Diketone free with lab results. There are some great reviews of this juice as well, especially their custard.
Safetys On ... - Generals Juices
Safetys On ... - Generals Juices
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Diketones-free vendors
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DISCLAIMER: I am not affiliated with ECTA in any way other than as a consumer.
Racehorse brought my attention to this thread and I did see she mentioned ECTA in one post, but I think its worth looking a little closer at how their member program works.
Have a look here Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada
To me, this is one of the better programs vendors can be a part of. The program requires testing submissions every 6 months and provides customers and vendors with some very specific disclosure and remediation paths.
One of the best vendor sites for disclosure and transparency I've come across is Flavour Crafters Premium Eliquids which is their main disclosure page and you can go here to look at a batch analysis, which includes certificates and advice structure of almost their entire product line: Flavour Crafters Premium Eliquids This is based on their participation in the ECTA process.
To me this is the sort of program juice makers should be buying into. Third-party testing with public disclosure, advice and remediation when set limits are considered out of bounds. The rationale for the limits is explained in the ECTA page I linked to first. Its not bulletproof by any means, but it is a significant step forward compared to no disclosure or remediation.
I buy from this vendor almost exclusively now because of this. As consumers if we truly care about diketones, we should be encouraging our favorite makers to consider joining this program or participate in one like it - whatever suits their particular business processes or affiliations.
My opinion on Testing
One problem with testing is it involves testing base liquids and not the vapor emitted. This is problematic as the vaporization process, ie wick, power level, mouth vs lung inhale, fire time etc, are highly variable so even if there was a protocol developed for this, it would be hard to say how applicable it is in your own particular circumstances. After all "normal" is only a statistical notion involving means, standard deviation and averages.
That being said when compared to traditional combustion cigarettes, the nasty stuff is orders of magnitude lower in the base liquid - I suspect that in some cases like Diacetyl, Formaldehyde, Acetoin, and Pentanedione could be considerably less in the actual vapor, making the liquid only a baseline and not the actual amount delivered. We await more studies, particularly from Dr. F. on this. Perhaps he will have advice after this next study on how to convert base readings to potential vapor levels of these components. In the end, zero exposure is always the preferred type of exposure, but at least information like this lets the consumer make a rational health and risk choice. When compared to the history of tobacco products, this kind attention to public health is unprecedented and I think the ANTZ miss that point, or obscure it to purposely avoid giving any credit to the vaper movement.
Racehorse brought my attention to this thread and I did see she mentioned ECTA in one post, but I think its worth looking a little closer at how their member program works.
Have a look here Electronic Cigarette Trade Association (ECTA) of Canada
To me, this is one of the better programs vendors can be a part of. The program requires testing submissions every 6 months and provides customers and vendors with some very specific disclosure and remediation paths.
One of the best vendor sites for disclosure and transparency I've come across is Flavour Crafters Premium Eliquids which is their main disclosure page and you can go here to look at a batch analysis, which includes certificates and advice structure of almost their entire product line: Flavour Crafters Premium Eliquids This is based on their participation in the ECTA process.
To me this is the sort of program juice makers should be buying into. Third-party testing with public disclosure, advice and remediation when set limits are considered out of bounds. The rationale for the limits is explained in the ECTA page I linked to first. Its not bulletproof by any means, but it is a significant step forward compared to no disclosure or remediation.
I buy from this vendor almost exclusively now because of this. As consumers if we truly care about diketones, we should be encouraging our favorite makers to consider joining this program or participate in one like it - whatever suits their particular business processes or affiliations.
My opinion on Testing
One problem with testing is it involves testing base liquids and not the vapor emitted. This is problematic as the vaporization process, ie wick, power level, mouth vs lung inhale, fire time etc, are highly variable so even if there was a protocol developed for this, it would be hard to say how applicable it is in your own particular circumstances. After all "normal" is only a statistical notion involving means, standard deviation and averages.
