Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[nicnik]

Regarding nicotine strength, what was the variation- was it labelled 18 and was really 36 or was it labelled 18 and was really 3.

who cares?

One would be frustrating, the other potentially dangerous.

 

[BigEgo]

If Cloud 9 sends me the lab certificates, I will let everyone know their response.

And if it's true, Queenside, Grandmaster, and Castle Long will be dropped from my rotation.
Which doesn't leave me with much to choose from.

I think I'm going to get Halo Tribeca tested myself.
It's the longest standing liquid in my rotation and the only one I could vape all day if I had to.

Anyone know how to go about that?

I can tell you how to make a Tribeca DIY clone if the time ever comes where you want to go that route (it's a 2 ingredient recipe). All you need is TFA's RY4 Double and you're 90% there.

Also, in regard to the Cloud 9 test results, five pawns should be ashamed of themselves. Some of their liquids contain over 2000 ppm AP which makes these liquids the highest ever tested by anyone.

One good thing about these results is they weren't done by Enthalpy labs. I have seen some juice vendors claim they don't trust Enthalpy because of their association with AEMSA. In their opinion, AEMSA is an extortion racket. Well, now we have C9 in the UK showing similar test results (from a different lab). So, is it fair to say this "racket" is an international conspiracy?

 

[Racehorse]

One would be frustrating, the other potentially dangerous.

yes, that was my point when I said who cares....because it was splitting hairs. That it didn't matter if it was 3mg off or 10mg off......according to cloud 9, they were outside the limits allowed to be "off" on their nicotine levels.

 

[Jman8]

The consumer will pay for the testing one way or another. Increased costs of testing will simply be added to the product's final cost, or corners will be cut somewhere else to lower the manufacturing prices. But the cost for a manufacturer is nothing, that's the difference. Were talking a few pennies a bottle, IF that. If a company cares so little for their customers that it isn't worth a few pennies a bottle, then that isn't a company I want to do business with.

I disagree that it would be pennies for manufacturers. For some, perhaps. E.g. - BV or BT. But not like every vendor is ordering high amount of each flavor and each flavor combo, so it would make sense that each batch, per flavor would undergo this testing if it is put upon manufacturers.

When people talk about the currently proposed FDA regulations being harsh, I surmise that they mostly to only mean the cost aspect for testing purposes that would be requirements of FDA (in order to market a product legally). Granted FDA would want more testing than what you are suggesting here, but as I've said before, what is to stop vaping community / consumers from wanting more than just this item tested. The more items that are tested for, the closer it is to what FDA was going for.

One of the vendors I go with advertises that they have 14 million flavor combinations available. At pennies per bottle, do the math and let me know how long this vendor would stand a chance in such a market. The only alternative I could see for them is to greatly reduce their flavor options. I consider this vendor part of BV (perhaps they aren't) and I don't see them surviving if such demands are placed on them. I honestly can't see many flavor providers surviving for such reasons, cause it's not like we live in a world where it's just some consumers who want this, but is identifiable as ploy for tobacco control to (greatly) curtail the market.

Thus if vaper wants that market to survive, they'd strongly advocate for free market at all costs, and not one that has burdens put upon sellers, that when thought through, means only BV is surviving.

But you suggest the customer take the burden of shelling out a hundo every time they want to try a new juice? I know some people have thousand dollar juice collections but what you suggest would require that of everybody who wants to know what they are consuming.

I'll repeat again in case it was missed before, pennies a bottle for a manufacturer, or a hundred bucks a bottle for the customer? Was your suggestion a serious one?

I wouldn't require it of any customer, but would suggest if a customer is using the word requirement, they start with themselves.

Even if vendor did the testing, it stands to reason that any consumer not verifying the results themselves are then relying on faith / trust to work this issue out, in way that is satisfactory to them.

I've also said that the alternative to the diacetyl issue isn't known to be much better, but presumed so. It is plausible it is worse. And I still have running bet with anyone that cares, that suggests the market under FDA (rigorous) testing will be more harmful to consumers, as in there will be more reported incidents of harm. Thus far no takers on this bet. That tells me something. I bring this up because some consumers want a mini version of what FDA has advocated for, but I've seen no indication from the community collective to say where it would stop. Thus, I am abundantly serious when I say consumer do own testing, if truly care or realize that such advocacy for manufacturing to carry the burden will a) gravely affect the market and b) offer very little to no actual assurance that what you say you desire will (magically) be what you actually receive.

