Donate to Dr Farsalinos' new study
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For those types of vendors (and not assuming yours is) this is exactly what needs to happen and will happen when consumers become more informed. This is the prime purpose of ECF - and anyone who wants to vape and has a computer should find us very soon if not before. Most vendors know this and make changes so as not to lose business but for those that don't, I have no problem with them going out of business or just catering to those who are uninformed - and the 'uniformed' get informed rather quickly these days.
I don't like 'should' either because it almost always implies a gov't action
I mean that when people want certain things it is appropriate that they pay for them and not involve anyone else. We part ways (and not that it would matter to you, but I'm a bit surprised and disappointed) when you say: "I think if it "should" come from anywhere, it is general public (taxpayers) and ought to be balanced, in the name of science."Much of the junk science has been 'in the name of science' and to socialize costs for concerns of certain people isn't justified. Further discussion on that goes beyond this scope.....
I should jump in because I am a co-author on this paper and poster (Kistler), and there were some questions that may not have been answered fully.
A natural flavor is generally a single compound that is found in the food itself. Diacetyl itself is a natural flavor! So diacetyl will contain diacetyl, of course. But a natural banana flavor is isoamyl acetate. By itself, it is a natural flavor, since it is found in banana. But a flavor compounder (generally who we buy from) might combine natural flavor compounds with other flavor compounds, and these may include diacetyl or acetyl propionyl. But if I bought a bottle of isoamyl acetate, and it also contained diacetyl, I would send it back.
A "natural extract" is just that, an extract, often with ethanol, of the whole food. In some cases, these can contain biomolecules, like proteins, lipids, polysaccharides, and other big molecules that can easily decompose with heat, or at the very least probably should not be inhaled.
"Organic", as in organic crops and foods, is a questionable label for an e-liquid. If the flavors are organic extracts, then these should be avoided, for the above reasons. If they are simple flavors molecules, and synthetic, then they have nothing to do with organic farming at all, although they are rigorously organic compounds, as in containing carbon! PG is synthetically produced, so organic, as in organic farming, is simply false (but it contains carbon so is an organic compound). VG can be derived from organically grown palm or soy, so the label could be valid. Both of these solvents should be USP grade. This is more important to me than "organic", although VG can be both "organic" and USP. Purely organic flavors are most likely extracts, and thus risky.
The flavor industry is a labyrinth of natural flavor compounds, artificial flavor compounds, extracts, whole food products, salts, and other additives. Very complicated, even for a seasoned chemist like me, and what we have found is many flavor compounders (well known companies we all deal with) do not know the chemical composition of their products well. Some do. But some don't. I suspect that unless they specifically add diacetyl, and the flavors they buy don't mention diacetyl, which is possible, they probably think their flavors are DA free. I would rather think that than they make the claim and purposely add DA. We don't have direct evidence that this is what is happening, it seems more like simple ignorance. At least I hope so.
DA could be called an ingredient, I suppose, but it is actually classified as an adulterant, because of its known health risks. It is also a contaminant when it is found in acetoin batches, as anything other than acetoin in this case would be technically a contaminant, meaning not acetoin. Again, acetoin is pretty benign, but some batches of acetoin have been shown to be contaminated with trace DA.
The bottom line is DA and AP can be removed or not included, verified by testing, and are thus avoidable. It might reduce the number of flavors, their richness or general creaminess, but this is the prudent thing to do until we know more about the actual toxicity to humans. But regardless of actual danger, many consumers buy flavors generally on faith that they are DA-free, because they are told this...in writing. But it is clearly not true in many cases. And AP is potentially just as bad.
My work with the industry, e-liquid manufacturers, flavor experts, etc, has told me that virtually everyone in these industries was surprised by these DA findings. They, for the most part, really did not know. Those that had deeper knowledge of flavor science suspected, but few were doing tests to verify. Some were testing...thus the acetoin/diacetyl issue. For years manufacturers of e-liquids simply took it on faith that the flavors that were advertised as DA-Free were actually that, just like many people here doing DIY.
