Isn't the lowest TCR value on the DNA200 you can use a setting of 0.002? Not in front of my computer with EScribe, but pretty sure I remember that... so that would mean no SS wire?
TC beyond Ni200: Nickel Purity, Dicodes; Ti, SS, Resistherm NiFe30; Coefficient of Resistance
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SS was my favorite wire for a while since I tried to do clapton with it. I was very disappointed. Never managed to make it work. Hot spots and inaccurate temp control. On the other hand, Titanium works perfectly. Clapton, fused clapton works prefect even thought I can't dry burn them. I'll try to build an alien coil in the afternoon and if it works I'll stick with it. Maybe you should try a clapton since you don't get much flavor, as it surely gives you much more.
OMG you're right. I never realised that before
That's so dumb, SS is most definitely in the 'practicably controllable range' - it just requires milliohm resistance reading, which the DNA 200 has. It may not be as accurate as other materials, but it's certainly usable - as the Dicodes shows. Hell, even the $40 SXK DNA 40 clones can do it with their 'Nickel Purity' feature.
I will raise a bug/feature request on the Evolv forum for this. It needs to go down to 0.001, otherwise they're needlessly excluding a useful and cheap TC material - one that is already starting to be used in certain coils eg Aspire Triton coil heads.
EDIT: However, it looks like you can put in Stainless Steel via the custom CSV. I downloaded a CSV from Steam Engine, and it imported and uploaded to the mod OK.
I can't test it at the moment, but I suspect it will work.
So that's OK then. It looks like it's only a hardcoded check on the single TCR value, which therefore could (and should) be easily removed. I will raise a change request for that.
Given Steam Engine has the curves for SS there's no reason to use a simple static value anyway, so I think we can say that the DNA 200 will work for SS as long as the user knows to download the CSV. But I will ask them to remove the check on Single TCR as well, as many people might not know about downloading CSVs from Steam Engine (there is a link in EScribe, but only under 'Custom Materials' which people might not think to click.)
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OK interesting. I still haven't tried multi-wire TC twisted, only same-wire eg 2xResistherm, 2xNi200 etc.
You are right I definitely need to try a Clapton, and I have been meaning to for a long time. I definitely will try to sometime soon.
I wonder if the SS didn't work in the Clapton because twisting affects the TCR somewhat. I have long wondered if twisting might alter the TCR a little, and keep meaning to test this. So because Stainless already has such a low TCR, right on the limit of current TC accuracy, maybe twisting it pushes it below what is usable.
It's definitely worth testing sometime. Thanks for the update.
PS. What is an 'alien coil' ?
@TheBlokeOMG you're right. I never realised that before
That's so dumb, SS is most definitely in the 'practicably controllable range' - it just requires milliohm resistance reading, which the DNA 200 has. It may not be as accurate as other materials, but it's certainly usable - as the Dicodes shows. Hell, even the $40 SXK DNA 40 clones can do it with their 'Nickel Purity' feature.
I will raise a bug/feature request on the Evolv forum for this. It needs to go down to 0.001, otherwise they're needlessly excluding a useful and cheap TC material - one that is already starting to be used in certain coils eg Aspire Triton coil heads.
EDIT: However, it looks like you can put in Stainless Steel via the custom CSV. I downloaded a CSV from Steam Engine, and it imported and uploaded to the mod OK.
I can't test it at the moment, but I suspect it will work.
So that's OK then. It looks like it's only a hardcoded check on the single TCR value, which therefore could (and should) be easily removed. I will raise a change request for that.
Given Steam Engine has the curves for SS there's no reason to use a simple static value anyway, so I think we can say that the DNA 200 will work for SS as long as the user knows to download the CSV. But I will ask them to remove the check on Single TCR as well, as many people might not know about downloading CSVs from Steam Engine (there is a link in EScribe, but only under 'Custom Materials' which people might not think to click.)
Don't rush with the request
John said (@27/07/15)
"..We'll change the (TCR) minimum to .001 in the next iteration of EScribe to accommodate.."
In terms of Steamengine:
It seems that @Dampmaskin used some data from my sheets (and kindly credited accordingly) but I am not sure which as I got different values if I do the CSV myself
Besides, I definitely wouldn't use up unnecessary memory space for Ti or S/S unless experimenting.
If my 200er finally gets here it will be a single TCR based line for each, saving storage for more excotic curves
More here Custom coil questions (TFR approximation, csv data limit etc)
Edit: I have just checked my EScribe and it was 1.023 and now v 1.025 which has july 16 release day hence no 0.001 either.
And yes, I know, Escribe up and running, board still who knows where=pathetic lol
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That's awesome VA, thanks very much! I haven't checked the Evolv forum since I came back, and really must do so soon.
I shall respectfully but firmly disclaim that my previous chart contained any information about S/S 317. Although, I have to allow for me drawing premature conclusions based on 304/316
In that case: sorry
I have quickly entered the data from Table 5 on page 24 of this and updated the Stainless Steel material tab
0.0015 for a 0-100°C nominal TCR is more than realistic
for the 20-100°C is 0.001479However, TCR drops heavily with temp, more drastically than that of 304's or 316's. The good news is that it is still in the 0.009ish range around 300°C therefore more suitable than 316, especially in a dna200 where you can apply TFR curve.
)Homework:
I will make the curve and add 317 to the ρ(T)/TFR(T)/TCR(T) tabs. On request, I can do a few segments 68°F normaised CSV material as well
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BTW: do you know that this 0.00105 from Dicodes refers to which grade/temp range?
No I don't, they just refer to it as "Stainless Steel". They do mention that different alloys have different TCRs, but don't explain where they got their figure from!