 

[WattWick]

We can rant and rave about freedoms and personal responsibility all we want.

What I personally want freedom from is having to become a chemist to eat safely and an astrophysicist to avoid getting hit by stray meteors. Then a lawyer to protect my legal rights. And a medical doctor to avoid being sold meds I don't need.

We can't all know it all. Which is one of the foundations for social interaction. And unfortunately, to some extent; social structure.

 

[Oliver]

One good thing about these results is they weren't done by Enthalpy labs. I have seen some juice vendors claim they don't trust Enthalpy because of their association with AEMSA. In their opinion, AEMSA is an extortion racket. Well, now we have C9 in the UK showing similar test results (from a different lab). So, is it fair to say this "racket" is an international conspiracy?

No offense, but that's pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've read in weeks. People can have differing opinions as to what AEMSA are, and what their value is, but to suggest that there's something wrong with Enthalpy because of an association with AEMSA is just wrong.

Enthalpy are one of the leading laboratories for e-cigarette analysis. They developed the methodology which Dr. Farsalinos used for his original diacetyl study.

I don't know about the quality of competing labs, but I'd suggest that any serious e-liquid company should at least have a relationship with Enthalpy.

The thing most people don't realise is that the laboratories need to have an understanding of the products they're looking at. You can send your eliquid to a random lab and it will come back fine - you send it to, say, Enthalpy, and it will come back saying: "when we analysed your liquid for known problematic ingredients at the appropriate level of detection, we found ....."

 

[Oliver]

I disagree that it would be pennies for manufacturers. For some, perhaps. E.g. - BV or BT. But not like every vendor is ordering high amount of each flavor and each flavor combo, so it would make sense that each batch, per flavor would undergo this testing if it is put upon manufacturers.

When people talk about the currently proposed FDA regulations being harsh, I surmise that they mostly to only mean the cost aspect for testing purposes that would be requirements of FDA (in order to market a product legally). Granted FDA would want more testing than what you are suggesting here, but as I've said before, what is to stop vaping community / consumers from wanting more than just this item tested. The more items that are tested for, the closer it is to what FDA was going for.

One of the vendors I go with advertises that they have 14 million flavor combinations available. At pennies per bottle, do the math and let me know how long this vendor would stand a chance in such a market. The only alternative I could see for them is to greatly reduce their flavor options. I consider this vendor part of BV (perhaps they aren't) and I don't see them surviving if such demands are placed on them. I honestly can't see many flavor providers surviving for such reasons, cause it's not like we live in a world where it's just some consumers who want this, but is identifiable as ploy for tobacco control to (greatly) curtail the market.

Thus if vaper wants that market to survive, they'd strongly advocate for free market at all costs, and not one that has burdens put upon sellers, that when thought through, means only BV is surviving.



I wouldn't require it of any customer, but would suggest if a customer is using the word requirement, they start with themselves.

Even if vendor did the testing, it stands to reason that any consumer not verifying the results themselves are then relying on faith / trust to work this issue out, in way that is satisfactory to them.

I've also said that the alternative to the diacetyl issue isn't known to be much better, but presumed so. It is plausible it is worse. And I still have running bet with anyone that cares, that suggests the market under FDA (rigorous) testing will be more harmful to consumers, as in there will be more reported incidents of harm. Thus far no takers on this bet. That tells me something. I bring this up because some consumers want a mini version of what FDA has advocated for, but I've seen no indication from the community collective to say where it would stop. Thus, I am abundantly serious when I say consumer do own testing, if truly care or realize that such advocacy for manufacturing to carry the burden will a) gravely affect the market and b) offer very little to no actual assurance that what you say you desire will (magically) be what you actually receive.

The problem, as far as I can see it, is the supply chain. It's the flavor companies who are ultimately responsible for the presence or lack thereof of certain compounds.

One other thing you've not touched on - and this is going to apply in Europe from next May - is that when the regulations come into play, every single SKU will be locked down - so if a manufacturer decides they need to change an ingredient, say, an excipient or a flavor compound, this will mean they have a whole new SKU which needs to be registered as a new product.

