Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[Mazinny]

This from cloud9 on a U.K. vaping forum :

Neither five pawns or their distributor would make any statement in writing. They did want to discuss the results by phone, but we felt it was essential to keep a clear record of all comms in writing and so the return happened, and we didn't hear any more from either party about these results.

And here's the link to the forum thread ( in which cloud9 is responding to questions and comments ) in case anyone wants to hear what they ( cloud9 ) claim their motivation was :

5 Pawns delisted by Cloud 9 after tests show record levels of Diacetyl

 

[Sirius]

My question is who exactly is airing all these issues and making a mountain out of them? The non-vapers?

There's not one week without some furious activity on the diacetyl, "think of the children" or similar battle grounds here.

No...Only us..the vapers and this is a well deserved debate. We spend our dollars on eliquids from these suppliers and I for one,.feel that we deserve to know what's in the juice we are vaping..It's far to easy to deceive in this industry unless you have vendors that are willing to test their own juice that they are claiming is top quality for their customers..It's suppose to all be about harm reduction anyway.

I wouldn't expect an attitude like that unless I was in one of those cloud chaser Facebook groups. Making a mountain of of some issues is exactly what need's to be done..Better us than the FDA imo.

 

[Sirius]

This from cloud9 on a U.K. vaping forum :

Neither Five Pawns or their distributor would make any statement in writing. They did want to discuss the results by phone, but we felt it was essential to keep a clear record of all comms in writing and so the return happened, and we didn't hear any more from either party about these results.

And here's the link to the forum thread ( in which cloud9 is responding to questions and comments ) in case anyone wants to hear what they ( cloud9 ) claim their motivation was :

5 Pawns delisted by Cloud 9 after tests show record levels of Diacetyl

Yes I do and tyvm..I was just getting into Five Pawns and found three I really liked..Lucena,..Grandmaster,...and Perpetual Check..All of those were removed from my blog since learning of this issue.

 

[Sirius]

@Mazinny ... Got to love the British humor..I'm lmao right now.

 

[Rossum]

That being said,..who would be willing to publish a test with diacetyl free results and then on retesting,..have that same juice come back with trace ammounts?!? It would seem to many to be dishonest and it would be no fault of theirs as they buy these flavorings by the gallons.

The controversy here isn't about "trace amounts".

 

[Sirius]

The controversy here isn't about "trace amounts".

Yes I know..I'll add what Cloud9 posted and it wasn't good at all:

Cloud9Vaping said:

We sent the results to Dr F the day we received them, he as extremely shocked, and indicated that they would be high, even if they were concentrated flavourings - from results we've seen, they are higher than any other well known or released tests.

I am sure he won't mind me quoting what he said to me on skype:
"and you should consider ways to inform the public. The numbers are HUGE, especially for AP!!!! we are talking about mg/ml!!!!!"
5 Pawns delisted by Cloud 9 after tests show record levels of Diacetyl

 

[DC2]

If Cloud 9 sends me the lab certificates, I will let everyone know their response.

So Cloud 9 sent me the test results for the Five Pawns liquids.
And unfortunately, there is a problem.

The samples were submitted with "code names" for the product being submitted.
They sent me a bunch of files, and the file name was the name of the liquid that yielded the given test results.

According to Nude Nicotine's latest newsletter they are offering the use of their own testing services. The details should be on their website, I haven't checked it out. It sounded like it was aimed at other vendors and it didn't mention price, but it might be worth a look.

They have an option ($175) for doing a "Mini Profile" test.
That would be a "Nicotine + Diketones" test.

I'm giving some consideration to submitting my Halo Tribeca to this test.

I would probably want to do a Five Pawns test as well.
But now we're starting to get very expensive.

 

[Rossum]

So Cloud 9 sent me the test results for the Five Pawns liquids.

So how much was the nicotine off? "Outside acceptable tolerances" isn't much to go on.

 

[DC2]

So how much was the nicotine off? "Outside acceptable tolerances" isn't much to go on.