That being said when compared to traditional combustion cigarettes, the nasty stuff is orders of magnitude lower in the base liquid - I suspect that in some cases like Diacetyl, Formaldehyde, Acetoin, and Pentanedione could be considerably less in the actual vapor, making the liquid only a baseline and not the actual amount delivered. We await more studies, particularly from Dr. F. on this. Perhaps he will have advice after this next study on how to convert base readings to potential vapor levels of these components. In the end, zero exposure is always the preferred type of exposure, but at least information like this lets the consumer make a rational health and risk choice. When compared to the history of tobacco products, this kind attention to public health is unprecedented and I think the ANTZ miss that point, or obscure it to purposely avoid giving any credit to the vaper movement.
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Firecrow,
Thank you for posting your thoughts and esp. about Flavour Crafters. "We" all noticed that according the the FB page of diacetyl free vendors, Canada is way ahead of the game. There are twice as many vendors there who provide test results on the list. And Flavour Crafters has been a member since 2011! That means they were very ahead of the game in that respect as well.
Vaping is indeed, as you say, harm reduction, not harm free, and certainly head and shoulders "better" than smoking. And of course, the ANTZ miss the point, mostly because they want to miss it.
However, vapers who are attracted to the concept of avoidable risk, i.e., risks that have been pointed out by *vape friendly* chemists, toxicologists, and Dr. Farsalinos, as avoidable, will be seeking out diketone-free vendors. There will always be a group of consumers to whom this is important.
There are also people vaping unflavored, as well as low flavoring, to that end.
Everyone should be able to do what they want to do, but certainly, *disclosure* by the flavor manufacturers and the eliquid mixers, as well as studies done by people like Dr. F., and as much transparency in general, enables the consumer to better make those choices for themselves.
Thanks for adding to the list!
Thank you for posting your thoughts and esp. about Flavour Crafters. "We" all noticed that according the the FB page of diacetyl free vendors, Canada is way ahead of the game. There are twice as many vendors there who provide test results on the list. And Flavour Crafters has been a member since 2011! That means they were very ahead of the game in that respect as well.
Vaping is indeed, as you say, harm reduction, not harm free, and certainly head and shoulders "better" than smoking. And of course, the ANTZ miss the point, mostly because they want to miss it.
However, vapers who are attracted to the concept of avoidable risk, i.e., risks that have been pointed out by *vape friendly* chemists, toxicologists, and Dr. Farsalinos, as avoidable, will be seeking out diketone-free vendors. There will always be a group of consumers to whom this is important.
There are also people vaping unflavored, as well as low flavoring, to that end.
Everyone should be able to do what they want to do, but certainly, *disclosure* by the flavor manufacturers and the eliquid mixers, as well as studies done by people like Dr. F., and as much transparency in general, enables the consumer to better make those choices for themselves.
Thanks for adding to the list!
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Those values could very well be considerably less once emitted from the vaping device as vapor.
However, there is also some evidence of "deep lung" vapers, i.e. they are inhaling deeper into lungs than they did with cigarettes, and that the values for those types of vapers may be higher or more damaging to lung tissue.
Until that is known, however, I personally have to consider that both B.O., and COPD are irreversible lung diseases. Once I quit smoking I felt that I wanted to be "kinder" to my lungs than I was before.
(Just for clarification in this topic, *Pentanedione* is *Acetyl Proprianyl*. )
NicVape (a founding member of AESMA) posted that an Independent Toxicologist also concluded that "diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione should not be considered as candidates for flavoring in the e-cig/vaporizer solution" NicVape is a vapor company, not ANTZ, so I give that statement some credibility.
The diacetyl and acetyl propionyl Issue
By the way, and there is never a way to know this by usernames, but RACEHORSE is a FILLY.
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Those values could very well be considerably less once emitted from the vaping device as vapor.
However, there is also some evidence of "deep lung" vapers, i.e. they are inhaling deeper into lungs than they did with cigarettes, and that the values for those types of vapers may be higher or more damaging to lung tissue.
Until that is known, however, I personally have to consider that both B.O., and COPD are irreversible lung diseases. Once I quit smoking I felt that I wanted to be "kinder" to my lungs than I was before.
(Just for clarification in this topic, *Pentanedione* is *Acetyl Proprianyl*. )
NicVape (a founding member of AESMA) posted that an Independent Toxicologist also concluded that "diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione should not be considered as candidates for flavoring in the e-cig/vaporizer solution" NicVape is a vapor company, not ANTZ, so I give that statement some credibility.
