New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Well Kat, I appreciate your finding this. Knew I'd done this a while back. I think it's time (or wish I had it) to start cataloging the running journal of tensioned winding. A best of, if you will, cause I know I don't always hit the mark. The critical point being that about 150-200 mw/mm2 is the center for thermal distribution. If used as a guide and build to a heat range in watts say between 3.7-4.2V suitable to your device/s, you're gonna have a really nice vape. Make it efficient by way of a tensioned closed wind and you'll thank yourself. You now have a rock solid sign post for that road trip.
Good luck.
p.s. Expect the latter to seem effectively cooler by at least 20%. Or build to accommodate that greater power level to match the temp goal with even more vapor density.
From Steam Engine's site:Hi, Myrany. I'm not going to pretend that I completely understand it, but I was taught by my learned ECF friends to just stay in the heat flux green zone for my simple single coil builds, which is, generally speaking, under 250. I aim for 200 or less and I'm happy.
I'm sure someone will have a better explanation for you, this is just my
Heat flux
Generally you want to stay somewhere between 120 and 350 mW/mm². Some like a cooler vape, others like it hot. The color of the flame icon will give you a rough idea. Adjust to your own taste.
Heat capacity
The higher the heat capacity, the slower your coil will be to heat up (and to cool down).
Click on "how it works" on the bottom left of Steam Engine's main pages to learn more.
It pops open a continuation of the page with much more detailed info
Yeah I figured out how to put it in the SteamEngine to get the heat Flux number. What I was trying to figure out is how that number related to the temperature concerns and carcinogen risk from the Thread Topic
So If I am understand what you guys are saying I am probably ok (on the top end of my range getting close not not ok) being that my setups hit the 200-250 range in Heat Flux.
So If I am understand what you guys are saying I am probably ok (on the top end of my range getting close not not ok) being that my setups hit the 200-250 range in Heat Flux.
Your guess is as good as mine (ours). Until further notice.
In the meantime, vape defensively. Whatever that means.
heat flux is really just a ball park, as other things will affect it. Notably air flow. A higher heat flux could be cooler in a sub tank then a lower one in a kayfun, since the sub tank has substantially more air flow to cool the coil down.Yeah I figured out how to put it in the SteamEngine to get the heat Flux number. What I was trying to figure out is how that number related to the temperature concerns and carcinogen risk from the Thread Topic
So If I am understand what you guys are saying I am probably ok (on the top end of my range getting close not not ok) being that my setups hit the 200-250 range in Heat Flux.
I changed from 28 guage stainless to 30 guage on Saturday. I adjusted the resistance a couple of .01's untiil cotton just barely browned at 420 F. Today I dry burned and just before rewicking did the cotton test again at 420 F and the results were exactly the same as the previous test. I wasn't entirely happy with the new build, went back to steamengine for another look and decided 20 watts was too high, throttled back to 15 and liking that better. I'm going to keep doing the test. So far the little pico seems to be holding consistent resistance.
Might there be an affordable infrared temp sensor that focuses to a few square mm's. May be that could be used to get good temp readings on coils.
Might there be an affordable infrared temp sensor that focuses to a few square mm's. May be that could be used to get good temp readings on coils.
I have yet to find one, if you do please do share. The affordable guns all have a large "spot", too large for a coil. IR Cameras work good but they are very high dollar.
There's a difference between a hot vape (vapor exiting the atty) and a hot coil. A big oversize coil with just enough power to barely work gives a hotter vape because it's more efficient at heating the air than vaporizing the juice. A small coil at appropriate power in a larger device gives a cool vape, even when the coil is at max. safe temperature.
15W would get that cool vapor temp with most devices, very comfy with fullsize, a relaxing vape. Also there's just the aspect of technique and draw rate. A tight airflow, it's obvious you draw until you get some resistance. 200W, as hard as you can. I have no idea what the correct draw for 40W is. Actually I think 40W may be a no-man's land between MtL and full DL. With my 14-15W device there's little airflow resistance and it's just a matter of not drawing hard enough to cool the coil much. Also a flavor-concentrating drip tip limits power a lot.
Re: the original subject, I've had a lot of issues with a subtle burning taste in many builds. I have given up on my RTAs for now entirely and except for EVODs at 5.2W only vape RDA with the cotton touching the entire coil legs. The other day I was getting a bad taste and had to push the cotton back up against the leg, it wasn't touching for about 2 mm right next to the post. Other than saying wicking is tricky, there is little mention of these kinds of problems. I'm probably doing something wrong but I can't help but wonder if everybody but me doesn't notice the slight burning taste. Yes that's even with a couple tries with TC, although it helped some. It's not a matter of just coil temp over most of the coil, I wasn't able to go above 10W on anything.
What's they're claiming is you can't boil pure VG without it breaking down. Really?
Yep, I wonder about that. Just how (safe) cool is. Or whether?
There must be somethin' to why so many find a range not much over 15W satisfying (even long after quitting).
Good luck.
15W would get that cool vapor temp with most devices, very comfy with fullsize, a relaxing vape. Also there's just the aspect of technique and draw rate. A tight airflow, it's obvious you draw until you get some resistance. 200W, as hard as you can. I have no idea what the correct draw for 40W is. Actually I think 40W may be a no-man's land between MtL and full DL. With my 14-15W device there's little airflow resistance and it's just a matter of not drawing hard enough to cool the coil much. Also a flavor-concentrating drip tip limits power a lot.
