New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

BTW - On that 50/50 you boiled. How much Time did it take to go from the Boiling Point of PG to when you Stopped Testing at 470F ?

I turned it off about 15 minutes after boiling first started, but about 30 minutes from the point where pure PG would have boiled.

 

[zoiDman]

I think where I am at with this, is it is a curious phenomena, but I dont see the value in flushing it to bed. What does that tell us about vaping other than "fractional distillation" does occur, which I dont doubt.

What I am trying to prove with all of this, is that lowering your juice boiling point will allow you to lower your atty temp, potentially being safer if the Wang Study is to be believed.

Yeah... That's why I said it was probably a Veer from the Original Intent.

But you also may have Stumbled onto something that I'm not sure has been consider in this thread. That running a Tank Dry might have a Different effect than Running a Full Tank.

Because if Adding Water or PG to a VG e-liquid to lower the Boiling Point, but at the End of a Tank you are down to More VG, a person might be right back to where they started?

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah... That's why I said it was probably a Veer from the Original Intent.

But you also may have Stumbled onto something that I'm not sure has been consider in this thread. That running a Tank Dry might have a Different effect than Running a Full Tank.

Because if Adding Water or PG to a VG e-Liquid to lower the Boiling Point, but at the End of a Tank you are down to More VG, a person might be right back to where they started?

Yeah, but I dont have the knowledge or equipment to quantify that in any meaningful way.

 

[David Wolf]

Agreed, simply weighing the remnants of the 50/50 test wouldnt tell us much.

I suspect that boiling 50/50 until the temp maxs out, would max out around 550 degrees and wind up with pure VG.

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. The vapor pressure of a Pg/VG mix is between that of pg or VG alone, and I don't know what's happening on a molecular level. Go ask a chemist. By the way, the smoke point is lower than the boiling point of VG from something I read, did you notice vapor before it started boiling?

 

[zoiDman]

Yeah, but I dont have the knowledge or equipment to quantify that in any meaningful way.

I hear you.

I think you are doing an Outstanding Job doing all this out of your Home without the Support and Resources of a Company Lab.

 

[mikepetro]

Maybe, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. The vapor pressure of a Pg/VG mix is between that of pg or VG alone, and I don't know what's happening on a molecular level. Go ask a chemist. By the way, the smoke point is lower than the boiling point of VG from something I read, did you notice vapor before it started boiling?

Yes, it started smoking somewhere in the 300s.

Hehe, like I said, I had a very foggy kitchen.

 

[David Wolf]

Yes, it started smoking somewhere in the 300s.

Hehe, like I said, I had a very foggy kitchen.

Same thing happens with my cooking oil
So we get at least some of our vapor well below the boiling point. No surprise, but interesting.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Same thing happens with my cooking oil
So we get at least some of our vapor well below the boiling point. No surprise, but interesting.

Not a vapor. Smoking means decomposition, almost certainly producing carcinogenic compounds... It's a bit of VG chemistry I do not really understand. A bit I am a bit afraid of.

 

[Ryedan]

No, you can set temperature -- those were the "steps" that were shown on screen. But you can't set anything else like watts.

Thank you Rossum

 

[David Wolf]

Not a vapor. Smoking means decomposition, almost certainly producing carcinogenic compounds... It's a bit of VG chemistry I do not really understand. A bit I am a bit afraid of.

Nah, its vapor. boil water, the water vapor starts before it boils. Quite different than burning

 

[Lessifer]

Just remember, when you're speculating about what this boil test might mean, that boiling a pot of liquid is different from heating a very small amount of liquid in contact with a coil. Also remember that the whole tank of liquid is not brought to temperature while vaping

 

[Eskie]

I think Mike really answered what was the biggest question there was from page 1 on. Was Evolv's data regarding temps accurate, and was the the temp set on a TC board truly the temperature of the coil. We derive the temperature of a coil essentially as we do a thermocouple. The difference is in a thermocouple the wire is protected from the environment, does not interact with whatever liquid or whatever you stuck it in to measure (the wire is sealed in something like glass that conducts the heat to the wire). In vaping, the "thermocouple" wire is also the vaporization wire, so without independent measurement of a coil under normal vape conditions it was hard to say "yeah, 420 F is where we should be for safety".