The diacetyl and acetyl propionyl Issue
By the way, and there is never a way to know this by usernames, but RACEHORSE is a FILLY.
Thats good info!
OSHA's proposed levels are in the parts-per-billion based on the case of popcorn lung some years back before they withdrew any recommendations. There was much controversy over the science and lab tests done on mice and their transferability to humans, but all agreed, it is dangerous but they can't seem to establish safe levels - I am sure food industry lobbying didn't help (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/25/washington/25osha.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0) . There are so many proposals and studies I don't know what to think other than its all BAD.
There really is no good information on an acceptable level of these substances. Unfortunately my favourite has some trace amounts of both in it. I'm hoping they are able to eliminate them.
P.S. Oh, good to know, I just assumed... my bad. HER.
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This is a good read if it isn't already posted here, but apparently Dr. F. quotes NIOSH set levels for DA and AP and discusses it in the context of a letter sent from NIOSH to Dr. F's organization. Key in Dr. F's response is the follow:
In our response, we used the NIOSH arguments to further support the appropriateness of our approach. In particular, we mentioned that the targeted population for e-cigarette use is the smoking population. Whether sensitive or not, these people are exposed to a large number of toxicants on a daily basis for many years. Additionally, we emphasized that a risk level of 1 in 1000 developing lung dysfunction represents a tremendous benefit for smokers who have a 1 in 3-4 risk of developing chronic obstructive lung disease in their lifetime. Additionally, we provided further evidence from the literature on the levels of diacetyl in tobacco cigarette smoke. Studies by Fujioka and Shibamoto and by Moree-Testa and Saint-Jalm found diacetyl in smoke at levels similar to the study by Pierce et al. Finally, we accepted the argument by NIOSH that we underestimated the ventilation rate of workers. That was a conscious decision, because we wanted to use the most stringent criteria in the comparison. Thus, we used the worst-case scenario of resting ventilation rate, which underestimated the safety-limit exposure set by NIOSH. Based on mild and moderate activity, the NIOSH-estimated safety exposure limit would be 86micrograms/day (mild activity) and 302micrograms/day (moderate activity) for diacetyl, and 132micrograms/day (mild activity) and 638micrograms/day (moderate activity) for acetyl propionyl. Our initial calculations considering resting ventilation rate was 65micrograms/day for diacetyl and 137micrograms/day for acetyl propionyl. Thus, the NIOSH-set limits are approximately 50-400% higher than what we considered in our original study, using the worst case scenario.
NIOSH submits letter to the editor concerning our diacetyl study
So it appears there are some NIOSH based exposure levels out there. I am not sure what the relationship is to liquid content to vaped content of DA and and AP, but I would have to assume there is some loss in the vaporization process as well.
Ie: with my juice it has 2.14 µg/ml per 1ml of juice. I vape around 4-6ml a day, which means my maximum potential exposure is 12.84 µg per day. If I read this right, 86 µg is the NIOSH estimated safe exposure limit at its lowest, which is well under it by several factors and they (NIOSH) admit their levels tend to the safe side. So while I am alarmed its in my juice, its at very low levels and the manufacturer has committed to removing it.
I find it ironic that I stopped using microwave popcorn after the reports of popcorn lung given what I vape. Not necessarily a "funny" ironic either.
In our response, we used the NIOSH arguments to further support the appropriateness of our approach. In particular, we mentioned that the targeted population for e-cigarette use is the smoking population. Whether sensitive or not, these people are exposed to a large number of toxicants on a daily basis for many years. Additionally, we emphasized that a risk level of 1 in 1000 developing lung dysfunction represents a tremendous benefit for smokers who have a 1 in 3-4 risk of developing chronic obstructive lung disease in their lifetime. Additionally, we provided further evidence from the literature on the levels of diacetyl in tobacco cigarette smoke. Studies by Fujioka and Shibamoto and by Moree-Testa and Saint-Jalm found diacetyl in smoke at levels similar to the study by Pierce et al. Finally, we accepted the argument by NIOSH that we underestimated the ventilation rate of workers. That was a conscious decision, because we wanted to use the most stringent criteria in the comparison. Thus, we used the worst-case scenario of resting ventilation rate, which underestimated the safety-limit exposure set by NIOSH. Based on mild and moderate activity, the NIOSH-estimated safety exposure limit would be 86micrograms/day (mild activity) and 302micrograms/day (moderate activity) for diacetyl, and 132micrograms/day (mild activity) and 638micrograms/day (moderate activity) for acetyl propionyl. Our initial calculations considering resting ventilation rate was 65micrograms/day for diacetyl and 137micrograms/day for acetyl propionyl. Thus, the NIOSH-set limits are approximately 50-400% higher than what we considered in our original study, using the worst case scenario.