AP was the preferred replacement for DA if the manufacturer was claiming DA-free products. And until recently, when tests on rats were done and published, the thought was "it is not DA, so it must be ok". But any organic chemist that looks at their structures would predict almost the same chemistry and toxicity for AP as DA. And this was eventually shown scientifically with rats. But since AP did not have the notoriety of DA, and it was not DA, it was used.
But in their defense, at least a bit, remember also that, as I have said here since 2009, flavors are meant and regulated for FOOD and DRINK (ingestion), not inhalation. The flavor companies don't legally have to do ANYTHING to appease us, and many state that the flavors are not intended for inhalation. DA and AP are safe for ingestion. We were always in uncharted territory, with our only real fallback being "Well its probably not as bad as smoking." In truth, we only know that DA and AP are present, and while we suspect they may be toxic in vaping, perhaps cumulatively, until studies are done specifically measuring this, we do not know the actual risks. We can only compare probable levels in the vapor with gov't-set limits for workers.
But consumer demands to be able to vape DA-free, whether from actual risk or perceived, have been in place for years now. No different than someone who chooses not to eat animal products suddenly finding out that their veggie burgers have bacon in them. One can cry that bacon is fine, no risk, stupid vegans, still better than eating road kill, blah blah blah, but the fact is that those consumers would be having their choice robbed of them, without their knowledge.
I believe that regardless of actual risks this must be addressed, and this study is a step in that direction. The good news is that there has been resolving movement in the industry (at least with some flavor and juice manufacturers) for several months now, behind the scenes.
I will not say who's flavors or e-liquids we tested, as Dr F is completely correct in his stance on this, but I will say that most of the positive results, as in DA/AP was present, were in the usual suspects: creams, custards, cookies, vanillas, cakes, caramels, and other desserts that combine these. Fruits were less of a problem, but there were exceptions. DA or AP can be used as a flavor addition to fruits to make them taste ripe. But in general there were few fruits testing positive. Again, I will not reveal who made these flavors or e-liquids. Not even in PM. It is a small subsection of HUGE industries, and the problem is most likely throughout.
My advise is for now avoid any creamy desert flavors. If they don't have DA they probably have AP. I would also try to get used to using flavors in very low %s if you DIY. Max for my juices is 5%, most of the time I am at 1-2%, and this is not using super-concentrates. Much of the time I vape unflavored. For reasons of risk uncertainty, I prefer faint flavors. We have detected two compounds that are known inhalation risks, but there is an enormous number of flavor compounds, few of which have been tested rigorously for inhalation risks. And there are compounds similar chemically to DA and AP that are also being used.
Bronchiolitis obliterans is not well understood, since it is rare. It could be an autoimmune response, not just chemical. It could be other factors have to be present for it to occur. It could be cumulative, and starts out barely noticed, and irreversibly increases over time. It seems that the only treatment available currently is lung transplant...but recent studies are showing that even the new lung can develop BO, after the surgery. This is not irritation we are trying to avoid, it is potentially lung necrosis, lung death, and perhaps with a resulting physiology that no matter the treatment, insists on lung death, including with a new lung and no further DA exposure. And as Dr F points out, it could be that BO is just one lung problem caused by DA, that COPD might also be a result, or BO could be being misdiagnosed as COPD. With smoking, DA and AP are combustion products, and cannot be avoided. Not so with e-liquids.
The solution is straight forward: make flavors and juices available that are verified to not contain DA or AP. There is movement to do this, although I cannot say time frames, as I do not know.
Had the flavor industry been correct in their general claims of being DA-free, we would probably not be here now. Had warnings about AP been ubiquitously stated with firm warnings with all flavor companies, not just one or two, we would probably not be here now.
And to be very clear: none of us were paid ANYTHING to do this study. All funds obtained from crowd funding simply dictated how many samples we could have tested, and how. We got no money for our time doing the study, writing it up, or presenting it. Our goal is to have the ecig industry intelligently regulate itself before the government has a chance. Not only is it the right thing to do, but it is largely through objective, well performed and reported science that we stand a chance of survival. WE need to think about these things and address them before others, that do not have our best interests in mind, do. We present the problem, as well as feasible remedies for solving it. There are others that, had they done the study first, would do no such thing.
