New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[zoiDman]

... I am sure BT knows a heck of a lot about it, but they have never been known to share their secrets.

I don't think I would Limit this to just BT.

 

[Eskie]

It is interesting that when we were smokers, we never worried about measuring all the chemicals being released and how much we might be inhaling. We knew they were bad for us, but it didn't stop us.

 

[440BB]

I suppose most of us had developed a strong sense of denial about smoking. How much of that denial we've retained for vaping is the question. Most of us agree that vaping is far safer than smoking and for many smokers or former smokers that is enough. That some want to know nothing more than that and challenge any further look into the remaining risks is a reflection of that denial IMO.

 

[TJVapes]

It is interesting that when we were smokers, we never worried about measuring all the chemicals being released and how much we might be inhaling. We knew they were bad for us, but it didn't stop us.

That's why BT likes to hook them while their young before they learn to worry and while they still feeling invincible. By the time you're old enough to know better, you're like screwit done messed that up, lol.

I mixed her some juice that claims to be diacetyl free and told her if her coils are SS to put it under 450 and then we'll read more. She also got a battery lecture. I worry more about that because younguns (20s) are just smart enough to be dangerous.

 

[Ca Ike]

I suppose most of us had developed a strong sense of denial about smoking. How much of that denial we've retained for vaping is the question. Most of us agree that vaping is far safer than smoking and for many smokers or former smokers that is enough. That some want to know nothing more than that and challenge any further look into the remaining risks is a reflection of that denial IMO.

There's very little if any denial at all. Most smokers just don't really care. There's also no denial of possible risks with vaping as you can see by reading tons of posts all over different vaping forums. Just a lot of "I know it's magnitudes safer, has been shown to be, and that's enough for me".

The denial you probably see is coming more from the defensive posture smokers are force to take due to the ostracizing we have had to deal with for years and now us vapers are having to take that same defensive posture for the exact same reasons we did as smokers.

I had one of the board members of tobacco free CA tell me after giving him all the positive study data out there on vaping and nicotine and I quote...

" See, you know we are right or you wouldn't be doing all this research yourselves. You are just too ignorant to understand that it's all bad so people like me have to stop you from killing yourselves and those that come into contact with your vaping"

 

[zoiDman]

It is interesting that when we were smokers, we never worried about measuring all the chemicals being released and how much we might be inhaling. We knew they were bad for us, but it didn't stop us.

I can Only speak for myself. But when I Smoked, I was Very Worried about what I was putting into My Body.

But the Sad Reality was I couldn't Quit.

Or more precisely, I could Quit. But I Couldn't Stay Quit for any Extended period of time.

 

[mikepetro]

That's why BT likes to hook them while their young before they learn to worry and while they still feeling invincible. By the time you're old enough to know better, you're like screwit done messed that up, lol.

I mixed her some juice that claims to be diacetyl free and told her if her coils are SS to put it under 450 and then we'll read more. She also got a battery lecture. I worry more about that because younguns (20s) are just smart enough to be dangerous.

Kudos to you for doing the battery lecture!!!!

 

[mikepetro]

There's very little if any denial at all. Most smokers just don't really care. There's also no denial of possible risks with vaping as you can see by reading tons of posts all over different vaping forums. Just a lot of "I know it's magnitudes safer, has been shown to be, and that's enough for me".

The denial you probably see is coming more from the defensive posture smokers are force to take due to the ostracizing we have had to deal with for years and now us vapers are having to take that same defensive posture for the exact same reasons we did as smokers.

I had one of the board members of tobacco free CA tell me after giving him all the positive study data out there on vaping and nicotine and I quote...

" See, you know we are right or you wouldn't be doing all this research yourselves. You are just too ignorant to understand that it's all bad so people like me have to stop you from killing yourselves and those that come into contact with your vaping"

My ignorant azz would probably be in jail.... after I decked the guy!

 

[mikepetro]

I can Only speak for myself. But when I Smoked, I was Very Worried about what I was putting into My Body.

But the Sad Reality was I couldn't Quit.

Or more precisely, I could Quit. But I Couldn't Stay Quit for any Extended period of time.

Ditto ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[TJVapes]

I had one of the board members of tobacco free CA tell me after giving him all the positive study data out there on vaping and nicotine and I quote...

" See, you know we are right or you wouldn't be doing all this research yourselves. You are just too ignorant to understand that it's all bad so people like me have to stop you from killing yourselves and those that come into contact with your vaping"

Did you flip him off and blow vape in his face?

That's where I am for the moment, just walking around flyin the bird.

 

[Ryedan]

Gunks my coil too much, I have gotten lazy, vape mostly unflavored these days, coils last MUCH longer.