Mike showed that the temperatures selected and displayed during use on the board were in fact accurate to +/- 10F, which was pretty good in my book and better than expected. Of course the next step would now be with a tank being run in TC can we reproduce the production of aldehydes as shown in the reactor thing at the same temperatures. That is beyond the capable hands of Mike to do and hopefully will be done in the near future.

The boiling point stuff is still fun to read about.

 

[mikepetro]

Just remember, when you're speculating about what this boil test might mean, that boiling a pot of liquid is different from heating a very small amount of liquid in contact with a coil. Also remember that the whole tank of liquid is not brought to temperature while vaping

I agree, I would suspect the amount of distillation will be relative to the surface area that is being heated with respect to the total volume.... and time. A pot on a stove wont reflect a coil in a tank beyond showing that the phenomena exists.

 

[Rossum]

The boiling point stuff is still fun to read about.

I think it's pretty important to this topic. I imagine it's quite difficult to heat our liquids (or the aerosol/vapor) much above their boiling point in one of our atties, even if the wire temperature is somewhat higher. One reason is that we have cool air flow carrying the stuff away from the heat source the moment it's aerosolized, and we know that liquids can't stay liquid above their boiling point.

 

[mikepetro]

I think Mike really answered what was the biggest question there was from page 1 on. Was Evolv's data regarding temps accurate, and was the the temp set on a TC board truly the temperature of the coil. We derive the temperature of a coil essentially as we do a thermocouple. The difference is in a thermocouple the wire is protected from the environment, does not interact with whatever liquid or whatever you stuck it in to measure (the wire is sealed in something like glass that conducts the heat to the wire). In vaping, the "thermocouple" wire is also the vaporization wire, so without independent measurement of a coil under normal vape conditions it was hard to say "yeah, 420 F is where we should be for safety".

Mike showed that the temperatures selected and displayed during use on the board were in fact accurate to +/- 10F, which was pretty good in my book and better than expected. Of course the next step would now be with a tank being run in TC can we reproduce the production of aldehydes as shown in the reactor thing at the same temperatures. That is beyond the capable hands of Mike to do and hopefully will be done in the near future.

The boiling point stuff is still fun to read about.

Yes, I have long had confidence in the DNA line. but just because mine is accurate doesnt mean they all are. And while not the intent of this thread, TC accuracy is dependent on a lot of variables.

• The manufacturer of the board
• How well the mod was constructed, specifically with respect to the solder joints to the 510 connector
• Is it a quality 510 connector, many spring loaded connectors dont have enough tension
  
• Was the mod calibrated to account for internal resistance
  
• The quality of the atty, specifically its internal resistance and stability under heat flux
• The accuracy of the TCR curve being used with respect to the wire
• The quality and consistency of the wire.
• The technique of the user in assembling all of the above

There are a lot factors that must come together to have an accurate TC reading on a mod. A mere couple hundredths of an ohm can make a big difference with some of the wire being used.

Alas, that is the topic of many other threads already scattered about ECF.

Time to go mix the juice for todays trials.....

 

[440BB]

I've taken for granted that a properly designed TC board would be relatively accurate. The type of topper one uses, heat flux, how long of a draw, repeated draws and temps needed to vaporize different mixes are the issues I am getting a better understanding of. I may never use a TC setup, but there is much here for me to draw on to make my preferred setup safer.

With the current dominance of high VG liquids and VG having much lower volatility than PG or water, I can see that TC is very important in that situation. For me, with 2/3 PG and 5% water, I'm thinking that as long as I am vaping at low wattage (very low by today's standards), keep my draws fairly short and not consecutive, that I am likely not reaching or exceeding 400F.

Anybody who's interested in knowing more about their vape than simply "avoid dry hits" has much to gain in this thread. Thanks for putting in the time Mike!

 

[Vaping!!!Jables]

Yes, I have long had confidence in the DNA line. but just because mine is accurate doesnt mean they all are. And while not the intent of this thread, TC accuracy is dependent on a lot of variables.

