WTA is the future

[rothenbj]

Beauty, Mr Mann, is in the eyes of the beholder. I've had both and a lot would appear to come down to flavors and availability in my mind. I've had much more of Ethan's than Aroma's, but I did get a small bottle from a friend who had extra from Jerry's version and I liked it. At some point, I'll give it a second look but I'm pretty supplied up at the moment.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Well, rothenbj, if "beauty" can be attributed to both, then all must be good in Vapelicious land! Thanks!

 

[Smokalo]

Well I really don't mean to be a buzzkill or a party pooper but the tobacco alkaloids are the things in tobacco that actually bring about some of the negative effects of tobacco, such as the extremely strong nicotine dependency, cancer, among many others.

Here are some links for those interested:

Anatabine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X05003379

 

[Mr.Mann]

Not a buzzkill at all! What you (smokalo) provided is information. There is a lot of information out there that we all need to be cognizant of! However, I think it would be safe to say that WTA is in no way shape or form equal or remotely close to the combustion of tobacco.

Once again, you provided information, period. I will read it and file it in my brain accordingly. I am thankful to anyone that schools me on anything I didn't know...my party has not been pooped on or interrupted. Thanks for the link!

 

[radiokaos]

Well I really don't mean to be a buzzkill or a party pooper but the tobacco alkaloids are the things in tobacco that actually bring about some of the negative effects of tobacco, such as the extremely strong nicotine dependency, cancer, among many others.

Here are some links for those interested:

Anatabine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0300483X05003379

Smokalo,

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think some people might be misinformed. I figure maybe I can shed a little bit of light on this topic since these issues have been mentioned several times before. If you want to discuss Nitrosamines then maybe we should discuss hamburgers and putting them on the grills this coming holiday weekend. Add the fact that your BBQ burgers might even include PAH (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) if you are ingesting smoked foods. PAH is also a result of burning tobacco which Eliquids don't have. While you are at it make sure you also avoid beer that is darker in color because that might be a indicator of Nitrosamines as well.

http://www.apocp.org/cancer_download/Volume11_No6/c 1713-17 11.23 Eduardo De Stefani.pdf

Avoiding Carcinogens to Reduce Cancer Risk | Medicine Web

If you want to mitigate the risks of cancer I suggest you quit vaping, move up to the mountains and watch everything you consume, and exercise daily. I suggest to anyone that if you have concerns about vaping is to first contact your physician and gather as much data as possible.

 

[Mr.Mann]

The cool thing about Jerry is he will gladly talk to you and assist you if you call him. He is a stand-up guy! I bought from him after a 45minute + long conversation. That was a first from a vendor who I hadn't even made a purchase from.

Great post Jerry!

 

[Smokalo]

Smokalo,

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think some people might be misinformed. I figure maybe I can shed a little bit of light on this topic since these issues have been mentioned several times before. If you want to discuss Nitrosamines then maybe we should discuss hamburgers and putting them on the grills this coming holiday weekend. Add the fact that your BBQ burgers might even include PAH (polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons) if you are ingesting smoked foods. PAH is also a result of burning tobacco which Eliquids don't have. While you are at it make sure you also avoid beer that is darker in color because that might be a indicator of Nitrosamines as well.

http://www.apocp.org/cancer_download/Volume11_No6/c 1713-17 11.23 Eduardo De Stefani.pdf

Avoiding Carcinogens to Reduce Cancer Risk | Medicine Web

If you want to mitigate the risks of cancer I suggest you quit vaping, move up to the mountains and watch everything you consume, and exercise daily. I suggest to anyone that if you have concerns about vaping is to first contact your physician and gather as much data as possible.

I agree that using WTA liquid is still a lot better than actually smoking, but I would rather just keep it simple with pure nicotine, which will not cause a physiological addiction when used by itself. I know that sometimes people don't take things into perspective; for instance, people will eat organic food to avoid some mildly harmful chemicals but aren't aware that the air they breath or the water they bathe in probably contains 10x worse chemicals than those they are trying to avoid in food. I fully appreciate the work you are doing but it's just not my kind of thing.