And I believe it is in the best business interest of flavor companies that want to continue to make money from the vaping industry and community to offer lines of flavors that are verified as free of these compounds.
A natural flavor is generally a single compound that is found in the food itself. Diacetyl itself is a natural flavor! So diacetyl will contain diacetyl, of course. But a natural banana flavor is isoamyl acetate. By itself, it is a natural flavor, since it is found in banana. But a flavor compounder (generally who we buy from) might combine natural flavor compounds with other flavor compounds, and these may include diacetyl or acetyl propionyl. But if I bought a bottle of isoamyl acetate, and it also contained diacetyl, I would send it back.
A "natural extract" is just that, an extract, often with ethanol, of the whole food. In some cases, these can contain biomolecules, like proteins, lipids, polysaccharides, and other big molecules that can easily decompose with heat, or at the very least probably should not be inhaled.
"Organic", as in organic crops and foods, is a questionable label for an e-liquid. If the flavors are organic extracts, then these should be avoided, for the above reasons. If they are simple flavors molecules, and synthetic, then they have nothing to do with organic farming at all, although they are rigorously organic compounds, as in containing carbon! PG is synthetically produced, so organic, as in organic farming, is simply false (but it contains carbon so is an organic compound). VG can be derived from organically grown palm or soy, so the label could be valid. Both of these solvents should be USP grade. This is more important to me than "organic", although VG can be both "organic" and USP. Purely organic flavors are most likely extracts, and thus risky.
The flavor industry is a labyrinth of natural flavor compounds, artificial flavor compounds, extracts, whole food products, salts, and other additives. Very complicated, even for a seasoned chemist like me, and what we have found is many flavor compounders (well known companies we all deal with) do not know the chemical composition of their products well. Some do. But some don't. I suspect that unless they specifically add diacetyl, and the flavors they buy don't mention diacetyl, which is possible, they probably think their flavors are DA free. I would rather think that than they make the claim and purposely add DA. We don't have direct evidence that this is what is happening, it seems more like simple ignorance. At least I hope so.
DA could be called an ingredient, I suppose, but it is actually classified as an adulterant, because of its known health risks. It is also a contaminant when it is found in acetoin batches, as anything other than acetoin in this case would be technically a contaminant, meaning not acetoin. Again, acetoin is pretty benign, but some batches of acetoin have been shown to be contaminated with trace DA.
The bottom line is DA and AP can be removed or not included, verified by testing, and are thus avoidable. It might reduce the number of flavors, their richness or general creaminess, but this is the prudent thing to do until we know more about the actual toxicity to humans. But regardless of actual danger, many consumers buy flavors generally on faith that they are DA-free, because they are told this...in writing. But it is clearly not true in many cases. And AP is potentially just as bad.
My work with the industry, e-liquid manufacturers, flavor experts, etc, has told me that virtually everyone in these industries was surprised by these DA findings. They, for the most part, really did not know. Those that had deeper knowledge of flavor science suspected, but few were doing tests to verify. Some were testing...thus the acetoin/diacetyl issue. For years manufacturers of e-liquids simply took it on faith that the flavors that were advertised as DA-Free were actually that, just like many people here doing DIY.
AP was the preferred replacement for DA if the manufacturer was claiming DA-free products. And until recently, when tests on rats were done and published, the thought was "it is not DA, so it must be ok". But any organic chemist that looks at their structures would predict almost the same chemistry and toxicity for AP as DA. And this was eventually shown scientifically with rats. But since AP did not have the notoriety of DA, and it was not DA, it was used.
But in their defense, at least a bit, remember also that, as I have said here since 2009, flavors are meant and regulated for FOOD and DRINK (ingestion), not inhalation. The flavor companies don't legally have to do ANYTHING to appease us, and many state that the flavors are not intended for inhalation. DA and AP are safe for ingestion. We were always in uncharted territory, with our only real fallback being "Well its probably not as bad as smoking." In truth, we only know that DA and AP are present, and while we suspect they may be toxic in vaping, perhaps cumulatively, until studies are done specifically measuring this, we do not know the actual risks. We can only compare probable levels in the vapor with gov't-set limits for workers.
