus occasional use of dissolvables and CigRX, and even all that is not exactly like smoking a cigarette. But it worked. And it gets better with time.

As for studies, there have been several studies trying to find that missing unknown ingredient. The most notable of them is the Yale University study we discussed here before. They added selegiline (an MAO-B inhibitor) patches to nicotine patches for smoking cessation. Here's but one discussion with my dear friend Madame Psychosis from a long time ago... And look, DVap was there too....

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-getting-we-not-nicotine-198.html#post1313103

If you're really curious, Google selegiline and smoking cessation or MAO inhibitors and smoking cessation. Just for starters.

I've been waiting for WTA eliquids for almost two years now.

That said, there are plenty of people who switched to vaping and quit smoking successfully and painlessly using nicotine ONLY! Many of them have managed to go down to 0 mg nicotine, they are doing fine and continue to vape just for the pleasure vaping gives them (with or without nicotine). And that's a fact.

 

[rothenbj]

Katya, it's interesting that you mention Wellbutrin and the effects it had on you. Of all the quit smoking attempts I had and I had close to (if not more than) two dozen of them with every method imaginable sans Chantix, that was the one attempt that had a very positive result for me. I went for 3 months with absolutely no desire to smoke and no negative psychological effects. I was extremely proud that I had finally quit smoking. Then the script ran out.

I was good for a few days and my attitude changed, I was getting edgy and depressed and concentration was not good. At the time I was a programmer and I couldn't think to write code and that's what I was paid to do. I don't think I lasted a half week before I was back on smokes. I went back to get another script and the doc informed me that since I hadn't had continuous use the insurance company wouldn't pay for another 3 months.

Not once did he mention that perhaps it was so successful because I might be a depression sufferer and go down that road. I guess in his mind I just had no willpower. This journey enabled me to put two and two together. Other than the extra 20 some years of smoking, perhaps it was good not to be on antidepressants all those years, I'll never know. The Wellbutrin may have stopped working and I good have been a lab rat for every new drug on the market and had serious issues from that use, who knows.

I do know that one drug worked really well for my longest quit before this one and I know this one is the last one.

Your post really point to how different we really all are in not only why we smoked but what it takes to find a way out. How I wish I had only been a hand to mouth-er. Life would have been so much easier and my bank account just that much bigger, although I probably wouldn't have met a lot of the nice people I met along the way without those stolen minutes from work and play.

 

[Katya]

Roth, Wellbutrin (Zyban) is a dangerous drug; not as dangerous as Chantix, but some people have terrible reactions to it--or to withdrawal from it. I also managed to quit for about 4 months, gained 30 lbs and felt weird, but I was smokefree. The problems for me started when I thought I was quit and tried to get off Wellbutrin (which, BTW, is what one is supposed to do). I thought I was going mad, and getting back on Wellbutrin only made things worse. I remember one night, we were having dinner, I was swallowing tears, then I just got up, threw a plate of spaghetti against the wall, got into my car, drove to a gas station, got a pack of smokes and took a drag. I thought it would kill me--it was so strong and disgusting, made me dizzy. An hour later I had another one--and I was whole again.

I'm not the only one; there are many, many people who had similar reactions; just do a search for Zyban here on ECF....

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...t-covering-up-chantix-deaths.html#post3449338

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...t-covering-up-chantix-deaths.html#post3452918

EDIT: I just read the whole thread... only to find you there. That's funny....

Another cessation aid goes up in smoke > Facts & Fears > ACSH

 

[Off Topic]

I decided to join the ranks of the WTA lab rats. I'm glad I did. Mine came from Ethan Huff.

My problem with nicotine replacement systems(gum, patches, vaping), is that nicotine is a stimulant. The cocktail of chemicals in tobacco is a stimulant with an anti-anxiety effect. So, in a stressful situation, I found myself wound up and really ...... off. I quit smoking with nicotine replacements and Valerian tea a few years ago.... and gained 80lbs....

I relapsed on smoking a few months ago and have tossed them forever with my vape.... but there was still something missing. I found myself vaping way too much nicotine.

I'm vaping 24mg XHigh WTA right now and I'm very relaxed. I'm still going to use straight nic vape for when I'm waking up, and at work. But, if I start to stress out and when I'm winding down at the end of the day, It's WTA time.

Chill.

