Has anyone looked into 321 stainless steel? It is quite common in the aircraft industry and is known as .020 safety wire which equals out to 24ga.
304 / 316 SS and TC
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I got my first roll of 316L SS in from Eciggity. It's the UD branded roll (30ft for like $6-7 if I remember correctly). I tried navigating that Unkamen and medical site and couldn't find anything clearly described as 304 or 316 so I just went with the UD. I think I made a mistake getting 24g as it took 10 wraps spaced to make a dual coil build around .28 ohms to use for "taste control" in my iJoy Asolo. And then the ramp up is crazy. It acts like Kanthal 22g. Takes 95 watts to get almost instant vaporization. I'm still confused as whether to dry burn this and do contact coils or not. In any case, the flavor seems pretty good considering. I'll try to get my hands on some 26g next.
yer I dry burn it and do contact coils it just heats up really quickly and has a relatively low melting point so just turn down the watts and dont let that coil get to hot otherwise your coil will be destroyed.
Yer I got 28 gauge to start off i'm going to twist that stuff its way to thin.... I also got the UD stuff its got a slight yellowy sheen to it now after pulsing it while making a contact coil is that normal??
I don't think that's a good thing... I suggest you ditch that and start over. A major danger from using SS in vaping is the possible formation of Hexavalent Chromium, which is highly carcinogenic. When you heat SS lightly, the chromium can form an oxide layer that actually helps its corrosive resistance and prevents other metal components in it (nickel, manganese, etc.) from leaching out, much like the Alumina Oxide layer that forms on Kanthal. With that being said, that oxide layer on SS is very delicate and can be broken by scratching or any light friction I believe. And if an SS coil is heated to the point where it forms that protective layer, and the layer is broken, the other metal components are even more likely to leach out. Hexavalent Chromium should only form at higher temps though, but from what I understand this temperature is achievable through dry burning.
HENCE my hesitance to dry burning the SS. I don't even dry burn it lightly because while I would like to form that protective chromium oxide layer, I'm really not sure how easy it is to break and how to notice if it is broken. I just hope that without adding any heat at all during the coil building process, and while using low wattage and temp control, the SS is safe from leaching and from reaching a temp where it will unevenly oxidize.
Right now I only use SS in two ways. I started building with it in RDAs but I use it on an iJoy Asolo. So I vape an "un-dry-burned" coil at low wattages to train it, bump it up a little higher to my liking, vape it again, then check under the lid to see any color changes especially around the legs. Then I switch over to the "taste control" setting on the Asolo which limits the temp in a "temp control" manner to avoid dry hits. The other way I use SS is the pre-built coils for my Crown which I use on a Koopor Mini in Titanium Mode. It definitely works, its just weird because I have to turn the temp up to 570-600 degrees F to get the vape I like, but it doesn't kick it back to wattage mode like it does with anthill.
I'd really love to do twisted and clapton coils in the future with SS or Titanium like some have already done. But I fear the hot spots that I know will be present without dry burning and fiddling. I'm waiting to get a DNA 200 device and see that tech advance and more people do it to where we can say a temp control device can definitely still work and work accurately on an SS or Titanium coil that has been twisted or claptoned.
Hmmm you sure this is the first i've ever hear of this, Ive left empty SS saucepans of the stove for to long and they never formed a yellow sheen to them...... seriously are all metals trying to kill me I thought SS was as safe as it could possible be as its used and heated in so many applications!
EDIT Ok just did some reading could not find and definitive answers but it does seem possible to it to be released at high temperatures and if placed in a highly corrosive environment anyone know what the safe limits are??
Every time I go for a new wire I get told that actually if it gets to hot or if X happens dangerous chemical will be produced and then i go back to kanthal its not as though I think there likely to kill me it more so why bother taking a risk of additional lung damage when you really get pretty decent flavour of a decent kanthal coil... so please convince me that SS16 is pretty safe
thanks JJ6404 for the info
EDIT Ok just did some reading could not find and definitive answers but it does seem possible to it to be released at high temperatures and if placed in a highly corrosive environment anyone know what the safe limits are??