The exact same thing will occur with Grandfathering. If the supply change is weak - say, a flavor manufacturer is unreliable - the products will need to be reformulated and, therefore, will not qualify as grandfathered.

In reality, I think the FDA will not enforce (it's impossible) for some time. But this will be how companies get shaken out in years to come.

 

[Sirius]

I think all of this should mean change is afoot. So many juice manufacturers claim to test their juices and that their juices are "Diacetyl Free" or below "acceptable levels". IF you are testing your juices, post those results! I may prefer flavor A over flavor B, but if flavor A is higher in Diacetyl or AP, just tell me how much! Then I can make a decision as an informed consumer over whether my preference justifies the increased exposure, or if I might prefer to vape another flavor instead, to reduce my exposure.

It really is that simple. I do my best to avoid unhealthy foods. Unfortunately I spend some time on the road, and it isn't always possible. Now that fast food restaurants are posting the calories, sodium and fat content of their offerings, I often choose something that I may not like as much, if it has far less calories, sodium, and fat than my primary choice. I understand that you want to sell something that brings me back, but at least let me make the decision about what it is that I am coming back FOR.

I never would have considered Arby's to be a top contender for my business while on the road, until I read the stats on their pecan chicken sandwich and tried one. It's delicious, and WAY better than my previous choices that I often THOUGHT might be a better choice. Who knew how much FAT was added to a salad via the dressing?! What we think, and what we know are often much different. And we don't KNOW what we know, until we know it, if you know what I mean.

You just nailed it LeBeau..We don't know what we know until we know it..The liars do not help us to know either. To not fully disclose is a lot like telling a lie imo.

 

[Sirius]

The problem, as far as I can see it, is the supply chain. It's the flavor companies who are ultimately responsible for the presence or lack thereof of certain compounds.

One other thing you've not touched on - and this is going to apply in Europe from next May - is that when the regulations come into play, every single SKU will be locked down - so if a manufacturer decides they need to change an ingredient, say, an excipient or a flavor compound, this will mean they have a whole new SKU which needs to be registered as a new product.

The exact same thing will occur with Grandfathering. If the supply change is weak - say, a flavor manufacturer is unreliable - the products will need to be reformulated and, therefore, will not qualify as grandfathered.

In reality, I think the FDA will not enforce (it's impossible) for some time. But this will be how companies get shaken out in years to come.

Of course,..that would not apply to a eliquid supplier that formulates his own flavors. Like Mr. Foo..He has well over 198 flavors thus far..All to my knowledge are his own creations..No wonder that man is so secretive..lol

 

[Sirius]

yes, that was my point when I said who cares....because it was splitting hairs. That it didn't matter if it was 3mg off or 10mg off......according to cloud 9, they were outside the limits allowed to be "off" on their nicotine levels.

That's something that at first flew right by me..lol
I might not mind a bit of diketones,..but I damn sure want my nic level to be RIGHT!

 

[caramel]

I think it's important to also consider the possibility that diketones have already saved many lives by luring people away from smoking. They taste incredibly good to a lot of people. Being a natural born worrier, I don't want diketones for myself, but I don't need them to stay away from smoking.

I like unflavored, but although I believe that unflavored would have been adequate for me to quit, I can't say I'm sure. I did not even try any bakery type flavors 'til months into vaping/no smoking (before I found out about the diketones issue), so I know they weren't necessary for me. Flavoring, in general, might have been.

My experience exactly. I switched using a pretty heavy "caramel coffee" that was gunking coils like there's no tomorrow. But nothing else was a good alternative to cigs at that time. Seeing all that gunk I decided to work my way to lighter stuff and here I am at unflavored after several months. Did that juice contain diketones and sweeteners? Most likely yes. Was it worth inhaling it for about 1 month? I think yes. Now if an alien grows out of my chest I'll be proved wrong....

 

[mechhunter]

5P was supposed to be near the top of the game as far as business and advocacy goes.

I hate to say it, but so far this industry has failed to self regulate, and have outright lied in many cases.

 

[Sirius]

5P was supposed to be near the top of the game as far as business and advocacy goes.

