”Cheating” on the Molicel new battery poll...really?

[Mooch]

Even with proof in hand you can't admit to the scratch on your rose colored glasses. I'm sorry Mooch, I really don't mean to be offensive. I really don't care about external batteries. I know I looked at the poll, not sure if or what I voted for. But if the poll was borked... It's borked! Invalid! I would much rather have the decision come from you than a flawed poll of a community with too high a percentage of members whose desire is whatever the marketers tell them to desire.

That marketer asked your opinion because they value it. I'm sure they intend to market to more than just this tiny ECF community. The entire vaping world might benefit from it. Ya gotta give the answer that's right. Dontcha think?

Moli asked me, not a marketer. The info was for their engineers, not their marketing department or a marketing firm.

Okay, yea, the poll did not work out well at all. So what? I tried to have the community add their voice to my feedback and it didn’t work out well. That’s hindsight though.

I’m still giving the engineers my thoughts. Nothing has been lost here. Nothing has been compromised here. The only one who paid a price for the existence of this poll is me.

 

[Mooch]

I'm not sure I even submitted my initial vote, because I felt too discouraged by the setup :ß Sorry.

No vote because Google Forms didn’t format things well?
No problem, send me thoughts via PM.

I only knew about Google Forms so I used them.

 

[Mooch]

I'm not sure I even submitted my initial vote, because I felt too discouraged by the setup :ß Sorry.

There are many websites for setting up polls, and many do not require any form of sign-up from the pollees.

Which site do you recommend that prevents multiple identical votes without a sign-up?

 

[Letitia]

Even with proof in hand you can't admit to the scratch on your rose colored glasses. I'm sorry Mooch, I really don't mean to be offensive. I really don't care about external batteries. I know I looked at the poll, not sure if or what I voted for. But if the poll was borked... It's borked! Invalid! I would much rather have the decision come from you than a flawed poll of a community with too high a percentage of members whose desire is whatever the marketers tell them to desire.

That marketer asked your opinion because they value it. I'm sure they intend to market to more than just this tiny ECF community. The entire vaping world might benefit from it. Ya gotta give the answer that's right. Dontcha think?

I agree. I didn’t take the poll because I simply don't understand batteries well and need people like Mooch to make these recommendations on my behalf.

 

[Mooch]

It was just a casual poll guys...that’s it. Just a quick idea to include the community in on something.

Can we sit here now and say it should have been done differently? Of course! It didn’t work out well. But so what? The results do not have to be used and nothing in the poll negates any thoughts I give them.

I wanted to include the community in all this. This will NEVER be thought of by me as a negative thing. I created a poll to do this and some in the community spiked the poll results. Live and learn.

If you have specific suggestions for improving future polls, I welcome them! Links, etc., are appreciated. But what site prevents multiple identical votes without registering somehow?

 

[Barkuti]

Hello!
Sooo, what did I missed?
I hear through the grapevine a poll got messed up and lots of votes went into making a nice high discharge 26650 cell for whatever reason. It is not a bad idea, though for the same reason I'd also advocate for a 14500 maybe. I believe what many of you want is to get the current high discharge chemistry technology present in 18650/20-21700 cells in other formats like 26650, and why not bring it into 18350s and 14500s too.
For example, filling a 26650 can with HG2/30Q/VTC6 roll technology and chemistry would net 6+Ah of capacity per cell with a bit less than half the internal resistance of the popular (PLB) Shockli notIMR26650 5500mAh. That would probably net it a 35A continuous rating without surpassing the usual 80°C cut-off I think, and delivering slightly higher voltage though I understand this depends on chemistry too. Well, more or less. And if I am to speak of how that would fare in a 14500 or 18350 can compared to the current offerings, the difference would be even greater even if the current 18350 top dog doesn't looks too bad. Just speculation, of course.
Security wise I think current cells aren't that bad. Users must understand they are the source of their own safety and comply with safe practices. Better safe than sorry, you know.
The flashlight world would also benefit with the newer cells, some crazy folks are even using Sammie 30Ts LoL.
Oh well, back to my den.