If you're interested, I made a long post discussing this topic in this thread:

www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/gen...n-does-more-nic-always-more-throat-hit-2.html

Good luck to you

 

[Mr.Mann]

I would rather just keep it simple with pure nicotine, which will not cause a physiological addiction when used by itself.

Hey, if there is no physiological addiction, why do you continue to use it. I don't know of too many people that would just vape nicotine for the throat hit. I mean, yes, zero nic liquid isn't as tasty, but if you are not craving nic, then why consume it?

Friendly game of tennis, Smokalo.

p.s. That was a good post in the link. Cheers

 

[Smokalo]

Hey, if there is no physiological addiction, why do you continue to use it. I don't know of too many people that would just vape nicotine for the throat hit. I mean, yes, zero nic liquid isn't as tasty, but if you are not craving nic, then why consume it?

Friendly game of tennis Smokalo.

p.s. That was a good response to my post in the link. Cheers

The physiological addiction actually changes the way your brain processes pleasure and can deprive you of the necessary amounts of dopamine you need to function on a daily basis if you take it too far although that doesn't seem the case from the experiences of most forum users. Psychological addictions can be harmful if abused, such as food addicts, gaming addicts, or other weird addictions people can develop, but those do not alter the way your brain processes pleasure but condition your mind to depend on something for pleasure. I still crave the nicotine, just like a crave a nice kona blend coffee in the morning, but if I leave the vaporizer at home, my pupils don't dilate nor do I get crazy ideas like jogging to a gas station 3 miles away for a pack of smokes, not that that's the case with WTA users, but by putting all the ingredients of tobacco together with nicotine, you eventually end up with something that very closely resembles tobacco, which is what I think is the case when people use the term "whole" tobacco alkaloids. A fun fact about nicotine is that it is classified as a stimulant, but acts as a relaxant when you use a lot at one time as there is a "bookkeeping" system on most presynaptic axons that keeps track of the amounts of nicotine in the synapse and when there is a large amount of nicotine present, it reverses the stimulatory effects of nicotine, which makes sense because you wouldn't want your brain on overdrive every time you ingested a larger than normal amount of nicotine (I love run-ons . Basically, I like to vape as means of relaxation now as opposed to the "I must have a smoke or I'll gnaw on the door knob" kind of thing in the past.Anyways, the lack of combustion, obviously, is a great improvement, healthwise, over tobacco smoke, but people can still have strong addictions to chewing tobacco, which also significantly raise the risks of cancer. There is too little information on WTA liquid and its effects on the body, but this would be the argument against it until some empirical evidence shows up. Good on ya

 

[Mr.Mann]

Uhh, I don't know what to say in response to that post. Okay, point goes to Smokalo...maybe? I guess, different vapes for different folks. However, consuming stimulants all day is no good for heart health, and I can't speak like you do on the subject, but I am sure you know this to be true. No? I don't have the empirical evidence, just anecdotal; but, I ain't never had no reverse stimulatory effect of nicotine from vaping!!!! Just restlessness and sleeplessness , but like I said, you do make a good argument for someone that hasn't tried WTA.

Is there empirical evidence that says vaping standard liquid is 100% harmless? It hasn't been around more than 9 years with maybe less than half of that related to our vaping world. Consumption is really high and I don't think empirical evidence can be truly tested with vaping's short presence. Maybe I am wrong, but isn't it all a slight gamble?

My anectdotal evidence of WTA: sleeping better, feeling better, spending less money, vaping less, charging batteries less, consuming less nicotine, and a more normal heart rate. And, I can say all that empirically.

 

[rothenbj]

I personally don't need empirical evidence to convince me that 4 or 5 portions of pasteurized snus a day and perhaps a ml of WTA liquid is even close to the 2 to 3 PAD habit I had before I started this journey. In fact, I'm pretty sure that combination is much better for me than the endless vaping I did between the 6 cigarettes I was having a day for the first six months of my journey.

I can go days now without even using my APV and not have that craving. I don't have the 20 or 30 years it will take the epidemiologists to start throwing numbers in their computers and give me statistical analysis. That being said, I have stopped using my fireplace and eating grilled foods, but more out of laziness than concern for my health.

