New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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Honestly, what's your obsession with this thread. Haven't you promised before to ignore the thread ? Wasn't it just two weeks ago that you said you're going to ignore this thread one more time ?
So, back on track to the thread topic - temperatures
Thank you so much for doing these tests Mike.
Some of (well, most of) the info is really surprising !
I have learned so much from what you are doing.
Thank you so much for doing these tests Mike.
Some of (well, most of) the info is really surprising !
I have learned so much from what you are doing.
If you meant my post, sorry i didn't get to your previous post before i responded. I was just annoyed.
i like being aware of issues,, even ones i dont like because its real D....m annoying when i get a speech/lecture on how bad vaping is for me............if i hear that my left leg will fall off 1 more time..........
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I don't think i have thanked you directly for what you're doing. Greatly Appreciated. I have made some changes since this thread started ( dialed back on the power a bit, used 26g wire instead of 28, stopped chain vaping as much etc ... ) and the quality of my vape hasn't suffered. I have also ordered some SS wire and will be experimenting with t.c pretty soon.
Well, except them damn squonkers, nothing more than a bunch of bottom feeder.s......
And lest anyone think I am being serious, this is a post I made last Friday on another group.
mikepetro said:
Thanks for the offer mike but I live in the Philippines and sending an atty will take forever and probably have some customs duties. Just like when I order an atty from the US it takes about 2 to 3 months. I don't think you will have a problem getting a probe in an RDA though.
Well, except them damn squonkers, nothing more than a bunch of bottom feeder.s......
And lest anyone think I am being serious, this is a post I made last Friday on another group.
Yeah, i actually learned how to build on those things. I used 29g kanthel ( 10 wraps ) and used the AFC from the PT3. I have never used the Nautilus either, but i do know they have vertical coils with cotton on the outside of the coil. Don't know if that has a bearing on coil temperature.Stock PT coils were something like 32 gauge wicked with silica. Remember how much better we were able to make them by rebuilding them with 30 gauge and wicking them with cotton?
I don't know what the Nautilus coils were made of. I never had anything that use them 'cause I had moved on to Kayfuns before they caught on.
I get that it 'feels' like some of our vaping styles are being attacked. I have to be honest, when this thread started, I felt like mine was also.
The reality is that there was a need to know just what temperature our devices were putting out since most do not have temperature control.
Maybe, with Mike's data, a new standard can be implemented. Not necessarily having a requirement of only temp control devices but more a chart that can be referenced.
We have the standard chart of #wraps = ohm. Plus power range needed to make that equation work. Maybe a new chart that gives the variable as to what temp, high and low, may be achieved with that build and power.
I'm all for safety but I am for individuality and choosing our own risk. I get that when it comes to new vapers, and older ones that don't frequent forums if ever, they do not have access to this much information.
Such a conundrum.
What Mike is doing is honorable and basically, trying to look out for us all. All he is doing is testing and gathering facts. Just the same as Mooch is doing in regards to batteries. And Kurt is doing for liquids.
I truly thank God for these individuals because I sure wouldn't have a clue about any of this otherwise.
Another point, would you rather the government do this? Um, just no.
The reality is that there was a need to know just what temperature our devices were putting out since most do not have temperature control.
Maybe, with Mike's data, a new standard can be implemented. Not necessarily having a requirement of only temp control devices but more a chart that can be referenced.
We have the standard chart of #wraps = ohm. Plus power range needed to make that equation work. Maybe a new chart that gives the variable as to what temp, high and low, may be achieved with that build and power.
I'm all for safety but I am for individuality and choosing our own risk. I get that when it comes to new vapers, and older ones that don't frequent forums if ever, they do not have access to this much information.
Such a conundrum.
What Mike is doing is honorable and basically, trying to look out for us all. All he is doing is testing and gathering facts. Just the same as Mooch is doing in regards to batteries. And Kurt is doing for liquids.
I truly thank God for these individuals because I sure wouldn't have a clue about any of this otherwise.
Another point, would you rather the government do this? Um, just no.
Well said.
More to the point, i'd trust individuals doing independent research more than government efforts in any case.
T
More to the point, i'd trust individuals doing independent research more than government efforts in any case.
T
Can someone give me some brief outlines about this?
I was going to go 316SS at 28 gauge, and aim for the lowest temp I can get away with.
Theory being that a slightly higher resistance and lower mass is easier for the electronics to control accurately.
I was going to go 316SS at 28 gauge, and aim for the lowest temp I can get away with.
Theory being that a slightly higher resistance and lower mass is easier for the electronics to control accurately.
Let's all remember how this thread started, and Mike got stuck spending an awful lot of his own time and money on this.
There was an e cig meeting. At that forum, the work by Wang regarding thermal breakdown products was referenced. Then there was a presentation by Evolv using all sorts of data from ecig stats claiming vapers may vape too hot and TC was the answer. Some of us were less than satisfied with the actual data presented.