I hate to say it, but so far this industry has failed to self regulate, and have outright lied in many cases.

I'm of the impression now that in the near future eliquid vendors will really be seen as "at the top of their game" to have more than 10 flavors.

 

[skoony]

You and Mike Both - Whats your problem?

Why is it that someone with a differing opinion should be insulted or treated in a demeaning manor?

You are not necessarily Smarter or better simply for making different choices.

People have clearly posted they understand their may be some risk and they have chosen to accept it. No different than choosing to continue Sky Diving or Driving on a crowded freeway daily.

Life is full of risk. Each individual must decide for themselves which they will take and which they will attempt to avoid.

Maybe you could show a little more compassion for fellow members and speak to the matter itself.

That said - I purchase my Flavorings from Perfumers Apprentice(TFA Flavors) and know exactly what I am Mixing and likely vape lesser concentrates of flavoring than most that purchase their e-liquids. I enjoy variety and seldom Vape anything creamy/custardy. I have also ordered and am in the process of taste testing alternative flavorings for substitution.

Head in the Sand...............la la land.........
I think NOT.

i have absolutely no problem with those who chose to vape
the way they want to vape and use the juice they choose
to use.
my concern is when some try to use the fears of potential
risks on every one with not even rudimentary evidence
showing that risk has any potential of harm in the form
of vaping.
OSHA considers popcorn lung a industrial disease. less than
about 100 people have been diagnosed with it. OSHA has
stated they are not even sure diacetly and acetyl are the
cause.OSHA also states they do not no why only certain
work situations,namely manufacturing microwave popcorn,
a handful of workers that make flavors and,recently 2
workers in a coffee roasting plant. OSHA has also said
it could very well be other work place processes and or,
a combination of processes could be responsible for
popcorn lung.no where have i found any official or
knowledgeable source stating categorically diacetyl and
acetyl cause popcorn lung. just because a court said
so does not make it true.
if you think its a problem that's fine. do what you have to do.
in the meantime stop using the term popcorn lung thinking
its a winning argument. if diacetyl and acetyl are such a problem
the FDA would have already jumped all over it and there would be
no such thing as aroma therapy.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

Yes, my favorite "new lying" examples are eliquid companies who, when caught in a lie, say that the test results are inaccurate, were done to them to kill their business or {insert other excuse here}.

Cloud 9 carries these eliquid products and has no reason to sink anyone. (Similar to Vaporshark). As a matter of fact, it affects their bottom line. When they have to turn down orders for ejuices they carry.

But they obviously do not want to be liable for incorrect nicotine levels in products they are selling.......and I sure do not blame them!

any one who believes vaporsharks marketing campaign has
any thing to do with our health needs a few lessons in
advertising. vaporshark along with all the other vendors
who are jumping on the diacetyl and acetyl band wagon
are simply playing on the fears of people to bolster their
bottom line.
i have in the past and believe now the majority of these
so called testing results are bogus and now are getting
unrealistically high results. not one of them has shown
any thing like a chain of custody proving that in fact
what they sent in for testing was actually what they received
in the first place.wild,wild west. you betchya.

regards
mike

 

[skoony]

It's not supposed to be cheap and easy to be in this business though. We are inhaling stuff that was intended for ingestion ! Lots of unknowns here. Everyone has a different risk threshold. Your level of concern ( given currently available information and your understanding and interpretation of it ) might be a 2 out of 10, and mine could be a 5 for example. Accurate and truthful disclosure is the only way informed decisions could be made.

At the very least they could say something like " We don't know if there is x, y, or z in our product and the cost of testing would be too burdensome for us currently. ".

why does everyone forget about all the tests when averaged
out indicate vaping is 98.7% times safer than smoking.
Bill Godshall always quotes 99.9 percent safer.
some tests have indicated vaping is 100% safer
than smoking. do not these tests mean anything?
regards
mike

 

[kates]

Tips of Using Vegetable Glycerin - EnkiVillage
You are aware Vegetable glycerin is Toxic right? As well as propylene Glycol.

'Propylene glycol is a form of vegetable glycerin that have proved to be toxic to dogs, cats, horses and other animals'.