 

[Stubby]

The physiological addiction actually changes the way your brain processes pleasure and can deprive you of the necessary amounts of dopamine you need to function on a daily basis if you take it too far although that doesn't seem the case from the experiences of most forum users. Psychological addictions can be harmful if abused, such as food addicts, gaming addicts, or other weird addictions people can develop, but those do not alter the way your brain processes pleasure but condition your mind to depend on something for pleasure. I still crave the nicotine, just like a crave a nice kona blend coffee in the morning, but if I leave the vaporizer at home, my pupils don't dilate nor do I get crazy ideas like jogging to a gas station 3 miles away for a pack of smokes, not that that's the case with WTA users, but by putting all the ingredients of tobacco together with nicotine, you eventually end up with something that very closely resembles tobacco, which is what I think is the case when people use the term "whole" tobacco alkaloids. A fun fact about nicotine is that it is classified as a stimulant, but acts as a relaxant when you use a lot at one time as there is a "bookkeeping" system on most presynaptic axons that keeps track of the amounts of nicotine in the synapse and when there is a large amount of nicotine present, it reverses the stimulatory effects of nicotine, which makes sense because you wouldn't want your brain on overdrive every time you ingested a larger than normal amount of nicotine (I love run-ons . Basically, I like to vape as means of relaxation now as opposed to the "I must have a smoke or I'll gnaw on the door knob" kind of thing in the past.Anyways, the lack of combustion, obviously, is a great improvement, healthwise, over tobacco smoke, but people can still have strong addictions to chewing tobacco, which also significantly raise the risks of cancer. There is too little information on WTA liquid and its effects on the body, but this would be the argument against it until some empirical evidence shows up. Good on ya

In general you seem to be implying that..... everyone is exactly the same.....and therefore should use nicotine just like you because....... well.... just because.....

besides that I do wish you would learn how to use paragraph breaks. It's very difficult trying to decode your......

You are wrong in many ways, but in particular that we don't know what the long term effect of WTA is. Snus has essentially the same balance of minor to major (nicotine) alkaloids that WTA e-liquid has. After several hundred years of use in Sweden, I think we have a pretty good idea of what is going on. First off, it's addictive.......... and.....well....... that's about it. Who knew.....

If you don't feel the need for WTA and you are satisfied with standard e-liquid, then carry on. I just don't quite see your point. Are you trying to tell us that no one should be using WTA...... because you didn't need it to quit smoking. Perhaps you are saying that those of us who where unable to quit smoking without snus or WTA should just....... donno....enlighten me please as I a bit lost as to what you feel we should be doing......

Perhaps as a few others have said...... we should just go back to smoking......

The point you are missing is that this is about harm reduction. Exchanging one addiction for another is just fine. WTA works for many when Straight nicotine doesn't simple because it is more like the balance we had when we where smoking. You seem to be implying that that is a bad thing.

I would very much disagree.

 

[Mr.Mann]

There is too little information on WTA liquid and its effects on the body, but this would be the argument against it until some empirical evidence shows up. Good on ya

Hey Smokalo, I didn't know you were a supplier of sorts, if in fact your website is real (?). I just saw your two youtube videos and a small store of sorts. Generally, I would like to know if I am talking to an ecig retailer of any kind, whether small or large, okay? Thanks

 

[rothenbj]

I agree with Mr M and there may be some form of requirement by ECF, but not sure on that. I'd hate to see you have an issue with them.

*couldn't resist researching-

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/255780-ecf-suppliers-terms-service.html

 

[Randyrtx]

I would argue (amicably) that we haven't really exchanged one addiction for another... we've simply changed the delivery method from harmful smoke to vapor.

I agree wholeheartedly with the original theme of this thread, that "WTA is the Future". Conventional nicotine-only e-liquid simply borrowed from a product that already existed, i.e. pharmaceutical nicotine for NRT. I think WTA is the evolution of that product into one that is more ideally suited to our use.

