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Vaping is not a complete substitute for tobacco smoking

Discussion in 'Health, Safety and Vaping' started by Kate, Jan 26, 2009.

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  1. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Important release about nicotine addiction. - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site and forum* Le site de la cigarette électronique

    So it seems that it's not nicotine that some of us miss when we get cravings, it's a combination of chemicals. Raising nicotine intake won't help with that, it'll just raise tolerance or cause illness.

    "80% of users of nicotine patches resume smoking" Will this happen with us?

    Would it help if we could dose ourselves with harmine?
  2. robw

    robw Super Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 7, 2008
    Austin Texas
    at this point I think the other chemicals we are addicted to are most likely gone. I dont have cravings for them when im vaping so the mental effected of blowing smoke has worked at making you not realize what you were addicted to.

    The best thing to do is take this as a mind game the big tobacco is playing with us. If we think we are addicted to the paper in the analog then we will be. It is all in your head.
  3. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    It is emphatically NOT in my head and even that suggestion boils my blood!

    Please read this extremely important research study again. And try to understand it. The reason e-smoking does not satisfy addiction the way cigarette smoking does is because MAOIs are missing. Our liquid's chemists must work on the formula to achieve something that more closely duplicates the pleasure of a tobacco cigarette.

    Gotta stop ... gotta stop ... down blood pressure, down ...
  4. Bellinghamster

    Bellinghamster Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2008
    Bellingham, WA USA
    The fact that the other chemicals are gone does not infer that you are no longer addicted to them. That's like telling a 25-year recovering alcoholic that it's OK to partake, since the original alcohol has been gone for 25 years...

    Addiction has its mental components, but without a doubt there are very real physical ones as well. This study seems to provide some new insight as to why smoking tobacco is SO addictive [I have friends that kicked ...... and can't stop smoking...]
  5. RainbowznStarz

    RainbowznStarz Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 6, 2008
    Fairfax, Va
    Thank you for posting this Kate. It helps explain in my mind WHY I'm still getting cravings/urges for cigarettes.
  6. ZambucaLu

    ZambucaLu ECF Guru ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Nov 23, 2008
    Central NY, USA
    All of us here are addicted to some aspect of smoking. Even those who smoke no nic are addicted to at least the ritual of smoking. If not, it would be wiser to just walk away from the whole thing and save themselves a lot of money, wouldn't it?

    I'm pretty much beyond the point of trying to figure out what about smoking is addictive. I concentrate now on trying to get as healthy as I can despite the addiction. Maybe someday it will be different.

    I sometimes wonder how those who just go cold turkey were ever able to just get over all the addictive aspects of smoking. But they do it....yet it remains a mystery to me. If someone can ever figure out how some are able to do that and others aren't, then I'll really listen.

  7. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    That's what it also did for me, Rainbow. It was eye-opening, to say the least. Now we KNOW.
  8. xpdx

    xpdx Full Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 6, 2009
    Pacific NW USA
    "And knowing is half the battle!"


    Sorry I couldn't resist.

    Vaping certainly only satisfies part of the tobacco cigarette habit. But like most things in life you have to give up something to get something. I consider e-cigs a middle step to quitting, probably an early step. I'm in no hurry, I have till I die to quit right?
  9. Satire

    Satire Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 5, 2008
    Working on it already :p I found a bunch of articles about this type of testing when I was working on the toxicology report. However the only pure MAOIs I have on hand is harmaline and harmine, which are rather safe and temporary (MAO activity returns to normal within 12 hours) inhibitors, but the professional studies say these didn't seem to work on their rats, only the strong (the ones that actually destroy rather than inhibit, taking weeks for the body to re-establish MAO action) MAOIs replicated the self-dosing tendencies of tobacco in their rats. I will see what I can find though. However I will not be publicly posting the results if I succeed (I will PM to anyone interested though), the last thing we need is suppliers to shift efforts from safety issues to "how to make my product more desireable and addictive."
  10. Silver

    Silver ɹǝʌןıs Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jan 24, 2008
    New Zealand
    That is strange ! I must've been more addicted to the action then as E-vaping has proved to be a totally sufficient replacement of tobacco smoking for me.

    And yet... I have not been able to remove the nic from the equation altogether even though I have tried using only Non nic carts. I now alternate between Low (6mg) and Non, but if I go completely to non, I get more cravings. Perhaps that's in the head as well :confused: ?

  11. RjG

    RjG Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 16, 2008
    Edmonton AB Canada
    Canadians have an edge on all you guys. At this exact moment, it's -26C outside.
    Sitting here at my computer having a 'vape. Do I feel an urge to go outside and have a smoke? Nahhhh. :) lol
  12. nqhqhz

    nqhqhz Full Member Verified Member

    Jan 1, 2009
    If you ARE NOT ON ANY MONOAMINERGIC MEDICATION ESPECIALLY MAOIS (but including SSRIs, tricyclics, wellbutrin (zyban) and chantix, ...., cough syrup etc. etc. etc.) and DO NOT HAVE A HIGH TYROSINE DIET a cup of Passionflower tea in the morning, which contains mild monoamine oxidase inhibitors, is reputed to help with cravings. It has apparently worked for me.

    p.s. Satire, regarding harmala alkaloids, as I'm sure you're aware, some of the native americans used to smoke syrian rue seeds instead of brewing it, so they must be active by that route. I would be very interested in hearing your results privately if you find anything interesting, just for knowledge's sake.
  13. SuperStack

    SuperStack Super Member ECF Veteran

    The truth of the matter is that blanket statements either way cannot be made on this issue.