Re: the original subject, I've had a lot of issues with a subtle burning taste in many builds. I have given up on my RTAs for now entirely and except for EVODs at 5.2W only vape RDA with the cotton touching the entire coil legs. The other day I was getting a bad taste and had to push the cotton back up against the leg, it wasn't touching for about 2 mm right next to the post. Other than saying wicking is tricky, there is little mention of these kinds of problems. I'm probably doing something wrong but I can't help but wonder if everybody but me doesn't notice the slight burning taste. Yes that's even with a couple tries with TC, although it helped some. It's not a matter of just coil temp over most of the coil, I wasn't able to go above 10W on anything.
What's they're claiming is you can't boil pure VG without it breaking down. Really?
True this. You can have a coil operating at a high resistance (temp) and given adequate juice, airflow for power applied produce a moderate vape temp. I would say, provided it doesn't exceed the capacity of the atomizer. Otherwise, you mostly just make the atty hot after a tug or two. That happens and you're too hot no matter how good the build.
Trying to over-power an under-spec'd build gets us closer OT regarding nasties. There is I think at least an equal risk for low-power devices/rebuilding from the use of excessive power as evidenced by most of the studies I've seen.
See the wisdom of this seemingly simple statement, as I re-read it a few times. I wouldn't necessarily use the word efficient though; rather, an over-sized coil may be more effective at heating up more air (at low power, or any power) than vaporizing juice, i.e. the real work. A gospel I've been preaching a long time about the aspect ratio of wire. And very little discussion on this forum or elsewhere for that matter on the possible secondary effects of such post-vaporization over-heating of juice aerosols for which differential studies would be beneficial of all aspects…wire and vaporization zone temps as wells these secondary effects…to really appreciate what's happening.
If I get your meaning, under-powered large winds in small atty's can barely work (at producing much actual vapor) but still be quite hot from a sensory standpoint. Yep, yes sir, I'd agree. And due to dispersion by heat expansion may appear very productive, if hot as you suggest.
Yeah, I'd tend to agree. And if the coil/build are particularly efficient (at vaporization) you'll get a very rewarding vape in any atty. Me though, I'm an advocate of as much wire contact vaporization surface as the geometry will practically support reliably. That doesn't have to mean thick wire gauges though just more wire mass. Then you can limit or keep the vape cool by dialing back from there to a comfortable zone. What I've seen many suggest in this discussion and it makes sense.
Or how about, the appropriate power+air +wick for a moderate gauge and Ø for the atty geometry driven slightly to the high side of the res/power curve for the build? Sounds like a good plan to me. Either the median or the max that can be supported.
Good luck all.
OK, temperature control. But here are few issues especially with TC wires:
Ni200 - toxic gases,
Ti1 - Titanium dioxide - IARC Group 2B carcinogen
SS - Hexavalent chromium - carcinogen
How to resolve this issues?
Ni200 - toxic gases,
Ti1 - Titanium dioxide - IARC Group 2B carcinogen
SS - Hexavalent chromium - carcinogen
How to resolve this issues?
You ask yourself at under what Conditions do these things Occur? And do I Experience these conditions under Normal Vaping?
And if I do, what Level of Exposure is Actually coming out of the Drip Tip?
Let's say like you said. Do you know answers on this questions? If you do, please tell us.
I know that if you Heat just about any Metal Alloy to or Past it's "Critical Point" that you can Change the Properties of a Metal Alloy. And the Fumes that come of a "Hot" Metal Alloy can be Hazardous.
But those Temperatures would be More on the order of "Cherry Red" to Near Molten. Such as in Smelting or Welding. And the Only Time a Vaper would probably see such Temperatures would be during Dry Burning.
Can I tell you that All those Wire Alloys (or Near Elements) are "Safe" to use. No. I Can't. Because I Can't define what "Safe" is for Another Person. Is Any detectable amount of Potential Harm, no matter how Small, considered "Unsafe"?
If you are Not inhaling a Massive Dry Hit, I think the Potential Harm you are incurring is Much Less than what you Inhale from a Burring Cigarette.
e-Cigarettes are Not Harm Elimination. They are Significant Harm Reduction.
Fair enough. I am not a fan of TC but I will try it anyway. With SS316L and I hope I will not get Hexavalent chromium in my lungs...
Fair enough. I am not a fan of TC but I will try it anyway. With SS316L and I hope I will not get Hexavalent chromium in my lungs...
Do some Research on Hexavalent Chromium. I think what you will find is Two things that will come up a Lot.
Very High Temperatures such as in Welding.
Particular Matter such as from Grinding, Sanding or Abrasion.
BTW - Here is some Info about what we Used to be Inhaling.
Toxic Elements in Tobacco and in Cigarette Smoke: Inflammation and Sensitization
Toxic Elements in Tobacco and in Cigarette Smoke: Inflammation and Sensitization
This fact seems to keep getting lost or forgotten in the topic. That even though a couple of carcinogens were found that are also found in cigarettes (in most cases still lower, and only in very few conditions were they at the same levels), there are still thousands of other things found in cigarette smoke that are just as, if not more harmful then the two found in vape. This means that even if you are vaping an old CE4, and getting the two found carcinogens at cigarette levels, you are STILL magnitudes safer then if you were smoking a cigarette.
Perspective.......matters.
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