NIOSH submits letter to the editor concerning our diacetyl study
So it appears there are some NIOSH based exposure levels out there. I am not sure what the relationship is to liquid content to vaped content of DA and and AP, but I would have to assume there is some loss in the vaporization process as well.
Ie: with my juice it has 2.14 µg/ml per 1ml of juice. I vape around 4-6ml a day, which means my maximum potential exposure is 12.84 µg per day. If I read this right, 86 µg is the NIOSH estimated safe exposure limit at its lowest, which is well under it by several factors and they (NIOSH) admit their levels tend to the safe side. So while I am alarmed its in my juice, its at very low levels and the manufacturer has committed to removing it.
I find it ironic that I stopped using microwave popcorn after the reports of popcorn lung given what I vape. Not necessarily a "funny" ironic either.
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I was reading on the "Best gourmet e-juice" thread and ended up checking out Steam Juice's website.
I don't see any certification info, but on the "What's in it?" link, Under "Contact", it says no diacetyl in their juice.
What's In It?
Anyone used their stuff?
I don't see any certification info, but on the "What's in it?" link, Under "Contact", it says no diacetyl in their juice.
What's In It?
Anyone used their stuff?
That's a little terminological legerdemain
Diketones: diacetyl and acetyl proprionyl. Acetoin can convert to diacetyl when heated.
Just about every vendor says "diacetyl-free." Doesn't mean they're diketone free.
Diketones: diacetyl and acetyl proprionyl. Acetoin can convert to diacetyl when heated.
Just about every vendor says "diacetyl-free." Doesn't mean they're diketone free.
I have not tried Steam Juice. I got the JuiceMafia juice in. I bought two of the specials for 50ml bottles, and one smaller one. I tried the smaller one today. It was the Baller Blend. I like it. I also bought Peach Tobacco and the Turkish Tobacco. I have not tried those two yet.
Got my order from Juice Mafia. I got Strawberry Vanilla Sugar and Strappleberry. Both with an extra flavor shot. Tried them both and they were ok but according to the dates on the bottle they are only four days old. They're going to the steep box for a week or two. I'm thinking they will turn out pretty nice. And somehow i'll feel better about vaping them. Thanks again gang!
Edit: BTW - they are still running the two 50ml for $25 special. Really hard to resist
Edit: BTW - they are still running the two 50ml for $25 special. Really hard to resist
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I got the chocolate coconut and the clove, normal strength and 6mg. I'm enjoying them both. (Juicemafia)
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I ordered 3x50ml from Juice Mafia and have been loving their stuff!!!
Got Vanilla Lemon Swirl, Berry Crunch, and Banana Nut Bread. All maxvg +extra flavor.
Got Vanilla Lemon Swirl, Berry Crunch, and Banana Nut Bread. All maxvg +extra flavor.
Got my order from Juice Mafia. I got Strawberry Vanilla Sugar and Strappleberry. Both with an extra flavor shot. Tried them both and they were ok but according to the dates on the bottle they are only four days old. They're going to the steep box for a week or two. I'm thinking they will turn out pretty nice. And somehow i'll feel better about vaping them. Thanks again gang!
Edit: BTW - they are still running the two 50ml for $25 special. Really hard to resist
Left them sit for another week and they are both really nice. The strawberry vanilla sugar may have the edge for me but they will both definitely be in my rotation. Next will be the vanilla custard. Thanks again to the whole gang for putting in the time and effort to pull all this together.