    For me, vaping is wholly adequate in satisfying my urges, and in fact, I've experienced the opposite of what's mentioned in that article above. My repulsion to smoking tobacco keeps increasing by the day since switching.

    So clearly, this is a very complicated matter that cannot be neatly put into a box and explained. Many here have switched no problemo while others struggle - that's a fact.

    One can only assume that differences in individual brain chemistries play a significant role in tobacco addiction.
  14. Silk

    Silk Full Member

    Dec 11, 2008
    Romford UK
    Reading between the lines here. I think this also goes some way towards explaining why smoking is also so popular with those of us with some kind of mental health condition (especially those of us where it is more chemical than phsycological). Not forgetting it wasn't long ago doctors were still suggesting smoking to many of us.

    I have been convicinced for a long time that there was much more in regular cigarettes than just the nic and tar that had me reaching for them despite any other form of smoking or NRT I have tried. Also stopping doesn't just put me through withdrawal it does affect my moods in general.

    I was/am one HEAVY smoker, I could kick through 80-100 camels in a day without thinking. I tried a pipe for a while, and while I loved the pipe and all that went with it, I found I was STILL craving for a cigarette 5 minutes after finishing a bowl of baccie that would've choked a bar full of Beatniks.

    I had the same problems with cigars, and I even had the same trouble wth some of the more organic hand rolling tobaccos, but these I stuck with until I had some form of success in living without tailor mades.

    But like other serious addictions, that addiction to whatever 'it' is never goes away. If I found myself 'out' and bought a pack of 'Bros to get me home, the drive to smoke them all was unreal, even though after so long on purer tobacco - made them taste like grandad's socks on the barbie.

    I'm having some success with the e-cigs - despite the poor build quality not being able to cope with smokers like myself (and TB and Trog reading the posts here) - I've killed 5 atmoisers in 6 weeks!

    But I do emphasise the SOME. The level of nic helps, as does the process and the action. BUT that ain't all there is to it! I know I will be addicted to the X-factor stuff in Tailor mades for the rest of my life, and despite vaping most of the day. I am still hitting half a dozen rollies too.

    The only hope I have is, these things do not get banned, the liquid gets some kind of QC, and we eventualy get either reliable products or disposable costing. The fact I am not inhaling tar and other 'hidden nasties' has to be a be a major plus and I think I can learn to live with them, if I am not constantly wondering how long this bit will last, or I just know that I need x bits per month.

    I think it will take chemists far beyond the norm to decipher the secret alchemy equations these giants have created - if this level of science and knowledge was applied to other areas we would have some impressive medications available.
  15. Silver

    Silver ɹǝʌןıs Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jan 24, 2008
    New Zealand
    I soooo agree with this ! I've been E-vaping for almost a year now and off tobacco completely for almost nine months. Tobacco is simply not an option anymore, I find them utterly disgusting now !

  16. Myk

    Myk Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 1, 2009
    IL, USA
    That has been my experience. Except I'll go one further.
    Vaping does not ease panic attacks (may or may not physically cause them, definitely mentally causes them). Pipe smoking does not ease panic attacks. Chewing tobacco does not ease panic attacks. Cigars don't ease panic attacks.
    Only cigarettes ease panic attacks. The chemicals in cigarettes seem more psychoactive than other tobaccos.

    What I find interesting is all the brain chemicals they list are things that are adjusted by drugs for panic disorder. Sounds like my (and many other's) self-medication is the correct one.

    What I find scary is it sounds like they are pushing brain chemical drugs (Zyban, Chantix). I think that is like using a sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail. They push SSRIs for everything under the sun. Now they will have an excuse to push another psychoactive drug for anything they missed with the SSRIs.
    If we won't go along to get along they will drug us into going along. I'm all for correctly identifying and prescribing, but I hate this shotgun approach.

    I wonder if a 5-HTP supplement would help. Although those are extremely expensive.
  17. Heed

    Heed Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 24, 2008

    Everyone's addiction will be weighted differently in terms of the various aspects of smoking.

    Personally, e-smoking covers all of my needs and I have no desire for cigarettes as long as I have an e-cig on hand. However, I can certainly understand that this won't be the case for everyone.
  18. katink

    katink Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 24, 2008
    the Netherlands
    I think this interesting report covers let's say 'some basics'. It clearly shows that te addiction includes both nicotine ánd other substances (harmine-like). And that is one big asset of this report, I think. And certainly in the beginning of e-smoking we ALL did feel that there was more in the game then just nicotine... a lot for instance (but not all - meaningful fact perhaps?) have had all kinds of (bodily) symptoms after kicking tobacco while not kicking nicotine. So I think that part is clear to us all, and as Bob said: good, very good to KNOW what 'the missing link' (or... at least óne of those??) seems to be!