The big question was, is it reasonable to assume the temperature you set on a mod is the temperature the coil actually works at as there are lots of variables involved? Without actual data (Evolv never actually measured the coil temp separate from monitoring the resistance, in other words, treating the coil as both heat source and thermocouple) there was a theoretical debate about coil temperatures that ranged from meteorological information to quantum physics. After 50 pages making no real progress Mike stepped up to the plate and figured out a way of measuring the temp directly with small thermocouples.
Mike has been able to answer important questions, including yes, the temps set for a particular TC board (only tested a DNA board, no info on lots of others out there) were accurate to +/- 10F. Mike then extended it to look at other wattage settings and different coil types. This was all really useful info. He even extended it to the effects of different airflows, from low to high and confirmed high airflow lowered coil temps which might seem intuitive, but nice to real data confirm it.
Al of this work fails to complete the final piece of an answer for us vapers. We know how stuff breaks down in a reactor (Wang). We know temps when vaping can get higher than expected without TC (Mike, and inferences by Evolv). Now what needs to be done is measuring thermal breakdown products generated by actual coils in actual tank under actual conditions a vaper would use at different temperatures. From the start, Mike stated he could not perform that analysis, but did produce the temp data to provide that foundation of whether or not we really were vaporizing e liquid at temperatures achieved in a thermal reactor.
So Mike provided the community with valuable information and guidance that until the final step is done, breakdown products at different temp setting from real life setups, it is reasonable for a vaper to choose to keep their temperatures a bit lower than they might have expected (especially in wattage/power users). There is also enough data provide by Mike to suggest that a vaper might well not change their vape pattern, as without a test of both breakdown products at measured temperatures from actual coils simultaneously, the risk remains theoretical and it's up to the vaper how to proceed.
This testing should have properly been done by someone like Evolv with the resources and capital to test their own equipment, rather than trying to infer temperatures from e cig stat data. But they didn't so Mike did it for us. We owe a debt of gratitude to Mike for all the time, money, and effort placed into this.
There was an e cig meeting. At that forum, the work by Wang regarding thermal breakdown products was referenced. Then there was a presentation by Evolv using all sorts of data from ecig stats claiming vapers may vape too hot and TC was the answer. Some of us were less than satisfied with the actual data presented.
The big question was, is it reasonable to assume the temperature you set on a mod is the temperature the coil actually works at as there are lots of variables involved? Without actual data (Evolv never actually measured the coil temp separate from monitoring the resistance, in other words, treating the coil as both heat source and thermocouple) there was a theoretical debate about coil temperatures that ranged from meteorological information to quantum physics. After 50 pages making no real progress Mike stepped up to the plate and figured out a way of measuring the temp directly with small thermocouples.
Mike has been able to answer important questions, including yes, the temps set for a particular TC board (only tested a DNA board, no info on lots of others out there) were accurate to +/- 10F. Mike then extended it to look at other wattage settings and different coil types. This was all really useful info. He even extended it to the effects of different airflows, from low to high and confirmed high airflow lowered coil temps which might seem intuitive, but nice to real data confirm it.
Al of this work fails to complete the final piece of an answer for us vapers. We know how stuff breaks down in a reactor (Wang). We know temps when vaping can get higher than expected without TC (Mike, and inferences by Evolv). Now what needs to be done is measuring thermal breakdown products generated by actual coils in actual tank under actual conditions a vaper would use at different temperatures. From the start, Mike stated he could not perform that analysis, but did produce the temp data to provide that foundation of whether or not we really were vaporizing e liquid at temperatures achieved in a thermal reactor.
So Mike provided the community with valuable information and guidance that until the final step is done, breakdown products at different temp setting from real life setups, it is reasonable for a vaper to choose to keep their temperatures a bit lower than they might have expected (especially in wattage/power users). There is also enough data provide by Mike to suggest that a vaper might well not change their vape pattern, as without a test of both breakdown products at measured temperatures from actual coils simultaneously, the risk remains theoretical and it's up to the vaper how to proceed.
This testing should have properly been done by someone like Evolv with the resources and capital to test their own equipment, rather than trying to infer temperatures from e cig stat data. But they didn't so Mike did it for us. We owe a debt of gratitude to Mike for all the time, money, and effort placed into this.
That's really how I Feel about all this.
An Individual, who does Not have a Monetary or Political agenda, spending their own Time and Money to bring Real World Information to the Vaping Community.
Information is Power. And Informed Choices are based on being Informed.
If doing something Incredibly Simple as adding an eyedropper full of Water to a Bottle of e-Liquid could make for a potentially "Safer" e-Liquid, would people at Least want to Know This?
I quit Smoking because I was looking for Harm Reduction. If there are things I can do which make e-Cigarette use even Less Harmful than Smoking, I'm not sure why I (or Anyone) would not at least Try them?
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