 

[CanuckVapour16]

I'll bring a complete noob POV to the pic here. I want to get completely off analogs for the sole reason that I don't want to die any sooner than need be. Chances are I've greatly shortened my life as it is by smoking for the past 25yrs.

WTA appears to be a solution to some but not all. Those who can do without the WTA's probably should imo as it's akin to putting bacon on a cheeseburger. It makes it better but really isn't necessary.

For those who require WTA (Do I? Don't I? Only I can find out via trial and error) it seems like a viable solution and I'd like to see vendors offering more of it to see if it can help more people.

As with all things about vaping, it appears that trial and error and personal preference will rule the day. By having the WTA's more accessible it would make that road easier to travel for everyone.

How am I going to get there? I'm going to keep with the nic only route for a bit and if that ultimately doesn't work I will attempt the WTA. Why not try the WTA first? Well for me being from Canada it can sometimes be a chore to get juice across the border (I've had one bad experience with it and don't want to wait 2 months to have it resolved again). Another thing is the less harmful things I'm ingesting the better imo. It goes back to the cheeseburger analogy again.

Just my $0.02

 

[rothenbj]

Canuck, that is a good approach. A number of people have found that nic wasn't really the reason they couldn't stop smoking. You can recognize them when they saw they dropped to zero nic soon after vaping. Their whole reason for continuing to smoke was the hasnd to mouth or having something in their hands. That ritual becomes quite addicting in itself, especially in a social setting or under the influence of other mind altering substances. It can give you a spacer between sips, so to speak.

It's all a personal journey with the same goal, getting off cigarettes for whatever reason a person decides to try.

 

[Stubby]

I would argue (amicably) that we haven't really exchanged one addiction for another... we've simply changed the delivery method from harmful smoke to vapor.

I agree wholeheartedly with the original theme of this thread, that "WTA is the Future". Conventional nicotine-only e-liquid simply borrowed from a product that already existed, i.e. pharmaceutical nicotine for NRT. I think WTA is the evolution of that product into one that is more ideally suited to our use.

Your right, my mistake on the wording of that one.

What is interesting is that the folks who are preaching a nicotine only approach are sounding eerily close to what we are hearing from the ANTZ. Why don't we just all do some safe and effective nicotine gum or patches, or perhaps some chantix. I'm sure in the morning everything will be just fine.

 

[simply me]

I was watching Dr. OZ the other day and it was about weight loss. He said we have to trade one addiction for a better addiction. Whether it is losing weight or smoking, a addiction is a addiction and vaping is a much better addiction and wta is better then smoking.

 

[Smokalo]

I don't mean to force opinions on anyone for any reason, that is just my

Snus has essentially the same balance of minor to major (nicotine) alkaloids that WTA e-liquid has.

Just to clarify, don't you mean that Snus has the same balance of minor to major tobacco alkaloids, right? Does Aroma liquids or whoever is supplying WTA liquid get the WTA from Snus or regular tobacco? Snus has a high rate of success of getting people to quit and is proven to contain less carcinogens and other harmful agents compared to snuff, but if I were trying to help someone quit, I would first advise them to try pure nicotine as opposed to something like Snus, not because I don't acknowledge that snus or WTA (if it does a similar WTA composition to Snus) is highly effective at getting people to quit or reduce their nicotine intake, but it would be a healthier option to using Snus or WTA liquid that contains a similar WTA composition to Snus (a first resort of sorts).

In general you seem to be implying that..... everyone is exactly the same.....and therefore should use nicotine just like you because....... well.... just because.....

I am not implying that everyone is the same, I was just explaining the way nicotine effects the brain and how adding WTA to nicotine exaggerates those effects.

I think many users think that I am slamming WTA liquid, which I am most definitely not, but the gist of my argument, without getting into any technicalities, would be that a pure nicotine E-liquid, at the same dose, is a healthier option than a WTA liquid. Obviously that is not the case as most WTA users are reporting reduced nicotine intake. If we are debating satisfaction and quality of vaping, than there is no room for argument as everyone has their preference. The debate atm is really, is it better to vape large amounts of pure nicotine or small amounts of nicotine with WTA?

But I don't want to get on anyone's nerves so it would be better if I just shut my mouth already