I don’t think this is true. Ethylene glycol is fatally toxic to animals but PG isn't (although not good for cats as it contributes to heinz body anemia) - at reasonable levels animals are fine with it, I think it's fine for humans too unless they have an allergy or are force fed huge quantities of it. Ethylene glycol is the stuff they replaced with PG as a safer alternative and it often confused with PG.

Cloud 9 is one of the most reputable companies in the UK and as one of the owners said in the UK forum
'We aren't saying you haven't got the right to vape this stuff if you want to - we're not the vaping police.
What we are saying is that we don't want to supply it, and that full information should be out there so that consumers can make a choice'.
That is my take on this - I actually don't care whether people vape these juices, I agree there is not enough evidence to 'ban' but I think there is enough evidence to show possible risk. I vape mainly unflavoured but I have a lot of family & friends I am hoping will convert and I want them to have the information available to make their decision. I believe the labs are taking a huge risk if they are giving false results - as far as I can see they have nothing to gain? If it is proved they have done so - they will have lost their reputation and their business. (Not sure about the USA but the lab Cloud 9 used is the independent lab used by Trading Standards - they will certainly be subject to ongoing checks as to the validity of their work).

 

[LouisLeBeau]

why does everyone forget about all the tests when averaged
out indicate vaping is 98.7% times safer than smoking.
Bill Godshall always quotes 99.9 percent safer.
some tests have indicated vaping is 100% safer
than smoking. do not these tests mean anything?
regards
mike

We as vapers understand this. But we also understand this is an unregulated market, and we would VERY much like to KEEP it that way. The ONLY hope we have of avoiding regulation is by policing ourselves beyond doubt and with utmost integrity. Players who come in and either do not know or worse, do know and don't tell, that their wares might contain chemicals of concern are a threat not only to we vapers, but also to our claims and hopes that we do not need strict government oversight of this industry.

Five Pawns imo, continuing to sell those wares online with the knowledge of these test results and without full disclosure, has violated the trust of its customers and the vape community as a whole. I am open to hearing their defense, but it should have been pro-active and now it will be reactive. Their business model is completely suspect at this point, and I hope their customers vote with their feet.

 

[skoony]

We as vapers understand this. But we also understand this is an unregulated market, and we would VERY much like to KEEP it that way. The ONLY hope we have of avoiding regulation is by policing ourselves beyond doubt and with utmost integrity. Players who come in and either do not know or worse, do know and don't tell, that their wares might contain chemicals of concern are a threat not only to we vapers, but also to our claims and hopes that we do not need strict government oversight of this industry.

Five Pawns imo, continuing to sell those wares online with the knowledge of these test results and without full disclosure, has violated the trust of its customers and the vape community as a whole. I am open to hearing their defense, but it should have been pro-active and now it will be reactive. Their business model is completely suspect at this point, and I hope their customers vote with their feet.

thanks for the response.
it is my opinion however the FDA is going to regulate the
life out of the industry regardless of what we do or don't
do. they will however use this debate as justification for
regulations. not because diacetyl or acetyl are harmful
in vaping but,because they will say if such small issues are
causing such concern in the vaping "community' we have
the obligation and duty to do it for them the right way.
as for 5P's,they are not violating any ones trust. least of
all the vaping 'community'. if you do not like their business
model,buy elsewhere.there is absolutely no need to be
tarnishing their reputation.they owe no one an apology.

regards
mike

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I've just come upon this thread this morning. I have scanned it and can't claim to have digested all the content. It is good to see the avatars / pictures of many familiar and respected posters here.

An independent committee dedicated to testing and publishing toxicology reports for what we vape is something that just has to happen. A non-profit with qualified volunteers and public, by-donation funding seems like a reasonable compromise between the potentially self-serving interests of government oversight and private testing.

Of course that's a whole lot easier said than done, but it needs to happen as far as I'm concerned. There's a reason moonshine is generally illegal.

I too favor independent oversight. The Consumer Product Safety Commission is such an independent entity which reports to Congress. U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I prefer a model along the lines of CPSC to a fascist industry organization which aims include conspiring with government to have their scheme made into law to be followed by all.

A better notion is an entity with no ties but to consumer safety. If taxpayer funded, such as the CPSC is, the difficulties of fundraising and potential biases found there are avoided.

This notion deserves serious consideration.