If you want to PM me your email address, I'll forward the email to you...

 

[skoony]

No...Only us..the vapers and this is a well deserved debate. We spend our dollars on eliquids from these suppliers and I for one,.feel that we deserve to know what's in the juice we are vaping..It's far to easy to deceive in this industry unless you have vendors that are willing to test their own juice that they are claiming is top quality for their customers..It's suppose to all be about harm reduction anyway.

I wouldn't expect an attitude like that unless I was in one of those cloud chaser Facebook groups. Making a mountain of of some issues is exactly what need's to be done..Better us than the FDA imo.

why must we always assume the negative. whats meant by its far to easy to deceive?
whom prey tell is deceiving us and why? it doesn't make sense. do you think there
is actually any one out there whipping together any old combination of chemicals
they found at a recycling center and selling it as e-juice? even if there was one
would not they be just a common criminal committing larceny,reckless endangerment,
and any other law concerning putting your fellow citizen in harms way?
take a little time and study how our craft works. learn about the basic
ingredients in the juice and why they are used. learn the manufacturing
process of how to make e-juice. its so incredibly easy and safe it would make
your head spin. 4 or 5 ingredients measured to a correct portion. put them
all into a container and stir.that's it. the only critical element is using
a little caution getting the nic strength right. other than that the worst
that can possibly happen is to get a bad tasting batch of juice.that's a
real killer.roll out the sterile computer operated labs.
ask any one who was a heavy smoker for 30 years or more if their
health has improved. i am willing to bet 99 out of 100 will answer
yes. the 1 is probably a crotchety old curmudgeon like me.
yet here we are ignoring the good and nit picking every little
possible and statistically meaningless problem that in all likelihood
will never occur.
when you look at the total picture it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
the wicks. the metal in the coils. the flavorings in the juice.
the nicotine in the juice. all tempests in a teapot.
all in a base namely PG that has been known to be safe to inhale since
the 50's.VG has been the second choice in medicines for the tiny fraction
of persons allergic to PG and is thought to be just as safe.
from the gear to the juice its all pretty good.
unsafe use is unsafe use. that can't be regulated nor do
i believe it should be. if a company is using GRAS ingredients
and there is no reason they shouldn't be,there is no reason
for any regulations at all.
its all about the money. not the money Big Government,BT
and BP are losing now. its the money to be made by taking
over the industry and the profits it will generate and to have
control over that money. with hardware so simplistic and
juice so cheap to make there will be plenty of it to go
around. it just wont be the people that built this industry
that are going to get it.

regards
mike

 

[Rossum]

its so incredibly easy and safe it would make your head spin. 4 or 5 ingredients measured to a correct portion. put them
all into a container and stir.that's it.

I prefer my liquids shaken, not stirred!

 

[skoony]

I prefer my liquids shaken, not stirred!

some one else preferred them that way too.
i' thinking it was some one i taught a long time ago.

mike

 

[LouisLeBeau]

why must we always assume the negative. whats meant by its far to easy to deceive?
whom prey tell is deceiving us and why? it doesn't make sense. do you think there
is actually any one out there whipping together any old combination of chemicals
they found at a recycling center and selling it as e-juice? even if there was one
would not they be just a common criminal committing larceny,reckless endangerment,
and any other law concerning putting your fellow citizen in harms way?
take a little time and study how our craft works. learn about the basic
ingredients in the juice and why they are used. learn the manufacturing
process of how to make e-juice. its so incredibly easy and safe it would make
your head spin. 4 or 5 ingredients measured to a correct portion. put them
all into a container and stir.that's it. the only critical element is using
a little caution getting the nic strength right. other than that the worst
that can possibly happen is to get a bad tasting batch of juice.that's a
real killer.roll out the sterile computer operated labs.
ask any one who was a heavy smoker for 30 years or more if their
health has improved. i am willing to bet 99 out of 100 will answer
yes. the 1 is probably a crotchety old curmudgeon like me.
yet here we are ignoring the good and nit picking every little
possible and statistically meaningless problem that in all likelihood
will never occur.
when you look at the total picture it doesn't amount to a hill of beans.
the wicks. the metal in the coils. the flavorings in the juice.
the nicotine in the juice. all tempests in a teapot.
all in a base namely PG that has been known to be safe to inhale since
the 50's.VG has been the second choice in medicines for the tiny fraction
of persons allergic to PG and is thought to be just as safe.
from the gear to the juice its all pretty good.
unsafe use is unsafe use. that can't be regulated nor do
i believe it should be. if a company is using GRAS ingredients
and there is no reason they shouldn't be,there is no reason
for any regulations at all.
its all about the money. not the money Big Government,BT
and BP are losing now. its the money to be made by taking
over the industry and the profits it will generate and to have
control over that money. with hardware so simplistic and
juice so cheap to make there will be plenty of it to go
around. it just wont be the people that built this industry
that are going to get it.

