nothing is impossible, but a chemist saying that it is unlikely to happen after blended means that the measurable catalyzation to traces of diacytel happens before it is blended.
The Muffin Man and The Milk Man - Company's response to Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Propionyl
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Could this be a reason why companies may be feeling it is not yet time to make disclosure a thing?
I just did a quick search... a more thorough search to come, but it looks like diacetyl can be formed during the aging of certain liquids that contain acetoin, citric acid, or lactic acid. The "citric acid" was a bit of a surprise, since most people (self included) associate diacetyl with creamy flavors, not fruity flavors.
ok this is interesting, and may give credit to those wanting "clean rooms"... my searches for diacetyl formed by acetoin, lactic acid, or citric acid keeps pulling up wine-making and beer-brewing sites, which I felt were irrelevant because of the fermenting process and use of yeasts, but I finally read through a few of these and found that bacteria (particularly lactobacillus but a few others too) can be the culprit in creating diacetyl. These bacteria can easily be found anywhere. Hmmm... I'm not sure what to make of this!! We need a chemist in here!
You quote my post to another member, but do not respond to what i actually said ( that the vendor response is irresponsible ) instead you respond to an imaginary position ( that such a response is actionable ) and use the term " most semi intelligent people " which is not a legal term but a somewhat derogatory one, as you well know. Seems hostile to me.
I say that your personal choices don't concern me, and you respond to an imaginary statement ; " that i am not interested in your opinions ".
I imply ( to another member ) that a certain member has been trolling me as well, and you respond that " i might like to look down my nose to somebody that has a different way of expressing themselves. " One implies deliberate attempts at derailing, and the other an inability to properly express their thoughts on the matter. Almost the exact opposite of what i implied.
So forgive me if i interpret that you have no interest in a meaningful discussion on the topic, but rather to argue against an imaginary position which is easier to refute and/or ridicule.
I thank you for wishing me a good day ! I chose to believe that this was not disingenuous.
i agree with your stance whole heartily. if you see some thing amiss
call it out.
however from what is see is 99.9% of it appears that
a company isn't being called out, its been absolutely
trashed into the curb.
what is dishonest and misleading?
with out actual confirmations of fact,(proof of harm)
there isn't any thing tangible to be dishonest
or misleading about.
90% or of the people that vape are unaware of
the political storm surrounding vaping let alone
anything else about it. you know what? they do
not care. it is what it is,too much info,blah,blah,blah.
its the same with vendors. if they are using GRAS
ingredients why would they not believe they are
making a product that is as safe as it can be?
are they supposed to spend all of their time,
energy and,money running down each and every
particular concern of each and every individual
costumers health concerns or, should they be
operating their company's.
i do not believe that vendors are all out to steal
our money by selling us poison. they are making
a consumer product not,saving the whales.
some vendors are making investments that lean
towards the more health conscious segment of
the e-cigarette "community". that's good.
i do not believe for one minute its because
they care about my health. they see a viable
niche market and are catering to it not,
because its the right thing to do its,because
there is money to be made.that's good also
because it gives consumers more choice.
there's nothing altruistic about any of this.
we are buyers. they are sellers.
if we do not like what there selling,
we don't buy it.
regards
mike
How can anybody be honest with themselves and say if I take out these two specific esters because they are a ( prominent volatile) danger (dr F said so) and I choose to substitute them with keytones I will have less chance of contracting a lung disease ?
If one was truly trying to take out harmful chemicals wouldn't it make more sense to find the flavor profiles that didn't use a biochemical fermentation process or simply take out the flavoring (chemicals) all together ?
Do I think one is "safer" than the other ? it doesn't mater what I think but I can tell you how much better I feel as to 2 years ago.........
GMOs Are Old Hat. Synthetically Modified Food Is The New Frontier : The Salt : NPR
Facts About Natural And Artificial Flavors - Business Insider
If one was truly trying to take out harmful chemicals wouldn't it make more sense to find the flavor profiles that didn't use a biochemical fermentation process or simply take out the flavoring (chemicals) all together ?
Do I think one is "safer" than the other ? it doesn't mater what I think but I can tell you how much better I feel as to 2 years ago.........
GMOs Are Old Hat. Synthetically Modified Food Is The New Frontier : The Salt : NPR
Facts About Natural And Artificial Flavors - Business Insider
Kurt covered much of this in many of the earlier posts about DA and AP and this is going back several years ago..... so we "do" have a chemist.....he is ECF member and was one of the co researchers with Dr. F. on that study last year.
While the AP/DA subject has gotten posts lately, I realize some think it is new (esp. if they are new to vaping as well), but this has been discussed in much detail in posts from 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 down in the DIY section, and there were some really good DIYers and even a pharmacist who are not here anymore but who wrote quite a lot on the subject of certain chems in ejuice.