Cheers

 

[untar]

But what site prevents multiple identical votes without registering somehow?

for example
Straw Poll
is a widely used one.

Be aware that any such easy access site only can make it much harder for a poll crasher, not impossible.

 

[Mooch]

for example
Straw Poll
is a widely used one.

Be aware that any such easy access site only can make it much harder for a poll crasher, not impossible.

Ahh...IP checking, nice. Thanks!

 

[Violetti Usva]

Hello!
Sooo, what did I missed?
I hear through the grapevine a poll got messed up and lots of votes went into making a nice high discharge 26650 cell for whatever reason. It is not a bad idea, though for the same reason I'd also advocate for a 14500 maybe. I believe what many of you want is to get the current high discharge chemistry technology present in 18650/20-21700 cells in other formats like 26650, and why not bring it into 18350s and 14500s too.
For example, filling a 26650 can with HG2/30Q/VTC6 roll technology and chemistry would net 6+Ah of capacity per cell with a bit less than half the internal resistance of the popular (PLB) Shockli notIMR26650 5500mAh. That would probably net it a 35A continuous rating without surpassing the usual 80°C cut-off I think, and delivering slightly higher voltage though I understand this depends on chemistry too. Well, more or less. And if I am to speak of how that would fare in a 14500 or 18350 can compared to the current offerings, the difference would be even greater even if the current 18350 top dog doesn't looks too bad. Just speculation, of course.
Security wise I think current cells aren't that bad. Users must understand they are the source of their own safety and comply with safe practices. Better safe than sorry, you know.
The flashlight world would also benefit with the newer cells, some crazy folks are even using Sammie 30Ts LoL.
Oh well, back to my den.

Cheers

Why do I get the feeling that about 400 of those votes were you...

P.S Totally misread that as "the fleshlight world"

 

[mimöschen]

I think not, but what do I know? Just judging from the feedback here on ECF in the thread where the poll was introduced, performance and battery size were the more common responses; in my opinion selfish responses. Very few were safety related which benefits everyone.

Ah ok. It's selfish to wish for a safe and reliable high performance cell?
Seeing all those stupid people out there bragging with their horribly overrated Trustfire crap, is something that concerns me a lot more than shorted positive poles, which btw still can happen if they'd change the cans.
That said, changing the cans involves much more costs, because the whole production process has to be changed, which would result in a much higher price per cell - which Johnny Average won't be willing to pay. They want high performance for low costs. You can't change the nature of the beast.

A good compromise would be to utilize the same insulator and wraps that Golisi offers. So far those are the best I've ever seen on any cell so far.

 

[Robin Becker]

A good compromise would be to utilize the same insulator and wraps that Golisi offers. So far those are the best I've ever seen on any cell so far.

Did you try to short-circuit Golisi Battery and see, what happens to the Wrap? most probably will melt with fire drops...Those colored wraps do not suit Li-Ion batteries, but moreover coming from Ni-Mh.
You can see some movies on youtube involving Trustfire and Ultrafire...the wrap (skin) is similar material.

 

[Barkuti]

It could be a good idea to do some actual “short circuit” testing in at least a good handful of cells from diverse OEMs and cell construction technology. When HKJ reviewed the Shockli notIMR26650 5500mAh he reported the following mishap, located between the capacity and 15A discharge temperature graphics in his review:

The two cells are very well matched and as usual I test them a bit above specifications. They handled 20A fine, but did not like 30A continuous, it blew a fuse inside both cells, preventing me from doing the rest of the tests

I do recall having read in some thread at BLF this safety “feature” is not permanent, it resets itself after some time.
As I say above maybe Mooch would be willing to design some short of “short circuit testing procedure” and perform it in some OEM cells. Like spot welding a nickel tab between cathode and anode or soldering a nice wire between the two points. Oh well, maybe we can come up with something better. In the meantime grab some lidded steel buckets or a small strongbox LoL.
Take care.

Cheers

 

[Hawise]

If you have specific suggestions for improving future polls, I welcome them! Links, etc., are appreciated.