You are the most 'un-lazy' vaper I know Mike

 

[Ryedan]

I had one of the board members of tobacco free CA tell me after giving him all the positive study data out there on vaping and nicotine and I quote...

" See, you know we are right or you wouldn't be doing all this research yourselves. You are just too ignorant to understand that it's all bad so people like me have to stop you from killing yourselves and those that come into contact with your vaping"

I don't know if his comment came from his politics or his ignorance, but either way that much BS is just sad. The unfortunate thing is this person has some influence on smokers and vapers

 

[mikepetro]

This was a PM I got, I am sharing it with his permission.

Two things leave me confused. First, in your notes, the change of voltage firing the atty isn't what I've experienced, as I believe it only test fires when checking resistance. Not a big deal for the testing though.
I based that on the fact that every time I changed voltage setting, I could see the thermocouple meter reading jump up over 100 degrees while I was doing it.

Second, after looking at the data and getting a sense that low voltage/wattage can potentially keep one under 400F on the Nova, the reference to the CE4 test seems to contradict the assumption that 400F may be a reasonable upper limit.
I think you are mixing up the two studies here.

• The WANG study contends that above 410 you get nasties, not correlated to any particular atty, just a function of temperature alone.
• The Kurt study measured nasties at ANY power level, ie irregardless of temperature, implying atty design as the issue.
  • I never proposed that a top coil atty had any safe temp
  • Since it is more than just temp alone in those attys creating the nasties, I wonder if it has something to do with the silica. Maybe silica doesnt "flow" enough mid hit to keep the coil wet, what if it drys out the section of wick under the coil (mid hit) and the wick doesnt replenish it fast enough? Maybe silica gives off nasties of its own. The lower threshold for nasties in these atties could also very well be a juice supply problem, maybe silica is just not the right material.
    • I did some testing on this a while back. Wicks have two different properties that we actually care about. Capillary action, and flow.
    • Capillary action is how fast/far a material can carry a liquid vertically without further assistance. See this video I did on the Capillary action of ceramic wicks back in the genny days:
    • Flow is how fast a material can carry a liquid if tilted correctly. For example back in the Genny days we experimented with twisted SS cable wicks (like clothes line wire). What we found is they worked GREAT because they flowed a lot of juice, but they had zero capillary action. So in order to use them you had to maintain the "genny tilt" while hitting to keep the wire submerged and flowing.

I am left wondering if extrapolating the CE4 to other toppers is realistic or comparing apples and oranges, or whether 400F is irrelevant if "any power level" was considered harmful.
I think lumping all top coil attys into the "Gen 2" bucket is a reasonable position, heck, thats what Kurt did. Now I am sure there will be some differences between them, heck they were some difference between 2 of your identical coils. I also suspect that that there is no safe temp on any top coil atty design, unless you mod the coil with other materials. For example, folks reported much better performance with cotton and larger wire on the bottom coils like the EVods, which were also considered unsafe by Kurt when stock.
(Idea: what if you loosely stuff the entire tank with rayon fiber, kind of like a big carto?)
I did something like this back in the Taifun days and worked extremely well:
View attachment 661017

It leaves me also wondering whether TC is the priority or topper/coil design. Should TC for kanthal become accurate and available, it wouldn't matter for all top and some bottom coil toppers (any second generation) based on Kurt's conclusion.
True, the problem is the atty design, first and foremost. And I still suspect silica as being inadequate.

I now wish I had sent you a few CE4's to dissect so we could find out about their temp levels. Novas aren't really available any more while CE4's remain on the market. Then again, Kurt's "any power level" conclusion implies it is an exercise in futility.
My own personal experience with those thing, was that the bigger the tank, the worse the problems got. I really think it is a "juice supply" issue, but that is just an educated guess. I also think "vacuum" comes into play in making newer designs safer. When you draw you create enough vacuum to help pull the juice into the atty chamber. Those top coil designs didnt do that to any appreciable degree.

The Nova temp results are in line with my expectations but the blanket statements about second generation devices undermine my new understanding of the relationship between temps, heat flux, air flow, liquid mix and the "nasties".
Those were Kurt's conclusions, and he had the equipment to measure the nasties. All I can do is measure temps.

OK, so the "capillary" action of silica vs modern alternatives was killing me, couldnt get it out of my head all day. So whats a geek to do? TEST!

• Stock silica from a VV nova was 5cm long and weighed 0.09g
• I cut a length of rayon to match, 5cm long and 0.09g in weight
• Mixed some 50/50 pg/vg juice with a dab of pro food coloring
• Placed each sample inside of an identical clear tube
• Placed both tubes in a beaker and added juice

I am not a videographer, and this is a new phone so forgive the poor quality. It shows the start of the test, but I accidentally cut the camera off before it was finished.



