New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

Status
Not open for further replies.

Katya

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 23, 2010
34,804
120,147
SoCal
Katya - now that i've swapped out the battery are there any major reasons not to continue using the Prism clearomizer?

So it turns out that those Prism coils are very cartomizer-like, but apparently they are dual coils (?), which is a good thing, as the load (wattage, power) is split between two coils--7 watts per coil, not 14 watts. That's better.

Hmmm... 3rd gen? I'm not so sure.

$6.61 Authentic Innokin Endura T18 Coil Head (5-Pack) 5-pack - 1.5ohm at FastTech - Worldwide Free Shipping
 

puffon

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
  • Sep 18, 2014
    5,928
    15,765
    Florida
    Wonder how many carcinogens i will ingest after eating my buffalo wings and loaded potato skins... who wants to take bets over under vs vaping
    Or toast coming out of a toaster, that uses Kanthal for the filiment.
     

    Katya

    ECF Guru
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    34,804
    120,147
    SoCal
    OK, temperature control. But here are few issues especially with TC wires:

    Ni200 - toxic gases,
    Ti1 - Titanium dioxide - IARC Group 2B carcinogen
    SS - Hexavalent chromium - carcinogen

    How to resolve this issues?

    Oh great! I just built my first ss coil. :lol:

    Carry on!
     

    englishmick

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Sep 25, 2014
    6,580
    35,776
    Naptown, Indiana
    I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this atomizer, but I assume it's a 3rd gen device and can't be very different from your Nautilus. I'm glad you like your lower wattage!

    Just stay away from first and second gen toppers and coils--CE series, most old school cartomizers, old clearos etc. Their coils are made of very thin wires (32-34g) and those heat up very quickly--you don't want that.

    I've been wondering for a while what the generations are, hear them mentioned a lot. What gen are ProTanks and KFL's? Is there a definition somewhere?
     

    Myrany

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Apr 14, 2013
    8,477
    44,353
    Louisiana
    I've been wondering for a while what the generations are, hear them mentioned a lot. What gen are ProTanks and KFL's? Is there a definition somewhere?
    I would guess ProTanks are 2nd gen though they could be the tail end of 1st gen. KFL's are probably 3rd gen I would think.
     

    Verb

    Ultra Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Apr 26, 2014
    1,563
    2,114
    Eastern, PA, USA
    Not really.

    You're forgetting the aluminum oxide protective layer that forms on Kanthal coils when heat is applied. That thin aluminum oxide scale is very effective at protecting the coil from further oxidation and chemical leaching.

    Well, I can taste iron with Kanthal even after an oxide scale is formed. So ...
     

    MacTechVpr

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Aug 24, 2013
    5,725
    14,411
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Not really.

    You're forgetting the aluminum oxide protective layer that forms on Kanthal coils when heat is applied. That thin aluminum oxide scale is very effective at protecting the coil from further oxidation and chemical leaching.

    For all practical purposes; yes in closed contact coils I've observed in volume over several years. However, it's not absolutely. As Dr. Farsalinos noted and confirmed by various knowledgable posters on the thread The [Not So] End of Microcoils, the alumina layer can be degraded. Typically by over-heating which uniform oxidation practices going back a century effectively minimize. The wire is designed for this purpose. The objections on the preceding thread by many in the community was to the suggestion that dry burning was a universal hazard to be avoided, i.e. don't do it. This was ultimately acknowledged to be incorrect.

    If the design capacity of the element is exceeded however as by excessive over-temperature firing, failed installation, oxidation or wind, etc. the alumina layer can be degraded or depleted. I have seen examples of very long term use where this occurred either resulting in some ferric leeching or simply exposure of the core to oxidation. Typically surface integrity is impressively consistent and long-lived (months) when winds are adequately insulated. The t.m.c. process I've encouraged for new vapers makes it easy for anyone to initiate a uniform base from which, over a shorter break in period, a very optimal surface evolves, highly resistant to exposure of the underlying alloy.

    To address @zoiDman's question on power, I found originally that contact expedited alumina development in 1.8-2.4Ω coils with a progression of short bursts starting at 3.2v. This was in an effort to reinforce the strain contact when small gaps (wire variations) were present. And I only asked trainee's to look for it in controlled sub-groups. I generally encouraged builders to focus on curing the contact. In a short time it became obvious quite a few were not only noticing but that the effort equated to surface color/temperature changes they observed in firing.