From Juice Mafia...I bought 3. I have tried the 3rd juice tonight. Baller Blend was a small sample. I tried it, and liked it. The 50 ml specials I got were Peach Tobacco, and Turkish Tobacco.
I do not think the 50mls have aged long enough, to give a definitive answer. The Peach Tobacco I liked, but it was much different than the HHV Peach Tobacco. Tonight I saved what I thought
would be best, the Turkish Tobacco. I can't tell it is Turkish Tobacco at this point, which is strange. Before I had Halo Turkish Tobacco, and loved it. I also bought Yaeliq Turkish Tobacco, and really liked it. Tonight as I said, the Turkish Tobacco from Juice Mafia did not impress me at all. Now I think that is most likely the fact it is only just turning 3 weeks old. I should know more in 1-3 more weeks. The three flavors all had a familiar type base, unlike any I've ever had thus far. If you like the base, you will probably like juice from this company. To me the base is overpowering the Turkish taste. I hope in time after it has aged, that the Turkish tobacco taste comes through.
I do not think the 50mls have aged long enough, to give a definitive answer. The Peach Tobacco I liked, but it was much different than the HHV Peach Tobacco. Tonight I saved what I thought
would be best, the Turkish Tobacco. I can't tell it is Turkish Tobacco at this point, which is strange. Before I had Halo Turkish Tobacco, and loved it. I also bought Yaeliq Turkish Tobacco, and really liked it. Tonight as I said, the Turkish Tobacco from Juice Mafia did not impress me at all. Now I think that is most likely the fact it is only just turning 3 weeks old. I should know more in 1-3 more weeks. The three flavors all had a familiar type base, unlike any I've ever had thus far. If you like the base, you will probably like juice from this company. To me the base is overpowering the Turkish taste. I hope in time after it has aged, that the Turkish tobacco taste comes through.
I have an order from Mountain Oak Vapors on the way. I will report back after I get a chance to try them.
Vapemail!! (Juicemafia)
Today I got 50ml 6mg Paison Punch, 50ml 6mg Mandarin Cream and 10ml 6mg Canella. All stock configurations (no extra shots, 50/50 on the big 'uns 60pg/40vg on the others. On call today and being worked to death, but mini review some day soon...
I hope the special holds out until I get to try all their stuff...
Today I got 50ml 6mg Paison Punch, 50ml 6mg Mandarin Cream and 10ml 6mg Canella. All stock configurations (no extra shots, 50/50 on the big 'uns 60pg/40vg on the others. On call today and being worked to death, but mini review some day soon...
I hope the special holds out until I get to try all their stuff...
I'm very happy to have vendor discussions in this thread. I have some contributions I'd be very willing to make, but how does this thread want to operate? I could add some reviews of The Vapor Bar and Mountain Oak and Juice Mafia.
But is this the place? I'd love this thread to be a resource and maybe make new threads, or add to existing threads to discuss the finer points?
I know I'd chime in on a dedicated Juice Mafia Thread.
But is this the place? I'd love this thread to be a resource and maybe make new threads, or add to existing threads to discuss the finer points?
I know I'd chime in on a dedicated Juice Mafia Thread.
I can't speak for everyone, or anyone other than myself, but I would love if you would add some reviews. My opinion is that, as long as its diketone free, post away, the more info on liquids, the better.
Thanks to this thread I ordered from Juice Mafia: Peach Tobacco & Arctic Ice 50 ml 6 mg, 2 sample packs banana nut bread, blueberry dream, peppermint twist, strappleberry, strawberry peach freeze, rum runner tobacco all with flavor shot 9 mg. FOOB the peach tobacco isn't bad especially with some Ice mixed. The rum runner, I don't know what I was thinking. It honestly reminds me of Halo Voodoo Juice and that's not a good thing. Maybe it'll mellow.the others I just sampled and they're promising, letting them steep a bit.
Next I'm ordering from MOV Capone, omertà, menthol berry blast, and the one I'm most excited about Blue Ridge. Sticking with those that have been tested. Thanks again for this list!
Next I'm ordering from MOV Capone, omertà, menthol berry blast, and the one I'm most excited about Blue Ridge. Sticking with those that have been tested. Thanks again for this list!
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