Every time I go for a new wire I get told that actually if it gets to hot or if X happens dangerous chemical will be produced and then i go back to kanthal its not as though I think there likely to kill me it more so why bother taking a risk of additional lung damage when you really get pretty decent flavour of a decent kanthal coil... so please convince me that SS16 is pretty safe
thanks JJ6404 for the info
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Just in case anyone is interested.. I just decided to give 316 stainless steel a try. Hear good things about it. I dont use TC or high wattage. Pretty much 1.0 ohms on mechs. I found this on Ebay and it seemed like a good deal even with Canadian shipping
Your SS saucepan on your stove will never get to temperature that your SS coil can get when dry-burning on your mod. Think about it, have you ever seen your saucepan glow red hot? You can get your coils upwards of 5000 degrees F on a mod.
And dude, you go back to Kanthal because you think its safe? Everybody thinks kanthal is the safest just because it's the one we've been using the longest for vaping. How long is that? Around 6 years??? 7?? That's not even close enough to a long enough time to measure long-term health effects. And the speculations and doubts have already come out for Kanthal. Kanthal is not "heat-proof". It, like SS, forms a protective oxide layer that prevents further oxidation at safe levels. Heating it further than that or letting it corrode can definitely lead to unsafe oxidation and leaching of the metal.The alumina oxide layer that forms on kanthal after light dry-burning is grayish in color. Have you ever dry-burned and dry-burned a Kanthal coil until it was brown and rusty-looking? One of the main components of kanthal is iron...
The only thing we can say for sure now about the wires we use is that only time will tell. But from the research I've done, I can confidently say a few things...
First of all the facts:
- Stainless Steel and Titanium are the only two biocompatible materials that we use for vaping right now
- Nickel is carcinogenic
- Titanium dioxide (formed by heating titanium to unsafe levels) is carcinogenic
- Hexavalent chromium (formed by heating SS, Nichrome, and Kanthal [I think] to unsafe levels) is carcinogenic
What is generally known and accepted as true for now:
- Titanium non-dry-burned and used with temperature control is probably the cleanest and safest material for vaping right now
- SS non-dry-burned or lightly dry-burned used at safe levels without temp control or with temp control is probably the second cleanest and safest material for vaping right now
- Kanthal used at safe levels is probably the third safest material for vaping
- Nichrome only currently works with non-temperature control devices and so, because of its high concentration of nickel, is probably really unsafe to use for vaping
- Nickel is considered relatively safe ONLY in temp control use, but the risk outweighs the reward on this one. Now that temp control mods support titanium, why not just use titanium?
A little about titanium vs. nickel in temp control:
- Nickel has a much lower safe temperature limit than titanium
- If nickel is accidentally heated to an unsafe level, and toxic fumes are produced, you might not even know it
- If titanium is accidentally heated to an unsafe level, and toxic fumes are produced, the coil either completely disintegrates and dies, or a noticeable crusty white powder forms over the surface of the coils
- Titanium can be dry-burned within safe levels and used in contact coils and still be below the threshold for titanium dioxide production
- Nickel dry-burned can easily exceed its 600 degrees F safe zone and immediately start producing toxic fumes
Hexavalent Chromium is only released at a very high temperature(Ex: Welding, 3100°C, Oxy/Acy cutting torch 3500°C) you would actually have to be inhaling across RED glowing hot coils that were about to pop to even stand a chance of acquiring it from a SS coil, if it's even possible at all due to there being such a low percentage of chromium even available, keep in mind we're working with small diameter wires which dry burn for seconds not welding big fixtures and pipes together for weeks at a time. Dry burning is not an issue, if you're trying to be extra cautious I guess you could dry burn under your range hood for ventilation but it's not necessary.
According to this, it essentially has to be so hot it's melting(Plasma cutter, cutting torch, welding, etc)
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=112
I just bought a spool of 316l to try with tc....but not sure at which resistance I should be aiming. I'm pretty new to building and usually build ni200 to about 0.2/0.3 ohm....what's a good resistance for 316l for tc (single coil, non spaced) to build?
If any1 also knows the same for Ti (also got some spools of that) I would be gratefull!
If any1 also knows the same for Ti (also got some spools of that) I would be gratefull!
While that is true, dry-burning can still damage the protective layer of the SS allowing nickel and other metals to leach out. I just built my first SS contact coil and I was using it in wattage mode and got a dry hit and looked under the hood to see the legs turned blue and the coils are now yellow. I don't feel safe vaping this build anymore. There are no definitive guides out there yet on how to build SS contact coils correctly, are there? I want to use contact SS coils in my rdas but I don't have a temp control mod like a dna200 that will work with SS yet...