regards
mike

We are all quite comfortable with YOU deciding what is safe for YOU.

 

[skoony]

We are all quite comfortable with YOU deciding what is safe for YOU.

I am quite comfortable with every one doing it for
themselves not doing it for other people.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

I am quite comfortable with every one doing it for
themselves not doing it for other people.
regards
mike

Are you Comfortable with a Company selling e-Liquids that have High Levels of AP and or DA? And when Customers contact them, they say their e-Liquids do Not Contain AP or DA?

Not saying that any Company is Doing this. Just a Hypothetical Question.

 

[Rossum]

If you want to PM me your email address, I'll forward the email to you...

Got 'em, thanks!

The nicotine test results were between 0.18 and 0.37 "% by weight", which works out to something like 2 to 4 mg/ml. I'm guessing these samples were supposedly 3mg/ml (unless I'm blind, it doesn't say anywhere). If we look at this as being an accuracy of +/- 50%, it does seem rather poor. If we look at it as +/- 1 mg/ml, it's certainly not dangerous.

There's another interesting discrepancy as well. Five Pawns claims "All of our blends result in a 50% VG / 50% PG combination", yet the test results show them all being between 80/20 and 70/30 (PG/VG).

 

[Rossum]

Are you Comfortable with a Company selling e-Liquids that have High Levels of AP and or DA? And when Customers contact them, they say their e-Liquids do Not Contain AP or DA?

Not saying that any Company is Doing this. Just a Hypothetical Question.

No. That's called "fraud" or "misrepresentation". We already have laws against that.

 

[zoiDman]

No. That's called "fraud" or "misrepresentation". We already have laws against that.

OK... No argument here.

So a Separate Issue would be if a Retailer/OEM made No Claim about what Is or Isn't in their e-Liquids?

 

[Lessifer]

OK... No argument here.

So a Separate Issue would be if a Retailer/OEM made No Claim about what Is or Isn't in their e-Liquids?

Then if that is something that concerns you, you inquire, or you don't buy from them.

I don't have a peanut allergy, I don't ask if McDonald's uses any peanut oil in their food. If I did, I probably would ask.

 

[AndriaD]

Got 'em, thanks!

The nicotine test results were between 0.18 and 0.37 "% by weight", which works out to something like 2 to 4 mg/ml. I'm guessing these samples were supposedly 3mg/ml (unless I'm blind, it doesn't say anywhere). If we look at this as being an accuracy of +/- 50%, it does seem rather poor. If we look at it as +/- 1 mg/ml, it's certainly not dangerous.

There's another interesting discrepancy as well. Five Pawns claims "All of our blends result in a 50% VG / 50% PG combination", yet the test results show them all being between 80/20 and 70/30 (PG/VG).

My guess, on the PG/VG, is they start with a base that's 50/50... but then they add 20%-30% flavoring, which are almost all in PG. and it seems to be in the flavoring area that they most fall down, so it seems logical -- they don't really know WHAT they're putting in that 50/50 base!

Andria