What's everyones thoughts on freezing flavoring

[dannyv45]

If you have the glass to re-bottle Danny; I don't know why you wouldn't. With what we know about plastics (?) being susceptible to oxygen transference/permeability; I would hazard to guess this would have a high likelihood of being true for shrink wrapping as well. Also, is the shrink wrap just around the cap and collar, or completely sealing the entire bottle? I would doubt it is offering much additional benefit if it is only cap and collar.
Of course, if you expect to use them up in the short term, there would probably be little benefit gained by repackaging in glass.

I know your right but something about breaking the seal on an unopened bottle before I need to use it kinda gets to me. Maybe I'll save them to bottle last

 

[IDJoel]

I know your right but something about breaking the seal on an unopened bottle before I need to use it kinda gets to me.

You're preaching to the choir my friend!

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

I'd like to keep FDA out of it for now I don't want this to turn into a discussion on FDA regulation.

Confusing comment. I (and presumably others), would think that's the whole purpose for freezing flavors? Otherwise, I'm quite certain the FDA can't classify stand alone food flavoring as a tobacco product. Even if they do, Hangsen is made in China and won't have to submit to FDA's silly-assed rules. (Of course getting it past customs might be a challenge). It's for this reason I'm going to use them exclusively now.

And on topic... I have opened TFA flavors 2 years old that I mixed regularly. Simply stored in a cool, dark basement. Don't notice any kind of taste changes from my last batch.

 

[Kurt]

Hi Danny,
From what little I have read, synthetics will not really benefit from cold (fridge/freezer) storage, though it shouldn't hurt either (other than possible crystallization as the WL statement mentioned; and that is generally reversible after bringing back to room temp.).
I believe Dr. Kurt Kestler ( @Kurt here on ECF) (who is a chemist at Penn State - Brandywine), in the VPLive vape Team Episode #82 (I think you've referenced this in other posts), talked a bit about this. And his position was (this is my recollection and Kurt is not responsible for my possible misrepresentation): that as long as (synthetic) flavorings are stored in in glass, with a good cap (like a poly cone cap), as little headspace as reasonably possible, and kept in a cool dark place (like a closet, cupboard, or drawer), the flavoring is possible to last indefinitely. He does say there will be a flavor "change" as the volatile compounds escape (minimized with glass and cap but will still occur each time the cap is opened and can be accelerated by excessive headspace). He offer no opinion on organics as he does not condone their use (too many sugars and compounds with combustion points too low for recommended safe vaping).
I have no personal experience with organics other than one tobacco absolute (TA). I do keep the concentrated paste in the refrigerator but I keep the 15mL dilution at room temp with my other flavorings. I tried refrigerating the dilution, but it separated way too quickly, and it was difficult to shake back into the base. It still separates at room temp but can quickly be shaken back into suspension.
I have no scientific basis for storing the TA concentrate in the fridge. But, I reasoned that it is a derivative from plant matter, and therefore I was concerned about spoilage (and I just haven't had the guts to try freezing it yet).
Thanks for another interesting topic and the invitation to share!

@IDJoel brings up a very good point. It is assumed here that the flavors are synthetic, and not whole food extracts, which have indeterminate shelf lives, and probably should not be vaped anyway.

For typical, nonorganic flavors I store in well-sealed glass at room temperature, and mine have stayed stable for years. I don't see an issue with cooling them, but like nic solution, they should be brought to room temp before opening.

It is possible that tobacco absolute will become more difficult to buy in the future, due to regulatory and/or insurance reasons, since it contains real tobacco, but this has nothing to do with storage of it, and is a bit OT. I do not know the shelf life of TA in pure form, as a thick tar-like liquid, but an alcohol and/or PG solution stored in glass should last indefinitely.

 

[IDJoel]

Hey Kurt,
Glad you chimed in!

but like nic solution, they should be brought to room temp before opening.

I have always brought my nic up to room temp out of necessity (just way too thick to work with easily), but I'm curious why flavorings "should" be as well (unless they are VG based; then that seems like a no-brainer).

but this has nothing to do with storage of it, and is a bit OT.

Sorry, I'm still a Newb when it comes to abbreviations; what's "OT?" Outrageously Thick?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

OT = Off Topic

 

[IDJoel]

OT = Off Topic

I'm so ashamed... <"please excuse Joel as we wipe the drool from his chin">
Thank you Sugar_and_Spice

 

[Kurt]

Hey Kurt,
Glad you chimed in!

I have always brought my nic up to room temp out of necessity (just way too thick to work with easily), but I'm curious why flavorings "should" be as well (unless they are VG based; then that seems like a no-brainer).

Sorry, I'm still a Newb when it comes to abbreviations; what's "OT?" Outrageously Thick?

No problem, Joel. Anything very cold if open to the air will condense water onto it from the air. But, again, I've had no problem with flavors stored in glass at room temperature.

 

[dannyv45]

Thank you Kurt for chiming in and I must admit "Bring up to room temps" even got past me and it should have been so obvious to me about condensation Great point...thank you.

Also another great point you made is in regards to raw TA in paste form and if I may expand on that. If you intend to store it for the long hall it would be best to first mix it down by 50 % with grain alcohol and store that in glass as well. It can be diluted down further as it gets used.

Kurt, Another thought I had would be what would be your opinion on Flavoring made with pure tobacco essence such as Hangsen flavors. As these are PG based flavors how well do you think these would store? And do you have any tips on storing those such as adding a small amount of alcohol to those to preserve freshness and bottling in glass?