• The manufacturer of the board
• How well the mod was constructed, specifically with respect to the solder joints to the 510 connector
• Is it a quality 510 connector, many spring loaded connectors dont have enough tension
  
• Was the mod calibrated to account for internal resistance
  
• The quality of the atty, specifically its internal resistance and stability under heat flux
• The accuracy of the TCR curve being used with respect to the wire
• The quality and consistency of the wire.
• The technique of the user in assembling all of the above

There are a lot factors that must come together to have an accurate TC reading on a mod. A mere couple hundredths of an ohm can make a big difference with some of the wire being used.

Alas, that is the topic of many other threads already scattered about ECF.

Time to go mix the juice for todays trials.....

Thanks I really appreciate this thread.[emoji16]

Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk

 

[Vaping!!!Jables]

I think Mike really answered what was the biggest question there was from page 1 on. Was Evolv's data regarding temps accurate, and was the the temp set on a TC board truly the temperature of the coil. We derive the temperature of a coil essentially as we do a thermocouple. The difference is in a thermocouple the wire is protected from the environment, does not interact with whatever liquid or whatever you stuck it in to measure (the wire is sealed in something like glass that conducts the heat to the wire). In vaping, the "thermocouple" wire is also the vaporization wire, so without independent measurement of a coil under normal vape conditions it was hard to say "yeah, 420 F is where we should be for safety".

Mike showed that the temperatures selected and displayed during use on the board were in fact accurate to +/- 10F, which was pretty good in my book and better than expected. Of course the next step would now be with a tank being run in TC can we reproduce the production of aldehydes as shown in the reactor thing at the same temperatures. That is beyond the capable hands of Mike to do and hopefully will be done in the near future.

The boiling point stuff is still fun to read about.

Right on[emoji100]

Sent from my HTC Desire 626s using Tapatalk

 

[David Wolf]

I think Mike really answered what was the biggest question there was from page 1 on. Was Evolv's data regarding temps accurate, and was the the temp set on a TC board truly the temperature of the coil. We derive the temperature of a coil essentially as we do a thermocouple. The difference is in a thermocouple the wire is protected from the environment, does not interact with whatever liquid or whatever you stuck it in to measure (the wire is sealed in something like glass that conducts the heat to the wire). In vaping, the "thermocouple" wire is also the vaporization wire, so without independent measurement of a coil under normal vape conditions it was hard to say "yeah, 420 F is where we should be for safety".

Mike showed that the temperatures selected and displayed during use on the board were in fact accurate to +/- 10F, which was pretty good in my book and better than expected. Of course the next step would now be with a tank being run in TC can we reproduce the production of aldehydes as shown in the reactor thing at the same temperatures. That is beyond the capable hands of Mike to do and hopefully will be done in the near future.

The boiling point stuff is still fun to read about.

Common sense and engineering logic tell me that a coil at 450 deg F with a pg/VG wetted wick in a tank will not produce the same level of aldehydes as the reactor glass wetted with pg/VG . Why? Because the whole wick isn't at 450 deg F while the whole reactor glass WAS at 450 deg F. And that explains why most vaping devices tested in other studies didn't produce high levels of aldehydes even at higher power levels. The answer as you, I, and others have stated is to test actual devices.

 

[GeorgeS]

I think for the most part many/most of my questions have already been answered.

• Two of the internet reviewers test for TC accuracy so it is not surprising that some device types are fairly (+/- 10F) accurate. We already knew this. Making use of cotton singe and water boil tests confirm the tested accuracy (or lack there of) of different types of mods.
  
• What we did not know (until Mike did some testing) was how much temperature difference we might find between the center winding of a coil and the ends. (thanks Mike!)
• I use VG based Nicotine with VG. As some may believe that the boiling point of VG needs to be reached for ANY vapor (or usable amount) to be produced I've often thought (found) that the boiling point is the maximum temperature and usage history/experience has shown that 'usable' amounts of vapor can be produced in the 300-400F range.
  
• I have not qualms with the "reactor tests" posted on the first page. I think they clearly show that if you heat solution "X" up to "Y" temperature you'll likely (or not!) get "Z" nasties developed.

While over the years I've gotten into the habit of adding 5-33% H2O (and sometimes 66%) to VG to vape, my mods are generally always set in the 380-400F range. I have noticed that the higher the H2O content, the lower the temperature needs to be set to stay out of a 'singed taste' zone.