But consumer demands to be able to vape DA-free, whether from actual risk or perceived, have been in place for years now. No different than someone who chooses not to eat animal products suddenly finding out that their veggie burgers have bacon in them. One can cry that bacon is fine, no risk, stupid vegans, still better than eating road kill, blah blah blah, but the fact is that those consumers would be having their choice robbed of them, without their knowledge.
I believe that regardless of actual risks this must be addressed, and this study is a step in that direction. The good news is that there has been resolving movement in the industry (at least with some flavor and juice manufacturers) for several months now, behind the scenes.
I will not say who's flavors or e-liquids we tested, as Dr F is completely correct in his stance on this, but I will say that most of the positive results, as in DA/AP was present, were in the usual suspects: creams, custards, cookies, vanillas, cakes, caramels, and other desserts that combine these. Fruits were less of a problem, but there were exceptions. DA or AP can be used as a flavor addition to fruits to make them taste ripe. But in general there were few fruits testing positive. Again, I will not reveal who made these flavors or e-liquids. Not even in PM. It is a small subsection of HUGE industries, and the problem is most likely throughout.
My advise is for now avoid any creamy desert flavors. If they don't have DA they probably have AP. I would also try to get used to using flavors in very low %s if you DIY. Max for my juices is 5%, most of the time I am at 1-2%, and this is not using super-concentrates. Much of the time I vape unflavored. For reasons of risk uncertainty, I prefer faint flavors. We have detected two compounds that are known inhalation risks, but there is an enormous number of flavor compounds, few of which have been tested rigorously for inhalation risks. And there are compounds similar chemically to DA and AP that are also being used.
Bronchiolitis obliterans is not well understood, since it is rare. It could be an autoimmune response, not just chemical. It could be other factors have to be present for it to occur. It could be cumulative, and starts out barely noticed, and irreversibly increases over time. It seems that the only treatment available currently is lung transplant...but recent studies are showing that even the new lung can develop BO, after the surgery. This is not irritation we are trying to avoid, it is potentially lung necrosis, lung death, and perhaps with a resulting physiology that no matter the treatment, insists on lung death, including with a new lung and no further DA exposure. And as Dr F points out, it could be that BO is just one lung problem caused by DA, that COPD might also be a result, or BO could be being misdiagnosed as COPD. With smoking, DA and AP are combustion products, and cannot be avoided. Not so with e-liquids.
The solution is straight forward: make flavors and juices available that are verified to not contain DA or AP. There is movement to do this, although I cannot say time frames, as I do not know.
Had the flavor industry been correct in their general claims of being DA-free, we would probably not be here now. Had warnings about AP been ubiquitously stated with firm warnings with all flavor companies, not just one or two, we would probably not be here now.
And to be very clear: none of us were paid ANYTHING to do this study. All funds obtained from crowd funding simply dictated how many samples we could have tested, and how. We got no money for our time doing the study, writing it up, or presenting it. Our goal is to have the ecig industry intelligently regulate itself before the government has a chance. Not only is it the right thing to do, but it is largely through objective, well performed and reported science that we stand a chance of survival. WE need to think about these things and address them before others, that do not have our best interests in mind, do. We present the problem, as well as feasible remedies for solving it. There are others that, had they done the study first, would do no such thing.
And I believe it is in the best business interest of flavor companies that want to continue to make money from the vaping industry and community to offer lines of flavors that are verified as free of these compounds.
And that is why it is also customary for businesses who operate in a specific industry to join industry trade associations and professional societies.
Hundreds of thousands of professionals and small business people find solutions (banding together, for networking, learning, and pooling resources for common goals. )
I've joined, benefited, and served in many of these. The shared philosophy is that working on solutions is more profitable than working on excuses.
I would just get fruit flavors and not add sweeteners. I've done it before and the flavor is fine without it. I've also been known to vape non-flavored liquid, just vg, distilled water and 6mg nic and it's actually a sweet vape.
EDIT: Mixing your own is not rocket science.
