New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[David Wolf]

Yes, that's for sure. Coil gunk and it's mass/insulator are a far more significant factors. Just to say that distillation is occurring should not be confused with saying that it happening in a significant, tasteable, or even measurable, way, at least within a few ml tank. Now a 20ml Modfather? you might be able to measure the effect on that.

I've found that running a tank a long time with many refills at ~20% remaining and finding over time that the liquid does thicken and dumping it to wash the tank at that point. So it's not completely insignificant.

Agree with much of what you said, though I believe a large part of the reason my 80PG/20VG (not a lot of VG to thicken!) darkens and thickens is the heated/baked juice from the wick seeping back into the tank- I've watched it do that with Nautilus coils as the tank runs low.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Agree with much of what you said, though I believe a large part of the reason my 80PG/20VG (not a lot of VG to thicken!) darkens and thickens is the heated/baked juice from the wick seeping back into the tank- I've watched it do that with Nautilus coils as the tank runs low.

From the other hand, I do not see any significant darkening/thickening for my 50/50 juice. But I use no more than 1% of flavorings. So, may be it's just decomposition of flavorings? I do not know.

 

[David Wolf]

No one is saying you should change your vaping habit. But if there is evidence that a vaping style of controlled temperatures with sufficient airflow will provide a slightly safer, however small that is, vape, shouldn't individual vapers then make an informed decision about how they prefer to go about it?

It's not about right or wrong. It's about understanding harm reduction, including recognizing the law of decreasing returns. In fact slight alterations in vaping habits may not make much of a difference at all.

When I see that evidence using actual vaping devices I might change my style. So far it's all interpretive and a lot of non-scientific extrapolation and assumptions in this thread. Studies show higher aldehydes at higher powers in some devices (though very low levels and small increases in devices like the Nautilus and Subtank mini), then this study of the temperatures at which Pg and VG in a tube release aldehydes, and folks take off into the wild blue speculative yonder. I vape low power, don't chain vape, my vapor is mildly warm so no fear here. I'm waiting on the study that shows vaping a gunked up coil gives off low levels aldehydes at 420 deg F coil temperature (don't be surprised if it does and you heard it here first), since there's already evidence coil gunk increases aldehydes in vaping devices- I speculate right back at ya haha. I replace my coils every few days along with my wicks. I'm good to go.

 

[mikepetro]

OK, so I put my Mr Wizard hat back on and started playing with boiling points.

Clamped a Type-K thermocouple to the side of the pot in such a way that it is nicely submerged in a 100ml sample, and the thermocouple is completely suspended in the liquid, not touching the sides of the pot anywhere.

Boiled some water to test it:

Boiled some pure PG:


Boiled some pure VG:


Boiled a 50/50 mix. Now this is where it gets curious. The solution came to a full boil at 407 degrees, BUT it kept rising in temp after that!! I finally turned the heat off at around 470.

I wonder if the PG was just boiling off and leaving a solution high in VG with an ever increasing boiling point????

 

[Alien Traveler]

Should this give people using CE4 type clearomizers cause for concern? ..

I was not following this thread, so I am surprised to see a lot of blame falling on CE4. Looks suspictious (Big Vape thing?) Can somebody please direct me to a source? (138 pages of the thread are a bit too much to look through...)

 

[440BB]

I wonder if the PG was just boiling off and leaving a solution high in VG with an ever increasing boiling point????

With what we know so far it certainly suggests it.

 

[mikepetro]

I was not following this thread, so I am surprised to see a lot of blame falling on CE4. Looks suspictious (Big Vape thing?) Can somebody please direct me to a source? (138 pages of the thread are a bit too much to look through...)

Source was Kurt (here on ECF)

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder if the PG was just boiling off and leaving a solution high in VG with an ever increasing boiling point????

Can you Weigh the Volume of the 50/50 before you boil it?

Then Boil it until the Temp Max's Out.

Then Weigh and then Measure the Volume of what is Left?

 

[David Wolf]

OK, so I put my Mr Wizard hat back on and started playing with boiling points.

Clamped a Type-K thermocouple to the side of the pot in such a way that it is nicely submerged in a 100ml sample, and the thermocouple is completely suspended in the liquid, not touching the sides of the pot anywhere.

Boiled some water to test it:
View attachment 654587


Boiled some pure PG:
View attachment 654589

Boiled some pure VG:
View attachment 654591

Boiled a 50/50 mix. Now this is where it gets curious. The solution came to a full boil at 407 degrees, BUT it kept rising in temp after that!! I finally turned the heat off at around 470.

I wonder if the PG was just boiling off and leaving a solution high in VG with an ever increasing boiling point????

View attachment 654593

Good test, good question.

 

[mikepetro]

Can you Weigh the Volume of the 50/50 before you boil it?

Then Boil it until the Temp Max's Out.

Then Weigh and then Measure the Volume of what is Left?

I could, I guess. I will try it with the 50/50 w nic test I will do tomorrow.

I can tell you that, even with the exhaust fan on full blast, these tests gave off a lot of vapor. Your wives would shut you down if they saw it. Fogged up the whole kitchen.