Chantix. What a miserable drug. I never had the impulse to axe murder my family while on it. They were close to axe murdering me, though. I wouldn't wish that miserable drug on anyone.

 

[kinabaloo]

Chantix. What a miserable drug. I never had the impulse to axe murder my family while on it. They were close to axe murdering me, though. I wouldn't wish that miserable drug on anyone.

lol

I'm vaping 24mg XHigh WTA right now and I'm very relaxed. I'm still going to use straight nic vape for when I'm waking up, and at work. But, if I start to stress out and when I'm winding down at the end of the day, It's WTA time.

That's one reasonable approach (some of the other alkaloids have a longer half-life than nic.). An alternative would be a blend; some people may be fine on as little as, say, 1/4 WTA, 3/4 nic-only. One could start there and work upwards as necessary. As ever, everyone will be a bit different and there's some finding one's way involved.

 

[kinabaloo]

I don't think that nicotine alone causes "mental desert" or any other symptoms you're describing. Those symptoms are very well known and have been described in painful detail by everybody who ever tried to quit smoking--they are smoking withdrawal symptoms.

Indeed, it is not the nicotine that causes the symptoms, but as I have been saying, 'the use of nicotine-alone'. I think I see the confusion now; to be absolutely clear - it is the absence of the other alkaloids that can lead, in some people, to these symptoms, not the nicotine itself.

However, further, it is logical that continued use of just-nic could, for these people, make these symptoms worse, because it will be pushing the imbalance (stoking the craving for the missing alkaloids).

That said, there are plenty of people who switched to vaping and quit smoking successfully and painlessly using nicotine ONLY! Many of them have managed to go down to 0 mg nicotine, they are doing fine and continue to vape just for the pleasure vaping gives them (with or without nicotine). And that's a fact.

A fact for sure. I've always said that those who only nic have a relatively easy path to total cessation. For these people smoking was always more of a simple stimulant for which the other alkaloids did little (beyond aiding the nicotine spike).

 

[Off Topic]

I agree that the WTA chemicals have a longer half life. I'm only using the WTA juice after work and the relaxed feeling lasts through sleep and well into the next day.

Relaxed feeling... that's a lie.

Stoned is a better description of the effect.

 

[rothenbj]

Yup Katya, every drug has different effects on people. I had none of those issues with Zyban, just that gnawing craving for a cigarette one I stopped using it, up a wall cravings. Kind of made me wonder about the CT folk who claim that goes away after 3 or 4 days. The only attempt I made after that was hypnosis AGAIN and that was just as successful as the first time I tried, just a lot more expensive. After that I became a confirmed smoker.....until now.

Now I'm a confirmed ex-smoker!

 

[rothenbj]

I agree that the WTA chemicals have a longer half life. I'm only using the WTA juice after work and the relaxed feeling lasts through sleep and well into the next day.

Relaxed feeling... that's a lie.

Stoned is a better description of the effect.

emphasis mine

Can't say I've had that feeling. For a while a long time ago I smoked a pipe and that was more how I've felt on WTA. Of course part of that might be the unique flavors Ethan develops and my inclination to mix various flavors together to my tastes.

 

[AaronY]

I think it is very funny that people think that E- cigarettes aren't going to be taxed and regulated as a tobacco product when that is exactly what is currently happening. I for one am happy that is what happened, because if courts had found that e-cigs were a tobacco replacment product you could say good bye to a legal sale for at least 10 to 15 years while they researched. However since they have been found to be tobacco products by the courts they will be regulated and taxed starting the beginning of the year. so get ready for price increaces at least on your juices people.

\
I keep hearing there are going to be taxed next year. But the sooner it comes the less I am hearing about it. Think it will be more then a 200% tax?

 

[kinabaloo]

As there's no proven harm there's no rationale for a sin tax.

It might be a tobacco extract, but with no combustion. As a harm reduction product where is the reasoning ?

There is no justification.

 

[Ruppy]

\
I keep hearing there are going to be taxed next year. But the sooner it comes the less I am hearing about it. Think it will be more then a 200% tax?

There is legislation in Committee. There is NO taxation legislation as of yet. Bill s1403 is the only one I have seen. It is still a long way from reality. Everyone can still go to popvox and voice their opinion.

https://www.popvox.com/bills/us/112/s1403