New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

I came up with an idea. Sadly a lot of vape shops are closing their doors these days. What if I came up with a well drafted letter asking for donations for my testing? Sent only to shops closing their doors. In that case I probably should cover their shipping fees though.

Since they are closing I wouldn't see any particular "conflict of interest" involved. Nothing that would affect the credibility of the testing, etc..

Opinions?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[homeuser6]

Looking at this on a tablet, out of town rest of the week.

What is 660471?

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440bbs' vivi nova report

 

[Layzee Vaper]

I came up with an idea. Sadly a lot of vape shops are closing their doors these days. What if I came up with a well drafted letter asking for donations for my testing? Sent only to shops closing their doors. In that case I probably should cover their shipping fees though.

Since they are closing I wouldn't see any particular "conflict of interest" involved. Nothing that would affect the credibility of the testing, etc..

Opinions?

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

Would have no problem with that, but why not go for broke?

Just contact all of the manufactures and suppliers here on ECF, asking for a donation for proper independent lab testing of the vapour produced at various temperatures. Similar to the lab tests that raised this issue in the first place.

Just make it clear that you are contacting everyone in the industry, and that those who contribute will be added to a list at the top of the thread. (It would be kind of interesting to see who donated and who did not)

They are all making plenty out of this..... It's time to put some pressure on them to stand up and be counted.

I am sure a fair few of the ordinary membership would make a donation too. I know I would.

It's in every bodies interest that this issue is proven one way or the other, either there is a problem at higher temperatures, in witch case we can look at how to reduce temperatures over all, or there is not really an issue when tested under proper conditions in the ways that people actually vape.

Doing the temperature tests on the kit we use is useful, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating... the makeup of the vapour produced is what's really important.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

That's the beauty of a forum - each of us gets to choose what to read. If a thread makes you uncomfortable, it's easy to use the ignore function so you don't have to see it when you look at new posts. Clicking on the Ignore Thread link is all it takes - It's right up at the top of the page next to thread tools!

There will always be vapers who want to know more and those who don't. No need to get all riled up.

The problem is it doesn't really apply to real world usage but any time some government official visits a leading forum on this subject they aren't going to read the comments here just click the link...

This thread is mostly garbage promoting crap that doesn't apply to real world conditions 99% of the time and it's in the wrong forum.

Why on earth does junk science deserve this much attention?

 

[homeuser6]

"The problem is it doesn't really apply to real world usage"
how is that? i got a temperature report on exactly what i use.

 

[mikepetro]

The problem is it doesn't really apply to real world usage but any time some government official visits a leading forum on this subject they aren't going to read the comments here just click the link...

This thread is mostly garbage promoting crap that doesn't apply to real world conditions 99% of the time and it's in the wrong forum.

Why on earth does junk science deserve this much attention?

My temperature measurements do not get any more "real world" than this. I actually vaped each and every measurement "normally" myself.

To call what I am doing "junk science is an insult.

What remains to be corroborated is the Wang and Geiss studies in regards to aldehyde emissions. That is beyond my scope and capabilities.

I will continue my work as others are interested, if you are not, that's not my problem.

Sent from phone, please excuse fat thumbs and autocorrect.

 

[kiba]

Oh gawd, a dry hit on SS mesh, talk about devil's ..........

I rarely ever got those, just tilt when it runs really low until there's none left, when there's 2 or 3 drops left, that's where I probably should refill it.

 

[classwife]

The problem is it doesn't really apply to real world usage but any time some government official visits a leading forum on this subject they aren't going to read the comments here just click the link...

This thread is mostly garbage promoting crap that doesn't apply to real world conditions 99% of the time and it's in the wrong forum.

Why on earth does junk science deserve this much attention?

Had you read this thread you would have understanding of it's value and perhaps even gained some knowledge that you might find useful for yourself.

If you have no interest in this thread move on to another.

 

[englishmick]

It's in every bodies interest that this issue is proven one way or the other, either there is a problem at higher temperatures, in witch case we can look at how to reduce temperatures over all, or there is not really an issue when tested under proper conditions in the ways that people actually vape.

Doing the temperature tests on the kit we use is useful, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating... the makeup of the vapour produced is what's really important.

What we have so far is a decent level of confidence that VG and PG can break down at a certain temperature when heated in a test tube, and produce some stuff we wouldn't want to inhale. Plus, thanks to Mike, a window into the temperatures that are occurring at the business end of our gear. That's information we didn't have until recently. Wishing we had more is fine, but we make life decisions every day based on information that hasn't reached a level of scientific certainty.

Doing composition analysis of the vapor produced during each of Mike's tests would be a major undertaking, and involve a lot more than one guy working in his spare time at his kitchen table. You get real world conditions through Mike really vaping. You can't test what goes into his mouth and lungs. So you have to build a machine that duplicates what Mike's mouth and lungs are doing. We've seen tests like that done with smoking machines and they haven't exactly received universal approval. That's a rabbit hole I wouldn't want to dive into, even if I had the million dollars or so it would take to fire it up.

We each have to decide at what point the available information becomes useful to us. I've reached that point as far as the topic of this thread goes.

 

[Burnie]

Had you read this thread you would have understanding of it's value and perhaps even gained some knowledge that you might find useful for yourself.

If you have no interest in this thread move on to another.

 

[Layzee Vaper]

@englishmick

I was not expecting Mike to fund or carry out the testing himself, far from it.

The fact that Mike has done more to try and highlight the possible issues and resolve those issues than any of the major players in this industry is astonishing.

Just in the UK alone there are 3 or 4 million vapers, all buying mods, atties, and juice. In some cases the profit margin on these items is quite frankly obscene.

Companies like Evolve, Kanger, Yihi etc are making big money. The juice manufactures are making big money. The larger retailers are also making big money.

Between them they easily have the resources to fund proper scientific tests that are relevant and robust enough to stand up to scrutiny from vapers and the wider community.

 

[zoiDman]

The problem is it doesn't really apply to real world usage ...

Hmmm?

Sticking a Temperature Probe down into a actual Atomizer and then taking a Variety of Hits off it. Not sure How Much More Real World you can Get?

 

[englishmick]

@englishmick

I was not expecting Mike to fund or carry out the testing himself, far from it.

The fact that Mike has done more to try and highlight the possible issues and resolve those issues than any of the major players in this industry is astonishing.

Just in the UK alone there are 3 or 4 million vapers, all buying mods, atties, and juice. In some cases the profit margin on these items is quite frankly obscene.

Companies like Evolve, Kanger, Yihi etc are making big money. The juice manufactures are making big money. The larger retailers are also making big money.

Between them they easily have the resources to fund proper scientific tests that are relevant and robust enough to stand up to scrutiny from vapers and the wider community.

I agree with what you said here. But as Mike mentioned, the big companies in the field, including BT/BP, have almost certainly already done these tests. They mostly aren't going to share with the world because those results are proprietary and could be worth a lot of money to them later on. Like giving them a competitive advantage when they have to submit PMTA's. As far as that goes we are probably on our own.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

Had you read this thread you would have understanding

It's all so futile and fruitless and even common sense, if I set my toaster to 10 of course it'll burn my bread.. if I set it to 7 still gonna burn just not so black...

The entire basis is that when something gets really hot stuff gets burned..

 

[awsum140]

I'd conjecture that probably BT/BP have run tests similar to what Mike has done, but only on their own, proprietary, systems. Mike has been working with what us "dedicated vapers are using. That's, to me, is far more valuable. If they do have data on emissions at specific temperatures that would be nice to know, and if they have it I sure wish they'd publish it.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

I'd conjecture that probably BT/BP have run tests similar to what Mike has done, but only on their own, proprietary, systems. Mike has been working with what us "dedicated vapers are using. That's, to me, is far more valuable. If they do have data on emissions at specific temperatures that would be nice to know, and if they have it I sure wish they'd publish it.

The problem is there's just to many variables for anything to be exact enough for us to count on the data.

You can have the same atomizer, the same power levels, the same mod, the same coil, the same juice, the same airflow control setting, the same damn everything but you have two different people that inhale at different rates, for someone with big lungs and inhales fairly strong the results will be completely different than someone that inhales relatively slow since more airflow will cool the coil faster.

Then you have to take into account the machines used to test the devices, they can't taste, they can't tell if something is wrong, when formaldehyde or other carcinogens are formed generally we can taste it and stop use, adjust settings, change the coil etc, the equipment just isn't smart enough, most of it was designed to test cigarettes, well we don't smoke and vapor products are completely different.. Perhaps if they designed new equipment that was more realistic EG: the machine turns off if too high of formaldehyde levels are detected (based on an average of where 1000 vapers start to notice it burning at their rate of airflow).

Pretty much every study out there done on the vapor itself is flawed because of poor methodology that doesn't reflect real world conditions..

 

[Burnie]

The problem is there's just to many variables for anything to be exact enough for us to count on the data.

You can have the same atomizer, the same power levels, the same mod, the same coil, the same juice, the same airflow control setting, the same damn everything but you have two different people that inhale at different rates, for someone with big lungs and inhales fairly strong the results will be completely different than someone that inhales relatively slow since more airflow will cool the coil faster.

Then you have to take into account the machines used to test the devices, they can't taste, they can't tell if something is wrong, when formaldehyde or other carcinogens are formed generally we can taste it and stop use, adjust settings, change the coil etc, the equipment just isn't smart enough, most of it was designed to test cigarettes, well we don't smoke and vapor products are completely different.. Perhaps if they designed new equipment that was more realistic EG: the machine turns off if too high of formaldehyde levels are detected (based on an average of where 1000 vapers start to notice it burning at their rate of airflow).

Pretty much every study out there done on the vapor itself is flawed because of poor methodology that doesn't reflect real world conditions..

Edit:

 

[GaryInTexas]

Should we have useful and interesting information from this testing now or wait for the perfect testing that will be available sometime... maybe?

 

[zoiDman]

The problem is there's just to many variables for anything to be exact enough for us to count on the data.

You can have the same atomizer, the same power levels, the same mod, the same coil, the same juice, the same airflow control setting, the same damn everything but you have two different people that inhale at different rates, for someone with big lungs and inhales fairly strong the results will be completely different than someone that inhales relatively slow since more airflow will cool the coil faster.

Then you have to take into account the machines used to test the devices, they can't taste, they can't tell if something is wrong, when formaldehyde or other carcinogens are formed generally we can taste it and stop use, adjust settings, change the coil etc, the equipment just isn't smart enough, most of it was designed to test cigarettes, well we don't smoke and vapor products are completely different.. Perhaps if they designed new equipment that was more realistic EG: the machine turns off if too high of formaldehyde levels are detected (based on an average of where 1000 vapers start to notice it burning at their rate of airflow).

Pretty much every study out there done on the vapor itself is flawed because of poor methodology that doesn't reflect real world conditions..

So what's the Solution?

Test Every Atomizer with Every e-Liquid out there under Every Possible Condition that Every User might use?

Or can things be Gained from a Thread like this like seeing how Back-2-Back Vaping can Significantly Increase Coil Temp? Or how a Small a Small amount of Water can Lower the Boiling Point of an e-Liquid?

I don't think Mike ever said that the Results he saw for a given Atomizer/Wattage/e-Liquid applied to Anything but the given Atomizer/Wattage/e-Liquid.

But does that mean we should Summarily Dismiss the Data that has been presented?

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

So what's the Solution?

Test Every Atomizer with Every e-Liquid out there under Every Possible Condition that Every User might use?

Or can things be Gained from a Thread like this like seeing how Back-2-Back Vaping can Significantly Increase Coil Temp? Or how a Small a Small amount of Water can Lower the Boiling Point of an e-Liquid?

I don't think Mike ever said that the Results he saw for a given Atomizer/Wattage/e-Liquid applied to Anything but the given Atomizer/Wattage/e-Liquid.

But does that mean we should Summarily Dismiss the Data that has been presented?

Create a methodology and equipment that can properly access atomizers under various conditions, to even consider beginning you'd have to perform a study determine average levels/cfm? of airflow for different settings for individual atomizers to have fairly accurate puffing patterns, eg average low/med/high, once you have the settings and amount of airflow passing over the coil and while being able to detect whether or not a user could tollerate/enjoy the vape only then will it be possible to reflect real world data.

Yes current data holds some value but does it educate us on how to properly operate our vapes safely? In this circumstance In Vitro versus In Vivo comes to mind, In Vitro studies while they are an important step in scientific research, in vitro shows us that yes lets say formaldehyde can affect cells in a certain way but In Vivo tests show how much they actually affect us and can determine the real effects to human beings because it actually measures how much it's affecting a live subject.