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”Cheating” on the Molicel new battery poll...really?

Discussion in 'Batteries and Chargers' started by Mooch, Nov 2, 2018.

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  1. Barkuti

    Barkuti Super Member ECF Veteran

    Curious term “railroading”. Years ago I played some AD&D with friends, the apricot kernels thing was never even imagined as any player concerning dice rolls were made publicly, and the ambient was always rather competitive, sarcastic and :D ball breaking LoL. We rarely played single session modules, and even when we did it was rather unusual to finish the round the way it was meant LMAO.
    We even played some Paranoia. Zap, zap zap! BOOOM! :lol:

    Cannot, cannot :facepalm: agree sorry. I like open standards and that would end up smelling like what happens with laptop batteries, with small microcontrollers inside even deciding when your battery should die. Because if the standards are not open, chances to home rebuild or fix a battery like that would be slim and their market price would be expensive. This is what happens when a laptop battery's circuitry decides to “commit suicide” disabling an otherwise repairable pack. It is easy to replace the cells, but the battery microcontroller documentation is usually kept away from Joe/Jane Sixpack.
    Doable? Maybe.

    1S 15A Li ion BMS PCM Battery Protection Board PCM for 18650 Lithium Lion Battery-in Integrated Circuits from Electronic Components & Supplies on | Alibaba Group
    How “good” do these actually work don't know, but can be stacked.

    Mooch, you just need to establish the testing procedure(s). There's people :rolleyes: who would be willing to do the dirty work probably for a small fee. Take a look at these Ukrainian professionals' performance in their backyard:


    Cheers ;)
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Robin Becker

    Robin Becker Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 3, 2018
    That is not correct. PCM is doing the same Job like a BMS, but in smaller size of battery packs and with less functions (balancing, communication etc.).
    In a case of short circuit, the PCM will "block" any flow of energy from the battery. But I believe, that the solution should be inserted into the mod like in small Power-tools like in this one:
    The battery is soldered and connected to the integrated electronics of the Screwdriver.
  3. Barkuti

    Barkuti Super Member ECF Veteran

    Baditude has a point here, which is that the battery PCB is usually located at the cell rear, attached to the negative pole at its bottom. This cannot protect from a side wrap tear short-circuit, for example. And since the N-channel MOSFETs need a little bit of power to operate a thin strip must come from the cell's positive pole above the stock wrap and/or some other means of electrical isolation into the PCB (!). A few newer and some brand name rewrapper protected cells do feature the protection circuit on top of the positive pole, which concerning safety is a lot better because of the usual cell anatomy (with the exception of A123 Systems). And anyway, due to size and cooling limitations one cannot expect outstanding power handling from such BMS in any case.

    Cheers :)
    • Like Like x 1
  4. mimöschen

    mimöschen Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2016
    Railroading means the DM dictates the story whitout the players having any influence on the outcome.
    Which almost always involves fake dicerolls from the DM.
    Yes, Paranoia was fun:lol:

    Interchangeable batterypacks don't offer any real advantages in comparison to an internal battery mod. The effort to manufacture and integrate those packs is a lot higher, the size increases significantly, and aside from being a proprietary "standard" increases the overall costs immensely.

    We're always talking about those evil rewrappers, but enclosed packs won't solve that problem. On the contrary, it makes it even easier for them to cheat, because you won't ever know what cells are inside a pack without disassembling it completely and therefore rendering it useless.

    To mention Smok as a company to manufacture those packs is a joke, right?
    You really want a company to manufacture safe batterypacks that has been repeatedly caught cheating on the specs of their internal batteries? Right, makes perfect sense.:?:

    Sorry, but the whole idea results in a nicheproduct at its best, in an outright dead birth at its worst.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. untar

    untar Vaping Master

    Feb 7, 2018
    Well, they're interchangable. You can change a battery according to your vape style, high CDR or high capacity. You can carry a backup battery. You don't have to throw away the device when the battery dies, which consumers may want in a mod that costs $100-$200.
    I'd say those are some pretty real advantages.
    Sadly they're pretty much the only ones who could pull it off on their own imo. Eg Lost Vape or Tesla simply don't have the money or logistics to do that. Maybe Joyetech or Innokin but they seem to be very behind in the "normal" mod game, I rarely see anyone with a device made by them (apart from the endura and aio).

    However I don't think they would do it anyways... it's just about who would even be able to.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. mimöschen

    mimöschen Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2016
    Whether you throw away a mod or a batterypack doesn't make much of a difference concerning costs if you look at the prices of mainstream mods.
    Sure, highpriced DNAs-, YiHi- or compareable devices would benefit a lot more, but those are still nicheproducts, because a lot of people can't afford them or simply don't want to pay that much for a mod.
    The batterypack-system needs to be suitable for the massmarket to be competitive and become a "standard" though.

    I think with their subdivisions Wismec and Eleaf, Joyetech has been quite busy with releasing mods in the past few months.
    Although they are more creative than most of the other companies around, they're not my prefered choice for batterypack assembly either.
  7. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    You have to look at the larger picture. In the US vaping is under threat which any enforcement from the FDA could very well mold the industry. Standards are not necessary what an end user wants, but what is needed to keep the industry from becoming fragmented due to many different proprietary designs. It has also been predicted by market analyst that the vaping market will grow from 11 billion in 2017 to ~80 to 90 billion is 2025/26. That is quite a significant increase which will invite more and more companies and without standards, more and more proprietary designs.

    I suspect Smok was brought up in this conversation simply because of their resources and being a market leader – does not mean they are the right company for the job. We are just being armchair analysts and discussing openly. However, when trying to establish a standard, a market leader such as Smok can be beneficial given their influence on the industry. But Smok or whom ever cannot not do this alone – multiple companies need to agree and follow the proposed standard…the more the better. And to do this efficiently, a 3rd party panel of experts needs to be establish to manage this project.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. mimöschen

    mimöschen Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2016
    But with internal battery mods there is already an alternative for US vapers that Smok&Co make already a considerable profit with and most of all fulfills all the safety criteria. And a product that can be sold worldwide is always better than a product that's specific to only one market.
    So I just think your wish for changeable batterypacks is just that. Wishful thinking;)
  9. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    Actually, I am not thinking wishfully at all. As it stands I am quite content with the current cells, I do not want change. However, if regulations within a region are imposed that could very well mold the industry, I would rather prefer a standard that would work across multiple or all devises oppose to proprietary designs. The US is an extremely large market, it can and does dictate the rest of the industry. And you are correct, developing a product that can be sold worldwide is better, hence coming up with a standard. Imagine how fragmented the industry would be if companies developed imperial threaded designs for the US market and metric threaded designs for the rest of the world? The industry would be an absolute mess.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. mimöschen

    mimöschen Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 15, 2016
    So why did they go with metric units, if the US dictate the market? That doesn't make sense.
  11. Punk In Drublic

    Punk In Drublic Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Aug 28, 2018
    Toronto, ON
    It was an example of how a non standard industry can become fragmented
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. dripster

    dripster Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 18, 2017
    • Love Love x 1
  13. Violetti Usva

    Violetti Usva Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 1, 2017
    I was drinking a Godson cocktail and now my nose is coated with burning cream.

    P.S. I'm surprised the researchers for #3 didn't just attach a generator to the hampster wheel and replace their water with a low-concentration amphetamine-sucrose solution to harness energy. Together, both methods might generate enough to power a tootle-puffer :D
    • Like Like x 1
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