I understand that and encourage it as long as it is by choice. And I admire that you do that. But what happens is those in those groups sometimes find their way to gov't and tend to regulate or tax those not in those "accepted" associations out of business, whereas I think that the free market is a better solution. It many times results in the same businesses being driven out, but by their practices, not by coercion.
Kurt, Whenever I see you post to a thread I've been reading I always sit up and learn.
Thanks for taking the time to compose such an elegant and concise explanation
Some of what you posted helped distill some of my thoughts.
I think that if our prefered vendors demanded diketone testing documentation from their flavoring suppliers, stating that they'll take their business elsewhere if they don't comply, the flavoring suppliers would be willing (however grudgingly) to supply said documentation.
We, as consumers, have the power to make that happen.
There might also be philanthropic, affluent vapers that would be willing to fund extra testing and publicize their third party findings as double-checks for the community.
I think the flavoring suppliers should bear the costs of testing.
They'll cry "the flavors aren't specifically formulated or intended for inhalation" but our juice vendors could make a concerted effort to help us require transparency and rigorous honesty.
If we accept less then that's what we'll get.
Thanks to you, Dr. F and everyone involved for watching out for the vaping community.
Thanks for taking the time to compose such an elegant and concise explanation
Some of what you posted helped distill some of my thoughts.
I think that if our prefered vendors demanded diketone testing documentation from their flavoring suppliers, stating that they'll take their business elsewhere if they don't comply, the flavoring suppliers would be willing (however grudgingly) to supply said documentation.
We, as consumers, have the power to make that happen.
There might also be philanthropic, affluent vapers that would be willing to fund extra testing and publicize their third party findings as double-checks for the community.
I think the flavoring suppliers should bear the costs of testing.
They'll cry "the flavors aren't specifically formulated or intended for inhalation" but our juice vendors could make a concerted effort to help us require transparency and rigorous honesty.
If we accept less then that's what we'll get.
Thanks to you, Dr. F and everyone involved for watching out for the vaping community.
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Really, really enjoyed your long explanation Kurt and helping us laypeople understand the issue. I do have one pressing question that I've asked before on this thread and elsewhere and stems from this quote:
How would we (anyone) know that synthetic flavoring or other replacements are safe for inhalation?
In case it is hard to understand what I'm asking, I am wondering if it will be another thing down the road that is the main culprit for unsafe vaping, and that is either currently present or might be added instead of DA or AP.
I feel I could ask other (relevant) questions, but this one to me is at the core of this issue, and kinda sorta feel that the answer for all of us will be "we cross that bridge when we get to it."
How would we (anyone) know that synthetic flavoring or other replacements are safe for inhalation?
In case it is hard to understand what I'm asking, I am wondering if it will be another thing down the road that is the main culprit for unsafe vaping, and that is either currently present or might be added instead of DA or AP.
I feel I could ask other (relevant) questions, but this one to me is at the core of this issue, and kinda sorta feel that the answer for all of us will be "we cross that bridge when we get to it."
Kurt, thank you. I just looked back over at your post and had no idea how long it actually was -- it read so easily.
In certain scenarios, they might be better served making a contribution to their
1) legal/litigation fund; or 2) unemployment hedge savings account.
I guess it depends on how intransigent they are.
Excellent question, and more importantly, excellent attitude. You would need a list of the compounds used, unfortunately, at the very least. This is info not easily found or disclosed by flavor companies wanting to keep their flavor recipes a secret, which is their choice. I know TPA has more detailed lists of the compounds than most.
Then you would research each compound. MSDS sheets should be available, but also monitoring inhalation studies is a must. It is very time consuming, and without proper education, can be misleading if not confusing. But it is possible.
Some flavor chemists think that there could be problems with esters. Well, then, there go fruits! And a bunch of other flavors. Not seen anything of real concern on those, however, myself. Not saying there is no problem, but I've not seen anything to make me think it is serious. Anything meat flavored is going to have other risky compounds. Fact: there are several type of molecules that cause lung problems in workers exposed: long chain carboxylic acids, some aldehydes, some ketones, and other compounds. This study was just the overtly risky ones, DA and AP. But then I've been advising against meat flavors for years here. Cinnammaldehyde is another risky one, for a LOT of people get bad reactions to cinnamon vapes. I do. In some cases it is dangerous, not just irritating, as the throat can close up if you are sensitive. At least two reports here on that, so there are probably more.