    Of course the voltage depends on the wire mass so power must correspond. But this is problematical to teach for beginners as more of the physics needs to be understood and so a later lesson as skills are honed. My most important realization is how naturally that happens with a dependable process. One that I might add would be aided if TC could complement Kanthal assuring precise energy input and a very consistent thermal output at the wind.

    For those listening, the door's open.

    Glad to help if I can. Good luck. :)
     

    zoiDman

    My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Apr 16, 2010
    41,619
    1
    84,742
    So-Cal
    ...

    To address @zoiDman's question on power, I found originally that contact expedited alumina development in 1.8-2.4Ω coils with a progression of short bursts starting at 3.2v. This was in an effort to reinforce the strain contact when small gaps (wire variations) were present. And I only asked trainee's to look for it in controlled sub-groups. I generally encouraged builders to focus on curing the contact. In a short time it became obvious quite a few were not only noticing but that the effort equated to surface color/temperature changes they observed in firing.

    Of course the voltage depends on the wire mass so power must correspond. But this is problematical to teach for beginners as more of the physics needs to be understood and so a later lesson as skills are honed. My most important realization is how naturally that happens with a dependable process. One that I might add would be aided if TC could complement Kanthal assuring precise energy input and a very consistent thermal output at the wind.

    For those listening, the door's open.

    Glad to help if I can. Good luck. :)

    Thanks Mac.

    But perhaps you could Quantify some of this with Regards to Temperature/Metal Colour and Time to hold at Temperature?

    IE: Make Coil Cherry Red for 3 Seconds?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Aug 24, 2013
    5,725
    14,411
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Thanks Mac.

    But perhaps you could Quantify some of this with Regards to Temperature/Metal Colour and Time to hold at Temperature?

    IE: Make Coil Cherry Red for 3 Seconds?

    I only hit those temps a split second. Usually try to avoid a full fire >1400F but briefly as final confirmation of best contact (consider the middle frame below). Wire's not perfect and any flaws or significant variation in strain or contact Ø will show as gray zones that will inhibit uniformity and vapor output. Yes, it only takes one. That's how critical. Easier to rewind than fix.

    I think I posted a progression somewhere on my joint thread with supe, Tensioned Micro Next. I know the process works. Have watched hundreds of folks personally accomplish it. Most I might add did it as part of the mechanical process. If you're guided by materials knowledge and a little wire color temp data you're way ahead.

    An example of uniform deposition, more at bottom…



    I just can't make a more effective wind mass-for-mass than this…as hard as I've tried. Was vaping multi-wire for two years behind the scenes as I evolved the approach and possible scientific explanations behind it.

    Finally, let me add that strain is in everything. Tension winding is only the means to control for it.

    Again glad to aid all who think they might benefit from a simple path to a consistent temperature target. Catch me while you can. The noose is tightening on all of us.

    Good luck. :)

    p.s. BTW, the below is a 1 sec fire. We wick conditions, this wind hits vaporization temp ~1sec and the red-orange boundary in 6 secs (with a lot of vapor under that bridge).

     
    Last edited:

    zoiDman

    My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Apr 16, 2010
    41,619
    1
    84,742
    So-Cal
    I only hit those temps a split second. Usually try to avoid a full fire >1400F but briefly as final confirmation of best contact (consider the middle frame below). Wire's not perfect and any flaws or significant variation in strain or contact Ø will show as gray zones that will inhibit uniformity and vapor output. Yes, it only takes one. That's how critical. Easier to rewind than fix.

    I think I posted a progression somewhere on my joint thread with supe, Tensioned Micro Next. I know the process works. Have watched hundreds of folks personally accomplish it. Most I might add did it as part of the mechanical process. If you're guided by materials knowledge and a little wire color temp data you're way ahead.

    An example of uniform deposition, more at bottom…



    I just can't make a more effective wind mass-for-mass than this…as hard as I've tried. Was vaping multi-wire for two years behind the scenes as I evolved the approach and possible scientific explanations behind it.

    Finally, let me add that strain is in everything. Tension winding is only the means to control for it.

    Again glad to aid all who think they might benefit from a simple path to a consistent temperature target. Catch me while you can. The noose is tightening on all of us.

    Good luck. :)


    OK...

    I'm just trying to Understand the Migration of Al in a Solid Solution if Temperatures are below say Cherry Red?

    Thanks again Mac.
     

    MacTechVpr

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Aug 24, 2013
    5,725
    14,411
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    OK...

    I'm just trying to Understand the Migration of Al in a Solid Solution if Temperatures are below say Cherry Red?

    Thanks again Mac.