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While I have little proof I really doubt i was reaching those temperatures when dry burning because I was only letting the coil slightly glow in the center as i did not want it to be damaged.... At those temperatures surely the whole coil would collapses/break I know normal steel will start warping at around 900c..
Anyway an idea popped into my head earlier, is it possible that i'm just seeing 'hardened steel' effect that results from heating steel multiple times to temperature below the critical temperature....
I googled it and found the table for just plain steel not sure if it's similar for SS16L but down the bottom of the page anyway it claims if i heat normal steel up to 500-600c it will glow dull red, just visible - which is what my coils looked like when dry burning..
And secondly if its heated to 230c (446F) then rapidly cooled essentially what is happening to my coil it will get a yellowy appearance. Its sort of could explain it the only problem is SS316L is meant to have a extremely low carbon levels which means hardening is not really possible..... correct? so either UD is lying about there wire being 316L or something else is causing it other than Hexavalent Chromium (no way was i at 3000c pulsing dual coils 28g it at 16w)
http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/heat1.htm
If JJ6404 got a dry hit check his coil and it had changed color were talking about some seriously low temps required for this to happen....
I have been using SS contact coils for over six months, dry burned them hundreds of times, I've seen all of the colors you're talking about and they don't bother me in any way...that's what steel does when you heat it to specific temp! Nichrome 80 turns crazy violet pink and blue if it's exposed to the correct temperature, Even Kanthal, Titanium and other wires can and will turn crazy colors if you expose them to the correct temperatures. This chart is for Stainless Steel below;
It happens at a low enough temperature which will not cause the wire to degrade composition, please remember you need to be basically melting the wire to produce any sort of toxic fumes from it, as I stated before this is most common with welding. Most if not all of my 304 SS coils are heated to the point of glowing red/orange hot and allowed to cool, this gets past all of the color stages if you're cautious about seeing colors on your coil.
Here's one of my latest clapton builds which showed off a lot of colors, 304SS on 304SS - Color show!
To achieve those colors I barely fired the build at all, I tapped the button to warm it up a few times but not go over 700F, so I could get the blue.
It happens at a low enough temperature which will not cause the wire to degrade composition, please remember you need to be basically melting the wire to produce any sort of toxic fumes from it, as I stated before this is most common with welding. Most if not all of my 304 SS coils are heated to the point of glowing red/orange hot and allowed to cool, this gets past all of the color stages if you're cautious about seeing colors on your coil.
Here's one of my latest clapton builds which showed off a lot of colors, 304SS on 304SS - Color show!
To achieve those colors I barely fired the build at all, I tapped the button to warm it up a few times but not go over 700F, so I could get the blue.
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I have been using SS contact coils for over six months, dry burned them hundreds of times, I've seen all of the colors you're talking about and they don't bother me in any way...that's what steel does when you heat it to specific temp! Nichrome 80 turns crazy violet pink and blue if it's exposed to the correct temperature, Even Kanthal, Titanium and other wires can and will turn crazy colors if you expose them to the correct temperatures. This chart is for Stainless Steel below;
It happens at a low enough temperature which will not cause the wire to degrade composition, please remember you need to be basically melting the wire to produce any sort of toxic fumes from it, as I stated before this is most common with welding. Most if not all of my 304 SS coils are heated to the point of glowing red/orange hot and allowed to cool, this gets past all of the color stages if you're cautious about seeing colors on your coil.
Here's one of my latest clapton builds which showed off a lot of colors, 304SS on 304SS - Color show!
To achieve those colors I barely fired the build at all, I tapped the button to warm it up a few times but not go over 700F, so I could get the blue.
I knew that SS would change colors at certain temperatures like most metals do. For one, I didn't think that it would do it at such low temperatures. And two, I'm still concerned about the color changing temps weakening the anti-corrosive properties of the SS allowing nickel and other metals to leach out. I read (forgot where) that dry-burning SS would do this.
I used to pulse/dry-burn my Kanthal/Nichrome claptons and fused claptons until they were a rainbow of colors just like your pic. One day, I thought "how the hell could this be a good thing?" so I started to do some research that led me to throw all my Nichrome in a drawer and never use it again. Then I read Dr. Farsalino's bit about not dry-burning your Kanthal. I strictly used Kanthal for a long time because even when I did dry-burn it to set my fused claptons, it would only change color when I had to mess with them for a while to get out hot spots.