In short, besides exhaustively researching every chemical used in a flavor you use, it is best to minimize flavors in general. It is far more pleasurable for me to vape with a hint of flavor, or no flavor, than be filling my mouth, throat and lungs with big heavy flavor. I know too much!! Uncertainty kills the pleasure of the vape for me. And most heavy flavors just get cloying very quickly anyway. Minimizing flavors minimizes the risks. And if a flavor is causing coughing or phlegm or catching in the throat, then using it is never a good idea, as the body is telling you to stop, or it has to do special things (make phlegm) to get rid of it.
Kurt, I knew you vaped low flavoring, etc. because I read your posts 2 years ago when I joined here and took notes. You and the other people in DIY are directly responsible for my starting to DIY in the first place, cuz I saw many had some suspicions about certain ingredients....there were quite a lot of discussions about it. When inhaling I vape unflavored, otherwise, I just don't inhale at all. I feel better about that in uncertain times. I do buy vendor liquid but also dilute it 5:1 with vg/pg after it arrives, so there is just the faintess flavoring. I got used to it!
For that, thank you, and now to find that you're part of a team who dilligently followed up on this stuff, to help others, both vapers and the industry, and for little to no compensation, I thank you again. And AESMA which I have kept up with.
Hopefully the researcher(s) who take on future studies won't be branded with political labels nor idealogicially-fuelled suspicions about profit motives or anything else, and will be free continue to report, with the honesty that Dr. F. has exemplified, on the safety of our vaping liquids.
For that, thank you, and now to find that you're part of a team who dilligently followed up on this stuff, to help others, both vapers and the industry, and for little to no compensation, I thank you again. And AESMA which I have kept up with.
Hopefully the researcher(s) who take on future studies won't be branded with political labels nor idealogicially-fuelled suspicions about profit motives or anything else, and will be free continue to report, with the honesty that Dr. F. has exemplified, on the safety of our vaping liquids.
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Kurt, can I just ask, what is the basis of the 60ug per day figure? (20ug/ml x 3ml/day) So far as I can see the NIOSH figure is 5ppb in room air, and I don't see how you convert that to a mg/ml number.
@rurwin: the 5 ppb in air is the aerosol concentration set by NIOSH. 20 ug/mL is a liquid concentration. it is converted by knowing the volume that is vaporized per puff, on average, the tidal volume of the lungs (inhalation volume, average), and converting then the liquid concentration into aerosol concentration. That conversion is based on previous studies by Dr F. I don't have my spreadsheet of the conversions at the moment, but it revolves around assuming that all DA/AP in the liquid, at some concentration, can be converted to aerosol concentration knowing these parameters. It also assumed a completely average ego/evod device. So think of these numbers as ballpark numbers, and YMMV.
Thanks, Racehorse, and thanks to the others and their kind words.
I would say 75% of the time I am vaping unflavored nic, VG and water. The rest of the time probably around 2%. The US, especially, favors highly flavored e-liquids, with some vendors selling up to 40% flavored liquids. In Europe flavor% is much lower, in general, 5% or less.
Thanks again for your response and taking the time to respond to the questions. Core question was one I care about most, so no more questions and thanks for that. But, I did have to say, this:
... makes me
Like when I was 9 years old and first time hearing (and understanding) the dentist say "it is best to minimize sugars in general."
You just made that 9 year old never ever want to grow up.
(Fortunately, the 44 year old in me is like, eh, made it this far.)
... makes me
Like when I was 9 years old and first time hearing (and understanding) the dentist say "it is best to minimize sugars in general."
You just made that 9 year old never ever want to grow up.
(Fortunately, the 44 year old in me is like, eh, made it this far.)
In certain scenarios, they might be better served making a contribution to their
1) legal/litigation fund; or 2) unemployment hedge savings account.
I agree.....
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