 

[David Wolf]

Can you Weigh the Volume of the 50/50 before you boil it?

Then Boil it until the Temp Max's Out.

Then Weigh and then Measure the Volume of what is Left?

If he does that he's going to need a control to ensure the results are interpreted correctly, by weighing pure pg, recording temperature, boiling it, then weighing again at after it cools to the previous temperature- any change? Then repeat with VG. Then repeat with 50/50. Only then would I have confidence in interpreting the results of what the final pg/VG ratio is. (All weight per unit volume of course)

 

[mikepetro]

If he does that he's going to need a control to ensure the results are interpreted correctly, by weighing purge pg, and recording temperature, boiling it then weighing again at after it coils to the precious temperature- any change? Then repeat with VG. Then repeat with 50/50. Only them would I have confidence in interpreting the results of what the final pg/VG ratio is.

Agreed, simply weighing the remnants of the 50/50 test wouldnt tell us much.

I suspect that boiling 50/50 until the temp maxs out, would max out around 550 degrees and wind up with pure VG.

 

[sorrynomore]

Thanks Mike and all others who have contributed to this thread,a very interesting thread indeed!

 

[Alien Traveler]

Source was Kurt (here on ECF)

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

Thanks a lot.
I hate videos, but I managed (after many clicks) to find a relevant piece.
In short: I do not believe. It is easy to produce harmful things utilizing e-cigarette. Very easy. I'd better wait for confirmation.
I never used CE4, but I believe it is something similar to iClear 16, which never gave me any dry hits. So...

 

[zoiDman]

If he does that he's going to need a control to ensure the results are interpreted correctly, by weighing pure pg, recording temperature, boiling it, then weighing again at after it cools to the previous temperature- any change? Then repeat with VG. Then repeat with 50/50. Only then would I have confidence in interpreting the results of what the final pg/VG ratio is. (All weight per unit volume of course)

Agreed, simply weighing the remnants of the 50/50 test wouldnt tell us much.

I suspect that boiling 50/50 until the temp maxs out, would max out around 550 degrees and wind up with pure VG.

Correct. If you just Weigh the Boiled Results, it Isn't going to tell you anything. The Volume would also Need to be Measured.

If the Temp Max's out at 550, then it sounds like All the PG is going to be Boiled Off. And what should be left is basically VG.

The Weigh per Volume of the Result at that point should be Very Close to the Specific Gravity of VG.

 

[mikepetro]

Correct. If you just Weigh the Boiled Results, it Isn't going to tell you anything. The Volume would also Need to be Measured.

If the Temp Max's out at 550, then it sounds like All the PG is going to be Boiled Off. And what should be left is basically VG.

The Weigh per Volume of the Result at that point should be Very Close to the Specific Gravity of VG.

LOL, if it maxs out at 550, I dont need to weigh it, I know its damn near pure VG.

 

[go_player]

I was not following this thread, so I am surprised to see a lot of blame falling on CE4. Looks suspictious (Big Vape thing?) Can somebody please direct me to a source? (138 pages of the thread are a bit too much to look through...)

Much of the relevant information is in the first page of this thread. It's wise to view findings with a certain amount of skepticism, but these are easily replicated quantitative findings so until someone finds otherwise I'll trust them. I don't see any any reason to believe that they are the product of some grand conspiracy. Is Big Vape a thing yet?

There are some good reasons to be a bit suspicious of the CE4/iClear-16 types. Whether or not those reasons should concern you as a user of them is an open question, I think.

 

[zoiDman]

LOL, if it maxs out at 550, I dont need to weigh it, I know its damn near pure VG.

What would Really be Cool is to collect Data Points in-between the Boiling Point of PG and where the Temp Max's out.

But this is Probably veering from the Original Intent. And although doing Curve Fitting in Excel is Fun. It would be a Lot of work just to get a Curve like that one that Guy on Reddit posted.

 

[mikepetro]

Correct. If you just Weigh the Boiled Results, it Isn't going to tell you anything. The Volume would also Need to be Measured.

If the Temp Max's out at 550, then it sounds like All the PG is going to be Boiled Off. And what should be left is basically VG.

The Weigh per Volume of the Result at that point should be Very Close to the Specific Gravity of VG.

What would Really be Cool is to collect Data Points in-between the Boiling Point of PG and where the Temp Max's out.

But this is Probably veering from the Original Intent. And although doing Curve Fitting in Excel is Fun. It would be a Lot of work just to get a Curve like that one that Guy on Reddit posted.

I think where I am at with this, is it is a curious phenomena, but I dont see the value in flushing it to bed. What does that tell us about vaping other than "fractional distillation" does occur, which I dont doubt.

What I am trying to prove with all of this, is that lowering your juice boiling point will allow you to lower your atty temp, potentially being safer if the Wang Study is to be believed.

 

[zoiDman]

LOL, if it maxs out at 550, I dont need to weigh it, I know its damn near pure VG.

BTW - On that 50/50 you boiled. How much Time did it take to go from the Boiling Point of PG to when you Stopped Testing at 470F ?