 

[Kurt]

I made essence from pipe tobacco in VG years ago. It has remained stable in LDPE at room temp. No separation, gases forming or precipitation. The VG probably preserved it, or else there wasn't anything "living" in it in the first place. Flavor deepened and mellowed over time, the only change I detected years after making it. PG would probably preserve same as VG, maybe more (if that matters), but I've no data on that.

 

[2legsshrt]

Well I'm going to email Phil Busardo and ask him what he knows about it. He is working with a large company to develope his own juice line. I know that on the video he made of the place that will make the juice stores there flavors in a refrigerated room. They use a lot of FA flavorings and make juice for about 40 juice companies and they said 20 of them are large, high quantity juice sellers. Think I'll see what he know usually gets back to me the same day or the next.

 

[dannyv45]

Thank you Kurt. So what I would guess is, what has previously been discussed here for synthetic flavors would also apply to "flavorings with essence" as well as TA's (with alcohol added) and NET's. NET's in my case would not be much of a concern as I only make enough NET to last a few months.

 

[2legsshrt]

Well Phil Busardo got back to me and he said if your not going to use your flavors right away refrigerate and nic in the freezer

 

[Debadoo]

I would presume that Busardo is saying this because it's what the chemists at Molecule lab told him. Our resident chemist Kurt says it's ok. But the RTS chemist says they shouldn't even be refrigerated. It's possible he says this because he says they should be used within about 9 months, well, that's not gonna happen for most of us even before but especially not going forward. Here's the thread, the relevant posts are on page 2 post 35, and hopefully this one will go to the correct post, but if not I think it's post 69 on whatever page post 69 is on. Page 4 I think
Ask The Chemist

 

[rasmith1959]

That's a good short term solution but my concern is FDA regulation and if flavoring will be readily available in the future. I'm thinking in terms of decades and not years. Sure marketing stratigies can change to get around FDA regulation but I for see a far poorer selection of flavorings such as inawera or hangsen in the future. But for this topic I'd like to keep FDA out of it for now I don't want this to turn into a discussion on FDA regulation.

In my opinion I don't see how the FDA can hamper the sale of PG, VG, and flavorings as these are food grade products and have other uses besides making e-liquid. To me the part that I'm worried about is the nicotine base, as they can outright ban it's sale to the public, or tax the out of it. Granted there may be a reduction in what flavors are available here in the USA, but I'm sure that a European company like Inawera or Flavour Arts would be more than happy to fill the void.

 

[dannyv45]

New marketing procedure will likely provide workaround solutions for most flavorings but tobacco flavorings may be harder to work around as they will be assumed targeted towards the vaping community. You are correct about Nicotine I don't think there will be a simple work around solution for that and what ever is available will sky rocket in price. Also a big issue is going to be vaping hardware. With the tight and expensive FDA requirements imposed on those devices most will be gone from the market and what do remain on the market will be prohibitively expensive to the average vaper.

It is also very unclear how importing non sanctioned FDA products such as flavoring, Nicotine or hardware will be handled by the US.

Are they going to require FDA approval on Items intended for resale?
Are they going to ban delivery to non resale private households?

 

[Debadoo]

In my opinion I don't see how the FDA can hamper the sale of PG, VG, and flavorings as these are food grade products and have other uses besides making e-liquid. To me the part that I'm worried about is the nicotine base, as they can outright ban it's sale to the public, or tax the out of it. Granted there may be a reduction in what flavors are available here in the USA, but I'm sure that a European company like Inawera or Flavour Arts would be more than happy to fill the void.

I know Danny doesn't want this to get into an FDA discussion and I don't want to steer it that way, but another possibility after watching PB's video on Molecule labs that concerns me somewhat, is that if the regs aren't drastically changed to allow small businesses to stay open......the way they were talking about it is that places like them (molecule labs) are and will continue to be buying flavoring by the drums in some cases. (they use a lot f FA and CAP) If small businesses aren't buying quite a bit of flavoring in smaller amts, I wonder if they'll continue bottling it in small amts to sell to DIY'ers. Perhaps they will since they did this before DIY was a thing, but I dunno. I wasn't concerned about flavorings except perhaps tobacco ones til then.

 

[dannyv45]

I know Danny doesn't want this to get into an FDA discussion and I don't want to steer it that way, but another possibility after watching PB's video on Molecule labs that concerns me somewhat, is that if the regs aren't drastically changed to allow small businesses to stay open......the way they were talking about it is that places like them (molecule labs) are and will continue to be buying flavoring by the drums in some cases. (they use a lot f FA and CAP) If small businesses aren't buying quite a bit of flavoring in smaller amts, I wonder if they'll continue bottling it in small amts to sell to DIY'ers. Perhaps they will since they did this before DIY was a thing, but I dunno. I wasn't concerned about flavorings except perhaps tobacco ones til then.

You bring up a very good point about how the reduction of smaller quantity flavoring orders will also impact the way larger flavoring suppliers do business by no longer offering these smaller quantity orders. Just that fact alone will put these small businesses out of business. Talk about your trickle down effect.

FDA is a valid talking point and we got pretty good points on preserving flavoring here already. So I'm having a change of heart so if you want to talk about FDA it's fine by me.

 

[Debadoo]

FDA is a valid talking point and we got pretty good points on preserving flavoring here already. So I'm having a change of heart so if you want to talk about FDA it's fine by me.

kewl. So what are your thoughts about flavoring companies possibly only sellin to big time labs by the drums instead of still selling small amts if the FDA isn't reigned in and most or all small businesses go OOB?

 

[dannyv45]

Talk about your trickle down effect. You also need to realize this effect can also have an influence on other aspects of vaping not just flavoring. What about Nicotine? If it is regulated not only will it make it expensive to get it in small quantities but what if the demand is now so low that the manufactures require you to buy that in larger quantities.