To be honest I'm not sure either.
Is it a significant difference, or just a tiny one? It might have something to do with the normalizing "anchor" temperature, and conversion between C and F. My calculator regards 20C as "close enough" to 70F, but I'm not sure that is a good practice.I'm open to refining the tables as new or better data comes along. Most of the code will be replaced anyway, when I replace the TCR calculator with a brand new calculator.
UPDATE - the brand new calculator (edited crosspost from the DNA 200 forum, and also posted in the Steam Engine thread):
After a year of pondering, a month or two of planning and gathering gumption, and a few days (weeks?) of sweating and cursing over a computer keyboard, I have finally come up with another coil calculator (or rather, a wire calculator this time). This is for TC coils, and also for all the fancy schmancy coil freaks out there. With some luck and some time, it can grow into a calculator for most coil winding needs. Who knows?
I haven't linked to it from the Steam Engine navigation menu yet, because I don't want everyone and their grandmother using it right now. It is not a finished product. But it has reached a point where I feel it's time for some feedback, lest I go astray and turn it into a steaming (vaping) heap of garbage, so here is the sooper sekrit link for you:
Wire Wizard
Feel free to check it out, take everything with a grain of salt, and if you don't understand the first thing click "How it works". Then enjoy whatever works, try to enjoy whatever doesn't, and feel free to say exactly what you think in the Steam Engine thread.
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There is difference. Not overly significant but it is there.To be honest I'm not sure either.
Besides, the study I have used refers to experimental sets of data (on electrical resistivity) as follows:
- 303-few sets of data
- 304 - 26 data sets
- 316 - 8 data sets
- 321 -2 sets
- 347 -4 sets
- 410, 430 -5 sets for each
There is no data for 316L and 317L at all.
Bottom line:
You might want to consider giving output only for available input, i.e for 316 instead of 316L and for 317 instead of 317L.
Normalising wise: I was advised here that you can normalise your TFR to (almost) any reference temp you wish e.g. to 68°F(20°C) just working fine.
Besides, it seems that you use a single TCR for the Ti Gr1 TFR outputs and IMO it would work just fine for S/S too as long as you use the TCR belonging to a temp around 300°C as per bellow:
- 304: TCR(20-300°C)=~0.001016 and ρ(T)= ρ(20°C) x (1+0.001016*(T-20°C)) and TFR(T)= ρ(T)/ρ(20°C)
- 316: TCR(20-300°C)=~0.00088 and ρ(T)= ρ(20°C) x (1+0.00088*(T-20°C)) and TFR(T)= ρ(T)/ρ(20°C)
- 317: TCR(20-327°C)=~0.000826 and ρ(T)= ρ(20°C) x (1+0.000826*(T-20°C)) and TFR(T)= ρ(T)/ρ(20°C)
Or drop a PM and tell me what the easiest input for your algorithm.
Wow.
Promising
After a quick look my feedback:
The TCR button opens a table with TFR values as it is indicated on it. No big deal but could be confusing.
TC sensitivity seems to show relative sensitivity compare to Ni200 which is an interesting choice of reference as it has the most irregular ρ(T)/TFR(T)/TCR(T) curve of all materials listed.
Some TFR based sensitivity indicator could be more accurate and informative e.g.:
Ni200: 100-270%
Ti1: 100-199%.. etc
referring to the resistance change
or some TCR based (similar to the dumb named Purity setting), where 100% is TCR=0.01, e.g:
Ni200: 44-61%
Ti1: 35% .. etc
But otherwise like I said: Wow
Ps:
I will repost it in your thread as well
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It seems that someone was right here.
Again.
And it wasn't me
Neither my post above with premature conclusions based on false numbers because of some wrong cell reference.OMG how could I not realise that the 20°C normalised TFR result was not 1.0000 @ 20°C ?!
First of all, thank you for the Cindas report, I can't tell you how useful it is.
About the single TCR values, I think it would be better to make the calculation for 20-230°C(227) instead of 20-300°C because 200°C-230°C is the real vaping range if the measurement is correct.
For example the temperature seems to be more accurate and stable with 0.00105 for 304 (V2A from Zivipf) on a DNA200.
Agree, TCR picked within your preferred temp range will definite give better result. Should I have any S/S on hand I would use some 200°C-ish TCR too
In terms of the Cindas report, I am happy that you have found it useful
So, if it was me
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Awesome, thanks for the heads-up!
In the meantime, for UK users it's now also available on Pipeline's UK site: NiFe30 Dicodes Resistherm Heating Wire for rebuildable atomizer | Pipeline-store.co.uk
But it's £11 for 10m, which is even more expensive than from Germany - £11 is €15.50. Bloody typical UK pricing! Take an already expensive product and make it even more so.
That said it's probably still cheaper for UK users to order from Pipeline UK than Pipeline Germany, taking postage into account.
But if Zivipf will have it soon, that will be most preferable of all.
Awesome, thanks so much! I have been meaning to, for months and months, contact you to put in a request for something similar like this. I keep finding myself having to reverse engineer the normal calculator, eg I want to know "What will be the ohms of 8 wraps / XX mm", rather than putting in the ohms and finding out the wraps/length. So I keep changing the resistance until I get the desired length/number of wraps
One request: To the Wire Wizard, could you add the ability to enter details of coils. So in total I'd like to be able to enter:
- Wire length in mm
- OR Number of coil wraps, in which case also:
- Single/Dual/Quad coil selector
- Coil ID
- Leg Length
Thanks again for the great site!
The option of entering an ID and a number of wraps is already on my to do-list, which by the way is unsorted, so I have no idea when. But it will be added eventually.
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