I guess that's how I got into not vaping certain things, taking a cue from those who I felt had a better grasp on the subject matter than I did due to scientific and medical training and education....and who were themselves vapers, and not ANTZ, etc.
Not saying do as I do......everybody can do what they want.
I just feel compelled to put the info out for those vapers who want to vape as cleanly as possible (based on what little we know) and who do not want vaping to take from them what cigarettes did.
Its not like Dr. F. and the co researchers woke up one day and said "oh lets just test a bunch of eliquids for AP and DA for fun". It's becaue they already had CONCERNS of certain contaminants in eliquiid and believe they shouldn't be in there at all.
sorry if this offends anyone, but I'm not taking my cues from fellow vapers with no real science background, when I have people with science backgrounds to advise me. That's just me though.
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Kurt covered much of this in many of the earlier posts about DA and AP and this is going back several years ago..... so we "do" have a chemist.....he is ECF member and was one of the co researchers with Dr. F. on that study last year.
While the AP/DA subject has gotten posts lately, I realize some think it is new (esp. if they are new to vaping as well), but this has been discussed in much detail in posts from 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013 down in the DIY section, and there were some really good DIYers and even a pharmacist who are not here anymore but who wrote quite a lot on the subject of certain chems in ejuice.
I guess that's how I got into not vaping certain things, taking a cue from those who I felt had a better grasp on the subject matter than I did due to scientific and medical training and education....and who were themselves vapers, and not ANTZ, etc.
Not saying do as I do......everybody can do what they want.
I just feel compelled to put the info out for those vapers who want to vape as cleanly as possible (based on what little we know) and who do not want vaping to take from them what cigarettes did.
Its not like Dr. F. and the co researchers woke up one day and said "oh lets just test a bunch of eliquids for AP and DA for fun". It's becaue they already had CONCERNS of certain contaminants in eliquiid and believe they shouldn't be in there at all.
sorry if this offends anyone, but I'm not taking my cues from fellow vapers with no real science background, when I have people with science backgrounds to advise me. That's just me though.
And me. I could not have said it more clearly.
Hey wait a minute, I replied to the comment from the one you quoted on your other comment in response to the quote of the 2nd comment from the originally quoted comment. Child PUHLEEEZE.
This thread has died off. So sad. So soon. I guess everyone got tired of word jenga[emoji12] [emoji13]
that and its nice outside.This thread has died off. So sad. So soon. I guess everyone got tired of word jenga
mid eighties and sun shine all week here.
see ya at the lake.
bring your own beer.
mike
Really? One person can make everybody else tired of even trying? Must not have been terribly important then. Congrats Skoony, you must be pretty powerful to be able to do this.
thank you.Really? One person can make everybody else tired of even trying? Must not have been terribly important then. Congrats Skoony, you must be pretty powerful to be able to do this.
my avatar is actually my picture from my senior high
year book.
mike
Enough of the personal attacks.
Thank you.
If I was home, the clock would be coming out now. It probably will Saturday or Sunday, unless people can keep the personal crap out of the posts.
Thank you.
If I was home, the clock would be coming out now. It probably will Saturday or Sunday, unless people can keep the personal crap out of the posts.
i agree with your stance whole heartily. if you see some thing amiss
call it out.
however from what is see is 99.9% of it appears that
a company isn't being called out, its been absolutely
trashed into the curb.
what is dishonest and misleading?
with out actual confirmations of fact,(proof of harm)
there isn't any thing tangible to be dishonest
or misleading about.
90% or of the people that vape are unaware of
the political storm surrounding vaping let alone
anything else about it. you know what? they do
not care. it is what it is,too much info,blah,blah,blah.
its the same with vendors. if they are using GRAS
ingredients why would they not believe they are
making a product that is as safe as it can be?
[...]
if we do not like what there selling,
we don't buy it.
regards
mike
I second this view. In the end we don't know if these products are harmful. But this endless debate only gives FDA or tobacco companies a point to overregulate this when there is no evidence connecting diseases to this.
Mixing liquids can become toxic? Who spend two seconds of his time to focus its attention on cocktails? Who knows if redbull and jegermeister is toxic?
It seems to me that for no reason we are adding market value to profucers who test, and those who do test they do it because (as someone stated here on this thread, earlier on) just by posting the (right) results alone would justify the costs of the tests.
So it is becoming like advertising, where the company that doesn't spend in adv is the one who will gradually sell less and less.
If this would be truly dangerous, this would be the first argument to use to ban vaping altogether.
But is less noticeable than smoking diseases, by a factor of 100 if not more.
I stand myself corrected, there might be diseases connected to these substances, but would be like comparing mushrooms toxic level in a main course prepared with said mushrooms. If you eat too much of them then you might end up in an hospital, like most pleasurable things in this world.
And i can find those in any supermarket.
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