    Ahaa, that's the rub isn't it. But yeah it does z and it's an amazing thing for vaping in my estimation. Particularly for new vapers. I've seen this expedite the process of hardware migration tremendously. Shortening it to as little as a couple of months from beginner clearo's to high power gear and back to their ideal. If we can do that, get folks that ticket into enjoying everything vape has to offer the better for all of us. And that's why I've devoted 3+ years to this.

    Good luck. :)
     

    zoiDman

    My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Apr 16, 2010
    41,619
    1
    84,742
    So-Cal
    Ahaa, that's the rub isn't it. But yeah it does z and it's an amazing thing for vaping in my estimation. Particularly for new vapers. I've seen this expedite the process of hardware migration tremendously. Shortening it to as little as a couple of months from beginner clearo's to high power gear and back to their ideal. If we can do that, get folks that ticket into enjoying everything vape has to offer the better for all of us. And that's why I've devoted 3+ years to this.

    Good luck. :)

    Yeah... Elements moving around in a Iron Alloy Solid Solution below say Cherry Red is Kinda Amazing.

    Almost seems too good to be True.

    LOL
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MacTechVpr

    MacTechVpr

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Aug 24, 2013
    5,725
    14,411
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    Yeah... Elements moving around in a Iron Alloy Solid Solution below say Cherry Red is Kinda Amazing.

    Almost seems too good to be True.

    LOL

    Good. I like skeptical. They're the most intent at dissemination once they've answered their own doubts.

    And hey, who knows, you may be right. I may be suffering from sensory lag and I am seeing red. :D

    Good luck. :)
     
    Last edited:

    Katya

    ECF Guru
    Supporting Member
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    34,804
    120,147
    SoCal
    I've been wondering for a while what the generations are, hear them mentioned a lot. What gen are ProTanks and KFL's? Is there a definition somewhere?

    I agree with Myrany's post above. Most 510 dripping atties, cartomizers, including CE series, and all cigalikes are first gen. Most if not all of the early clearos (fillerless) like Vivi Novas, Kanger T clearos, Protanks, Aerotanks, etc. are second gen. They all use those small coils, high res wires and lack airflow adjustments.

    Per my understanding, all RBAs (including Kayfun) and "sub-ohm category" tanks are gen 3: higher resistance (thicker) wire, larger coils, better wicking, improved juice flow and air flow.
     

    Mazinny

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Jul 25, 2013
    4,263
    22,713
    NY
    I would guess ProTanks are 2nd gen though they could be the tail end of 1st gen. KFL's are probably 3rd gen I would think.

    I agree with Myrany's post above. Most 510 dripping atties, cartomizers, including CE series, and all cigalikes are first gen. Most if not all of the early clearos (fillerless) like Vivi Novas, Kanger T clearos, Protanks, Aerotanks, etc. are second gen. They all use those small coils, high res wires and lack airflow adjustments.

    Per my understanding, all RBAs (including Kayfun) and "sub-ohm category" tanks are gen 3: higher resistance (thicker) wire, larger coils, better wicking, improved juice flow and air flow.
    I'm not sure that there's such a neat and clear demarcation line. Aerotanks for example did have air flow control, and KFl's didn't. You could ( and many did ) build coils for the KFL using 30g and 32g wire. KFL's came out around the same time as Protanks, if i remember correctly. I do get your point though.
     

    Myrany

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Apr 14, 2013
    8,477
    44,353
    Louisiana
    I'm not sure that there's such a neat and clear demarcation line. Aerotanks for example did have air flow control, and KFl's didn't. You could ( and many did ) build coils for the KFL using 30g and 32g wire. KFL's came out around the same time as Protanks, if i remember correctly. I do get your point though.
    KFL came out way after the first Protanks.
     

    MacTechVpr

    Vaping Master
    ECF Veteran
    Verified Member
    Aug 24, 2013
    5,725
    14,411
    Hollywood (Beach), FL
    I agree with Myrany's post above. Most 510 dripping atties, cartomizers, including CE series, and all cigalikes are first gen. Most if not all of the early clearos (fillerless) like Vivi Novas, Kanger T clearos, Protanks, Aerotanks, etc. are second gen. They all use those small coils, high res wires and lack airflow adjustments.

    Per my understanding, all RBAs (including Kayfun) and "sub-ohm category" tanks are gen 3: higher resistance (thicker) wire, larger coils, better wicking, improved juice flow and air flow.

    I'd define Gen 3 as Post 15 Watt. :D G'luck.
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread