New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[mikepetro]

I agree. What I was desperately trying to convey here is that I (at least) use less power (wattage) PER COIL when I use dual coil attys. So I thought there is some advantage to using dual-coil setups. But apparently the increased output of vapor negates any benefits of vaping at cooler temps.

Over an out.

It depends......... on those 18 variables for VW mods.

Wattage isnt the trigger though, TEMPERATURE is the trigger. It doesnt matter what wattage you run, or on how many coils, if you get above 460 you start getting thermal degradation.

With the 18 different variables affecting temp in a VW mod, I have no way predicting what temp you are running without probing it with a thermocouple using your exact set of variables.

 

[mikepetro]

Whew! I don't!

Couldn't vape 100% VG if they paid me. I need at least 60-70% PG in my blends.

Hand tight, I am testing 50/50 next. I expect less nasties at high temps.

 

[Katya]

You're a godsend, Mike! But you know that by know.

 

[mikepetro]

You're a godsend, Mike! But you know that by know.

There are many who would differ with that, just go back and read the first 20 pages of this thread.

 

[Katya]

read the first 20 pages of this thread.

I have. Been here from the very beginning.

 

[Katdarling]

Hand tight, I am testing 50/50 next. I expect less nasties at high temps.

Mike, from what I've understood (translate: less than I'd like), what are your thoughts on vliquid that runs 65/35 or 70/30 PG/VG?

 

[mikepetro]

Mike, from what I've understood (translate: less than I'd like), what are your thoughts on vliquid that runs 65/35 or 70/30 PG/VG?

I can tell you I tried 75/25 PG/VG and liked it.

This morning I would have expected it to be less prone to thermal degradation, but doing these 50/50 tests surprised me. I had to go back and read up on PG again. PG does indeed have the same phenomena, just at a different temperature range.

The 50/50 tests are going VERY slow, each sample is taking about an hour, it takes that long for the sensor to stabilize, and then recover. I just finished the 5th sample at 500f, and now waiting to start the 480 regiment.

The results are not what I expected, but it would be premature to make any judgement yet, until I can see the whole curve.

ETA: the results surprised me enough that I even did a Standard Deviation calculation on the 5 samples. It looks valid.

 

[Katdarling]

I can tell you I tried 75/25 PG/VG and liked it.

But did you kiss a girl?

PG does indeed have the same phenomena, just at a different temperature range.

Meaning?

ETA: the results surprised me enough that I even did a Standard Deviation calculation on the 5 samples. It looks valid.

Pretty pic, Mike, but this is where you lose me.

 

[mikepetro]

But did you kiss a girl?
Meaning?
Pretty pic, Mike, but this is where you lose me.

Hmmmm, dont remember, depends on what weekend it was.

Standard deviation is an statistical indication of how repeatable a set of tests are. If the SD is large it means your testing wasnt very good. The pic shows the SD for this dataset, and it didnt indicate a large deviation, indicating the tests were within a decent tolerance of each other, ie not a technique problem.

Most scientifically "published" data will show SD for all of their testing, it is a confidence indicator.

In statistics, the standard deviation (SD, also represented by the Greek letter sigma σ or the Latin letter s) is a measure that is used to quantify the amount of variation or dispersion of a set of data values.[1] A low standard deviation indicates that the data points tend to be close to the mean (also called the expected value) of the set, while a high standard deviation indicates that the data points are spread out over a wider range of values.

In layman's term, it an indicator of the quality of the series of testing performed under identical variables. Low SD is good, high SD is sloppy.

 

[Jumpin' In...]

@Katya and @Katdarling :

Maybe you two should just stop fighting it and get into vaping with TC?

Although some gear doesn’t go that well with TC (e.g. Kayfun 4), the transition is otherwise really not that bad. I have no doubt that you both have the skills to handle it.

[Psst: TC builds in my Ego One tanks work fine.]

 

[mikepetro]

@Katya and @Katdarling :

Maybe you two should just stop fighting it and get into vaping with TC?

Although some gear doesn’t go that well with TC (e.g. Kayfun 4), the transition is otherwise really not that bad. I have no doubt that you both have the skills to handle it.

[Psst: TC builds in my Ego One tanks work fine.]

OMG, I have spent 249 pages trying to say that! Thank gawd someone else sees it too!!!!

I need to learn to use less words.

 

[homeuser6]

i'll be fine.

thanks mike

 

[Katya]

Maybe you two should just stop fighting it and get into vaping with TC?

Very good question. How long have you been on my (our) case about TC?

Although some gear doesn’t go that well with TC (e.g. Kayfun 4), the transition is otherwise really not that bad. I have no doubt that you both have the skills to handle it.

For the record, I have tried every TC coil that came with my tanks (Ti, Ni, SS) and I made my own ss coil for CLRs. I hated the stock TC coils (except Kanger STM SS coils). My own ss coils were fine, but I haven't noticed any improvement in vape quality over my familiar Kanthal coils, so never felt any urgency to switch to the technology that is still, excuse the pun, evolving.

You see, I've been vaping for almost 8 years and spent the first six or seven of those years experimenting, trying new things, learning, modding, constantly switching to new and improved ways to vape. I'm now at this happy place where I know what I like and I don't have to think about what to do and how to do. Vaping is almost as easy to me as smoking was. And since I've always vaped defensively--high PG flavorless or barely flavored eliquids, low wattage, MTL (or no lung at all ), no 1st gen devices whatsoever, no thin wires, plenty of airflow, etc.--I feel I'm OK for now. I also have some questions about the new wires used in TC mode--Ni, Ti, SS? I was hoping that Dr. Farsalinos would make a study on safety of different wires used in vaping, which he had planned, but it hasn't happened yet.

In the meantime, I'm watching the evolution of TC technology, reading this thread, and waiting for the right moment (or a reason) to take the plunge. I'm pretty sure that TC is the future of vaping, anyway. It just makes sense.

 

[awsum140]

Kat, from all the reading I've done, and I'm not a researcher or physicist by any stretch, Ni, Ti and SS only emit things we might not want to inhale at temperatures in the range of 800F and higher. Since vaping at those temperatures wouldn't taste very good, or be vapeable at all, I stopped worrying about it.

I have a feeling the next generation of TC won't have the restrictions of wire types and will, probably, use a different method, thermistor, to determine temperature but that will require a completely different connector to replace the 510 we all know and "love". Incidentally, kanthal contains iron, chromium and aluminum and relies on a layer of aluminum oxide, on its surface, to remain stable. Any metal will emit things we probably don't want to inhale IF heated to a high enough temperature. The saving grace is that those temperatures are far too high to vape at.

On another note, a B flat, I just saw another "exploding e-cig" report on the early morning news here, Philly ABC station. The user says he only had it for a week, had not modified it, and it blew up in his face when he took a puff. He looked kind of "gamey" in the video and says he's done with e-cigs. No other details, as usual, so in my mind the jury is still out, but the narrative is being well supported by stuff like this.

 

[mikepetro]

So, here are my results:

• Below 440f anything is relatively formaldehyde free
• Above 480f is appears that the 90\10 VG\DW was the safest, which makes perfect sense if you look at the boiling point which is 281f. Even 5% DW would lower the boiling point to 332f and be way below the danger zone.

I was surprised by the 50/50 curve as it didnt correlate as close as the VG curves did to Wangs study. I expected it to be lower than 100% VG, but this is what the data showed, and I did 5 samples at each temp and the SD was pretty good across the board.

My Testing:

The above results are inline with Dr Kurts study, however it is difficult to know what temperature he was running at various wattage settings. I would propose that his higher mg\g values were also higher temperatures.

My Testing:

Now multiply these values by how many puffs you take a day.

Again, the above results are inline with Dr Kurts study, however it is difficult to know what temperature he was running at various wattage settings. I would propose that his higher ug\puff values were also higher temperatures.

Lets keep the "per puff" in perspective, here is "per puff" for tobacco:

From our own Dr Kurt:

Thermal Degradation is real folks.

• Dr Kurt, Wang and Guiss have all identified it in one way or another. Many were discredited within our community because they didnt use actual vape gear or conditions.
  
• I have used actual vape gear and conditions, and I also saw and measured the thermal degradation in our own gear, and at temperatures that many do vape at.
  
• Volts and Watts equate to a gas pedal, but it is the SPEED (Temperature) that will get you a ticket.
• How FAST you go is determined by the gas pedal, but how hard you have to press the pedal differs from vehicle to vehicle.
• So it is with VV\VW mods, the amount of watts to get over 440f will differ from mod to mod based on those 18 variables.
• If formaldehyde levels concern you, TC mods are a much more accurate way to know how hot you are running. Regardless, vaping is still safer than combustible tobacco!
  
• And contrary to what many say, "I" couldnt taste anything bad until I hit about 505f! Our taste-buds are not as good of an indicator as some may think.

Temperature Matters.....................

• I am not saying that vaping is unsafe, I am saying that vaping too hot is not as safe as it could be, and that is easily fixable.
• Even at high temperatures, I didnt measure anything that exceeded a cigarette. However I was using a moderate build. Extreme builds, contact coils, multiple coils, Clapton\twisted\braided coils, etc, will have higher levels (at a given temp) than I measured.
• An extreme enough build, at high temp, could indeed exceed formaldehyde levels found in combustible tobacco!

The ACTUAL statement made by the Royal College of Physicians, 11 St Andrews Place, Regent's Park, London NW1 4LE

"E-cigarettes and long-term harm - the possibility of some harm from long-term e-cigarette use cannot be dismissed due to inhalation of the ingredients other than nicotine, but is likely to be very small, and substantially smaller than that arising from tobacco smoking. With appropriate product standards to minimise exposure to the other ingredients, it should be possible to reduce risks of physical health still further. Although it is not possible to estimate the long-term health risks associated with e-cigarettes precisely, the available data suggest that they are unlikely to exceed 5% of those associated with smoked tobacco products, and may well be substantially lower than this figure."

Please note the part highlighted in green. What they are saying is that there is "probably" more we can do to make vaping even safer!

Also note this statement from the University of Cambridge Cancer Institute:

"We also know that different users use different devices and liquids. So it could be that some are safer or more harmful than others. And people also use the devices in different ways. So further work needs to be done to understand these differences, so that each vaper is using their device as safely as possible."


Related Blogs of interest:

• Juice Boiling Point and Vaping Temperatures (includes BP Charts)
• VV & VW Mod Temperature Variables.
• "Best Practices" to avoid high temps on VV/VW mods.
• Mike Petro's Blog Index
• Why should you believe a word I have to say?

 

[stols001]

You've convinced me. I am grocery shopping Monday and I will be buying distilled H20 and a small (yes, let's start small) bottle of vodka. I'll be seeing what happens....

Anna

 

[mikepetro]

Supporting data for those who wish to analyze it:

 

[Caterpiller]

Thank you @mikepetro

I have been following this thread closely from the beginning and your tireless work has gone a long way to further clarify the realities of thermal degradation of VG and PG.

It's up to the individual to do what they want with the information.

I have moved over to TC vaping at 430F.

 

[HansWu]

How are the results in comparision to Dr Farsalinos study, in which they found that only in "dry puff conditions" there were worrysome amounts of formaldehyde etc.
E‐cigarettes generate high levels of aldehydes only in ‘dry puff’ conditions

"Minimal amounts of aldehydes per 10 puffs were found at all power levels with A1 (up to 11.3 µg for formaldehyde, 4.5 µg for acetaldehyde and 1.0 µg for acrolein) and at 6.5 W and 7.5 W with A2 (up to 3.7 µg for formaldehyde, 0.8 µg for acetaldehyde and 1.3 µg for acrolein). The levels were increased by 30 to 250 times in dry puff conditions (up to 344.6 µg for formaldehyde, 206.3 µg for acetaldehyde and 210.4 µg for acrolein, P < 0.001), while acetone was detected only in dry puff conditions (up to 22.5 µg)."

Here you and the study state that emission even increase when under "wet" conditions, do you have an explanation for the differences?

 

[Rossum]

Here you and the study state that emission even increase when under "wet" conditions, do you have an explanation for the differences?

Thermal degradation.

But please note that even Mike's highest values per puff at 500°F are lower than those observed by Dr. Farsalinos, and Dr. F. considered those values to be "minimal".