Almost impossible to say with any degree of confidence. The equilibrium point is determined by the airflow across the coil, how wet the coil is, the boiling point of the liquid, and the coil's surface area. This is complicated stuff, especially since the first two (airflow and wetness) can vary during the draw. However, coil mass or specific heat has no effect on it. Since there's no indirect way to measure the temperature of a Kanthal coil, I suppose the only way to be sure would be to put an actual temperature sensor on the coil (like Mike Petro did with a lot of coils a few years ago).
Your preferred wattage.
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Agree that it is impossible to determine any kind of equilibrium when air and fluid are introduced, unless complex measuring tools are used as you stated. But if we neglect the influence air and fluid has on a coil, we can calculate the power required to raise the temperature by x amount within y timeframe which involves both mass and Specific Heat Capacity of the metal used. Too much mass, too little power and we have a non functional vape. Takes too long for the coil to reach a needed temperature. Too little mass and too much power and we risk burning. The coil gets too hot within the timeframe of which we vape.
Outside of the 1-2 mech's I have I always TC vape so the wattage varies between 0-40W depending.
If we wish to ignore airflow and fluid, we can easily do that. Remove the wicking, make sure the coil is dry and fire it. Then observe how long it takes to begin to visibly glow. On my Kanthal coils, I would say this is between one and two seconds. Now consider that the equilibrium temperature of a wet coil with airflow on it is considerably less than the temperature at which it begins to glow.
I understand that. But adding fluid and air does not change the physics of the coil, just influences the outcome. It does add a cooling effect (for lack of better words), to which the temperature of the coil will plateau to an extent. Getting to that needed temperature to vaporize fluid requires power that is based on mass and the Specific Heat Capacity of the metal used.
Now increase the mass of your Kanthal coil, remove the wick and dry fire again. It will take longer to glow unless power is increased.
Absolutely, it will.
Now let's consider two coils of the same mass, with different surface area. The simplest example would be a single round-wire coil and a coil of the same ID and same number of wraps made of two parallel round wires three gauges smaller. Run them at the same power and under the same conditions. Guess which one remains cooler?
I started vaping long befor VW was the norm. I used VV, so I set up whatever it is I'm vaping between 3.8 and 4.2v. Sometimes (as it happens to my Intake now) I vape it at even higher wattages, but as a rule I run it between those V. Be safe!
Good example
A single 24awg vs dual parallel 27awg of the same number of wraps? The 24awg still comes out to be of higher mass but with lower surface area according to Steam. That said the 2 are very close and I suspect they would operate in a similar fashion within a respectable power setting. But also suspect the 24awg will be able to handle higher power due to its mass thus get hotter.
I gave an example of this a few posts back of different mass but similar surface area - the heat of the parallel build did not scale with power despite a similar surface area. If the surface area is the same, what is the determining factor? There will be a point of diminishing returns where the coil is too influenced by its environment. So is that influence due to mass or surface area?
These two coils have darn near the same mass and same resistance (within a percent or so).
The 24 AWG will take longer to heat up (and cool down again) due to the higher mass, but under steady state conditions, the dual parallel 27s will handle more power, due to its almost 50% greater surface area.
I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand.
These two coils have darn near the same mass and same resistance (within a percent or so).
The 24 AWG will take longer to heat up (and cool down again) due to the higher mass, but under steady state conditions, the dual parallel 27s will handle more power, due to its almost 50% greater surface area.
I'm not sure why this is difficult to understand.
I’m not sure why you would have to make such a comment. Trying to have a conversation where perhaps both or at least one of us can learn something. No need to be condescending. And if I am not understanding something, then perhaps it is due to how it is being explained.
Your question asked which would be cooler, not handle more power. I gave an answer stating they would be very similar within a respected power setting. Also gave an example of a lower mass not being able to handle power despite the same surface area which does not correlate with your example. If mass was not an influence, then the same surface area would dictate the same outcome. Minimal differences may not be noticed without additional measurement methods but vast differences in mass certainly is.
Apologies, I did not intend it to be "condescending". But way back in post #40 of this thread, you asked, "How does surface area determine the power requirement?" and I've been trying various ways to explain it ever since. I now officially give up.
Apologies, I did not intend it to be "condescending". But way back in post #40 of this thread, you asked, "How does surface area determine the power requirement?" and I've been trying various ways to explain it ever since. I now officially give up.
Fair enough and I appreciate your efforts – TBH I was enjoying the conversation. I understand what you are saying but it seems you are missing my point as well….at least that is my perception (please, no offence). Anyways….enough coil physics for this punk to handle on a Saturday night – time for a cocktail and a vape. Perhaps we’ll continue this conversation another time. Cheers
I usually vape at "it really doesn't matter" wattage.
Re last sentence, the ideal mass is zero, except that it would penalize you immediately if something went wrong. And there are people that use the mass so holding fire at first acts kind of a power control, though. If they went to zero mass they might not be able to use a much real, effective power due to not being able to reduce its effect at will, and definitely would have to reduce the number on their display.
My vape is based around equilibrium, hitting well within a fraction of a second, maybe taking a full second to reach maximum, and after that only getting hotter if juice runs out or the entire atomizer gets hotter. It has to be because I chain vape with drags up to 10 seconds with a puffing action with little pauses in the draw. Anything that can't handle that is destroyed.
As to TC, I find it very important to set the power correctly on my Pico, too high results in a reduced vape as it bounces off of the limit. 16-16.5 W 380 deg. F unless having contact/quantization issues that require bumping it up. My power mode setting is 14.5 W.
Not sure I understand your first paragraph. The application requires a coil that must have mass tied to it so zero mass is not a reality.
As for your vape not getting hotter until juice starts to run dry – this tells me you use a low mass coil that is more influenced by it’s environment. Increase that mass which will require a change in power and your equilibrium will get hotter.
I’m vaping a high(ish) mass coil right now. Power is set to mitigate ramp up so that the coil can reach a needed temperature to vaporize the juice within the short duration of my draw. However, the longer I keep my finger on the fire button, the hotter the vape gets. More power is required to reach the temperature due to its mass, but also due to it’s mass the coil retains more heat than its environment can dissipate. Reduce the power, more time is now required but this does not change the heat retention. I understand the connection between surface area and the influence air and juice has on it. But mass is still a major contributor.
Perhaps not a direct correlation but given I am listening to music I am going to use it. Heat Sinks for amplifiers are of low mass so their surface area that is exposed can be more influenced by air. If they were of higher mass, and the same thermal power applied, air on the exposed surface area would not have as much influence and the amplifier will eventually overheat. So we have a connection between mass and the influence it’s environment has on it despite the same surface area.
Depends on the recipe, but between 10 and 11.5. Since I use the same mod and topper, things are pretty consistent.
I'm home. Maybe I will move tomorrow, maybe not.
I'm home. Maybe I will move tomorrow, maybe not.
Between 10 and 15.
Sometimes a little more heat allows nuances to show better in a wick that has been going a while but 11 is my sweet spot.
Sometimes a little more heat allows nuances to show better in a wick that has been going a while but 11 is my sweet spot.
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