So I waited a few minutes and took a still pic:

Notice the juice had barely got about half way up the silica, but if you looked from top down you could see the juice had reached the very top of the rayon.

So I weighed the juice content of each wick since I knew the tare weights.

• Silica wick contained 0.33g of liquid
• Rayon wick contained 1.2g of liquid

The poor performance of silica might well be the culprit in the Gen 2 tests performed by Dr Kurt. I.e. coil was being starved for juice.

 

[Robino1]

OJK, so the "capillary" action of silica vs modern alternatives was killing me, couldnt get it out of my head all day. So whats a geek to do? TEST!

• Stock silica from a VV nova was 5cm long and weighed 0.09g
• I cut a length of rayon to match, 5cm long and 0.09g in weight
• Mixed some 50/50 pg/vg juice with a dab of pro food coloring
• Placed each sample inside of an identical clear tube
• Placed both tubes in a beaker and added juice

I am not a videographer, and this is a new phone so forgive the poor quality. It shows the start of the test, but I accidentally cut the camera off before it was finished.



So I waited a few minutes and took a still pic:

Notice the juice had barely got about half way up the silica, but if you looked from top down you could see the juice had reached the very top of the rayon.

So I weighed the juice content of each wick since I knew the tare weights.

• Silica wick contained 0.33g of liquid
• Rayon wick contained 1.2g of liquid

The poor performance of silica might well be the culprit in the Gen 2 tests performed by Dr Kurt. I.e. coil was being starved for juice.

Whoa! That really makes more sense now. I was toying with the idea of using silica because sometimes it is just too damn hard to get the wicking just right.

That idea was just tossed out the window...never to return!!!!

That is amazing!

 

[GaryInTexas]

Mike lay off the coffee and watch an old movie, relax. Back in the old days vaping was fun. This is beginning to look a lot like work.

 

[mikepetro]

Mike lay off the coffee and watch an old movie, relax. Back in the old days vaping was fun. This is beginning to look a lot like work.

Its still fun!

The more I understand the "facts" about vaping, the better I can make my builds. I also find a lot of personal value in proving things vs some of the malarkey that gets tossed around in these circles.

 

[awsum140]

Hey Mike, you've been in VA too long. I hear a little drawl coming in there I spent a year working with two Brits. When I left that job everyone though I was British! If you ever lose your regular job, look into being a narrator, great voice!

I knew rayon was superior to silica, just never realized just HOW superior. Thanks, again, for yet another "Myth Buster" demonstration.

 

[Mazinny]

OK, so the "capillary" action of silica vs modern alternatives was killing me, couldnt get it out of my head all day. So whats a geek to do? TEST!

• Stock silica from a VV nova was 5cm long and weighed 0.09g
• I cut a length of rayon to match, 5cm long and 0.09g in weight
• Mixed some 50/50 pg/vg juice with a dab of pro food coloring
• Placed each sample inside of an identical clear tube
• Placed both tubes in a beaker and added juice

I am not a videographer, and this is a new phone so forgive the poor quality. It shows the start of the test, but I accidentally cut the camera off before it was finished.



So I waited a few minutes and took a still pic:

Notice the juice had barely got about half way up the silica, but if you looked from top down you could see the juice had reached the very top of the rayon.

So I weighed the juice content of each wick since I knew the tare weights.

• Silica wick contained 0.33g of liquid
• Rayon wick contained 1.2g of liquid

The poor performance of silica might well be the culprit in the Gen 2 tests performed by Dr Kurt. I.e. coil was being starved for juice.

Here's something similar PBusardo did a few years ago. No silica though. Hemp vs. rayon vs. Japanese cotton vs. organic cotton balls. Obviously the video is much longer than yours !

 

[mikepetro]

Here's something similar PBusardo did a few years ago. No silica though. Hemp vs. rayon vs. Japanese cotton vs. organic cotton balls. Obviously the video is much longer than yours !

Heck, if he just says "Hello" it would be longer than any three of my posts combined!

 

[mikepetro]

I knew rayon outperformed most anything popular now. The main thing I was after was an explanation of why Dr Kurts Gen 2 tests came out so bad. This was just a good demo of how poor the silica stuff really is.

Actually, I think the poor Gen 2 results are a combination of poor silica performance, and the lack of vacuum in a top coil design. The silica thing was obvious in the demo. But think about almost all current attys, they almost all pull a vacuum in the atty chamber as you draw, which helps "pull" juice into the chamber. Thats something that top coil designs dont do.