I would repeat the poll, but with this change:
Group the answers by topics, and require pollees to give a score of 1-10 (not important to very important) to EACH of the answers in the poll... the results would be a much more detailed source of information.

Like tailland, I was rather overwhelmed by the number of options in the poll. There were, I think, about 4 or 5 answers I liked equally well, and it seems everything gets lost in a muddle with so many possible responses.

I really like the idea of a thematic approach. You might consider breaking it into topics like safety; performance; availability and pricing; cell sizes; and that type of thing. I think that could work well either with a ranking system or, if that isn't possible, a straight vote with a possible follow-up poll on items from the top topic(s).

Mooch, I really appreciate all the work you do and the value you place on our opinions.

 

[Jwaterski]

Thank you for asking for input Mooch, that said, you are by far the battery expert and whatever the poll or anyone else's opinion is, I would defer to your expertise on any recommendation for changes/improvements their engineers concentrate on. At the end of the day, you have proven the be the most trustworthy, well informed advocate for all vapors. I doubt there is anyone else that could provide a better answer to the manufacturers question. Again, thank you, for all you do to make vaping safer for us all!

 

[mimöschen]

Did you try to short-circuit Golisi Battery and see, what happens to the Wrap? most probably will melt with fire drops...Those colored wraps do not suit Li-Ion batteries, but moreover coming from Ni-Mh.
You can see some movies on youtube involving Trustfire and Ultrafire...the wrap (skin) is similar material.

If you short circuit a battery although the wrap/insulator is intact, there's something wrong, no matter how "safe" the cell itself might be.
The most problems come from torn wraps/insulators, so it's better to make them thick and durable enough so they don't tear in the first place.
Btw, did you do those tests with the wraps that nearly everyone uses to rewrap damaged ones?

 

[tailland]

Ahh...IP checking, nice. Thanks!

IP checks are one thing. Good for most scenarios, bad for people who access the web from within the same institution (uni, company,..). Another thing: Confirmation Emails; a one-time mail sent to the pollee, with a backlink that confirms that they received the msg.
Cheaters might still try to create throwaway mail addresses, but those are easy to filter. Google forms has several add-ons which will create those confirmation emails for you. Other than that, Forms is nice and simple to deal with.

 

[Robin Becker]

If you short circuit a battery although the wrap/insulator is intact, there's something wrong, no matter how "safe" the cell itself might be.
The most problems come from torn wraps/insulators, so it's better to make them thick and durable enough so they don't tear in the first place.
Btw, did you do those tests with the wraps that nearly everyone uses to rewrap damaged ones?

We did once an experiment at the University with PVC Shrink and they didn´t catch fire, just shrinked...but I saw once how an Ultrafire battery becomes a small torch...

 

[untar]

IP checks are one thing. Good for most scenarios, bad for people who access the web from within the same institution (uni, company,..). Another thing: Confirmation Emails; a one-time mail sent to the pollee, with a backlink that confirms that they received the msg.

You can also enable a captcha on strawpoll, going through ip checking plus a captcha is a bit more elaborate for a script than connecting and selecting an option 420 times which everyone with basic web scripting knowledge should be able to do (I assume that's what happened because who in their right mind would reload a page manually over 400 times for a battery poll).

Email check isn't too bad but in my experience it reduces the number of voters, not what you want when you think you had too few in the first place.

 

[mimöschen]

We did once an experiment at the University with PVC Shrink and they didn´t catch fire, just shrinked...but I saw once how an Ultrafire battery becomes a small torch...

Point is, when the temp of the cell is that high that a wrap catches fire, you f**ed things up big time a lot earlier anyway.

 

[Barkuti]

My take is “let them cheat all they want” and deal with the consecuences. In the days of roleplaying board games it was said the good masters kept a handful of apricot kernels to be undercover rolled instead of the actual dices in cases of need. This is like saying a good master didn't really cared about dice results.
There are ways to overcome this, for example a forum's membership requirement. In BLF we can make polls but only registered users can once vote.

Cheers