    But... next to those with cravings even while e-smoking, there is also, undeniably, a group (in my thoughts a large group, though it will need investigation to truly get some numbers up on percentages of course) - but thát group, to which I also belong, do (truly!) leave both tobacco AND cravings behind, once they start e-smoking. And I don't think this group should be disregarded or looked upon as 'it's just in the head' (not one bit more then the other way around!).

    So let's put these facts next to each other...
    - it's not just nicotine
    - some continue to crave with e-smoking
    - some do NOT crave anymore once they are e-smoking (with nicotine!)
    ( - and then there is the group that manages to truly kick the habit, and perhaps also the cravings/addiction(?), through which-ever method - I am leaving this group out of this post, because I think that is another field that needs it's own studies but can not be related in a staight line to the groups that dó need nicotine to stay off the tobacco, be it with or without still feeling cravings. )

    Questions that arise, and that I feel would need answers to be found:

    What can be the difference between the two groups that e-smoke (with cravings still present/without cravings as long as nicotine remains delivered):

    - Is the harmine-part a lasting part, or cán that part be 'handled' adequately? Would it, for instance, be possible that the group seemingly not needing/missing this part, would be the same group that had clear symptoms of certain kinds (the 'flu-like symptoms for instance) when leaving tobacco behind? (So would that be a sign, in hind-sight, of thóse people dealing with the harmine-issue, perhaps?) Needs investigation, both in library and through polls/questionlist within the community, to get some first answers here.

    If the maoi-part is lasting and can't be dealt with first in this process of leaving tobacco (cig-tobacco, probably) behind us, other questions arise as to: how do those nót feeling cravings 'achieve' this? What are the differences between them and the craving group?
    - Can the brain/body itself supply the MAOI-factor? Does the body need certain substances for this to be possible, if the possibility is there but not happening to all?
    - Are those without cravings getting their 'MAOI-fix' in some other manner? How? From where, which substances? Are they using certain medicines, foods, drinks that supply them (read the passionflower-tea above as a possible indication for this for instance)...
    - Is there a possibility that the answer lies within which (group of?) liquids the different groups are using? Is or are there liquid(s) allready supplying this factor perhaps?

    These are (just a few of more) questions that immediately arise with me after reading this report while also taking into account our own community and the divisions within it as to just how e-smoking is helping us.
    I think we can find some of these answers ourselves; or at least help others to get these answers while looking at us, with our help. And we can also map out the differences (within our community) a bit better perhaps?

    And I do think this once again helps or should help to keep our minds as open as possible concerning the diversity within our community in mány ways... we all need to do a lasting effort to not take our own experience as the only possible experience, leading to 'the only possible' answers or theories (just coming from one, our own, experience). We háve to try to stay as open-minded as possible to acknowledging, and then perhaps studying, the differences related to e-smoking within our community (and then there are the groups nót joining this community also: that probably have their very own part in the story...)
  19. rejoice

    rejoice Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 30, 2008
    USA KY
    well here is USA our cigarettes have many things added. One is a Amonnia and read this makes nicotine stronger. The cigarette companies add things to our smokes that are not good. I beleive to keep us buying them. In other words- other stuff added ,that we are Addicted too. So we have more than nicotine to deal with.
  20. Satire

    Satire Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 5, 2008
    The tobacco is treated with ammonia, it is not in the product you buy at the store. That is like saying .... "has drain cleaner in it," lye or sulfuric acid (used for clearing drains) may be used in the synthesis, but it is not in the final product (unless the chemist is one sloppy, lazy douche).

    You sound like another erowid junkie =) but yea I have them in both freebase and salt forms, and they do work when smoking (used em mixed with bufoten~ and dmt) but from the lab reports I have found, they are ineffective, here is a quote from a test attempting to re-create the compulsive self-dosing in rats that tobacco causes.
    "Among 15 individual or combined MAOIs, including harmane, norharmane, moclobemide, selegiline, pargyline, clorgyline, tranylcypromine and phenelzine, only irreversible (harmaline is a temporary inhibitor of only one type of MAO) inhibitors of both MAO-A and -B (tranylcypromine, phenelzine, and clorgyline + selegiline) allowed a locomotor response to nicotine.....Finally, it was found that, whereas naive rats did not readily self-administer nicotine (10/μg/kg/injection), a robust self-administration of nicotine occurred when animals were pretreated with tranylcypromine (3 mg/kg)." I'll check it out though, the MAOI effects of harmaline are rapid and very short-lived (taking harmaline a couple of hours beforehand will not boost tryptamines the same way taking it at the same time or up to 30 min before does), perhaps the rats didn't have time to develop a habit before the effects wore off. I will try adding it directly to the smoking liquid and see if there is a potency difference.
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