I know after reading a bunch of things that I decided dry-burning kanthal was an acceptable risk for me, but that what was more important was even oxidation. If the colors are a rainbow, is it not safe to assume that those different spots all got to different temperatures and the coil is being unevenly oxidized?
You're never going to get truly even oxidation firing coils on a mod, even the best performing coils heat up from the most central wrap outwards, so even if you were able to achieve perfect oxidation temperature in the middle wrap the wraps next to that will be cooler, and the ones next to that cooler still with varying levels of oxidation. You're picking this apart on a very small level which is hard for me to take in, because I'm assuming at one point in your life you smoked which we all know contains dozens of identified carcinogens...
Truthfully we won't really know until we actually get to long-term usage with both Kanthal and other wire types, there's just not enough data yet. Personally I hate Kanthal, I can taste the aluminum oxide layer which is why I specifically only use SS wire now and for what it's worth in my experience you need to go well past the rainbow of colors to properly oxidize SS for vape usage, I fire my coils until glowing orange and when they cool they cool off to a grey bare steel color, for reference check my post on page 3 which shows my old heavily dry burned wire in use.
If you want to perfectly oxidize your coils invest in a small kiln and fire them at 2000°F for an hour, otherwise you're going to have to make do with pulsing/dry burning of some kind unless you want to entirely forgo that process.
Cheers Froth for clearing that up I shall continue with SS out of interested you seem to know your SS what do you find is the best SS wise 316L 316 304 ect? or is there really no difference apart from a small shift in resistance?
If you don't understand, I'll explain it to you. Now that I have quit smoking and started vaping, something I never thought I could do, and vaping has so much more choices and customization than simply choosing between regulars or lights, I personally would like to vape the safest way possible. Sorry if that offends you.
Nextly, I would like to restate my concern of the metals leaching as I feel you didn't address that. I understand that toxic fumes in the form of hexavalent chromium take a very high amount of heat to produce. But what I'm concerned with is the possibility of stainless steel's anti-corrosive properties being weakened or damaged by the dry burning. If it doesn't look like stainless steel anymore, I don't believe it's exactly the stainless steel we expect with all its anti-corrosive properties fresh out of the box (or spool). If you somehow burned a SS pot until it was brown and black in parts, do you think it has the same stainless properties as when you first bought it and used it for cooking your food? We already know kanthal forms alumina oxide from very light dry burning. That is a physical or chemical change. That layer turns into something else after burning more. Just like the first chromium oxide layer may be safe but hexavalent chromium which is like the sixth level of oxidation or something occurs with a lot more heat. So I don't believe that in all those color changes to the dark "non-stainless steel" appearance, that it does not change in some way that we should explore further. Btw. I cannot find anyone or anywhere else that says to do what you do. Everything I've read and seen on YouTube says NOT to dry burn SS coils. Just because you're fine so far from doing it doesn't mine it's the best way to go.
P.S. - So after the dry hit I got with my first contact SS coil I built two others. TM rda, 24g 316L from UD. I did a dual coil 3mm ID 9 wrap at 0.17 ohms. And then a 2.4mm ID dual coil 12 wrap at around 0.2 ohms. Both builds I was hitting fine at 70-85 watts then suddenly, with both, I had a nasty throat scorching dry hit sensation. I looked inside to see both times that the wicks were fully saturated. The first coil had blue or black legs and one side had tilted and warped.
If SS can be used without temp control, then why is this happening? At 85 watts there was still a noticeable ramp up time. I can't imagine people using these coils on mechs without having this issue or worse.
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Kanthal contains more Chromium by volume than SS, which is why I've been so confused. You said you dry burn Kanthal so I'm just tying to get where you're going here... You'll dry burn a wire that has ~20% Chromium by volume but won't do it with SS which has ~10% by volume?
I said I used to dry-burn Kanthal. I haven't used Kanthal in a while now. And I was more comfortable dry-burning Kanthal a lot of people, including a metallurgist, said that it is ok to dry-burn kanthal just until the protective layer, the alumina oxide layer, forms. Stainless Steel is different. From all that I've read, SS has its protective layer right out of the box. From what I understand, dry-burning SS, especially through all the color changes like you do, would be like dry-burning Kanthal past that alumina oxide stage and degrading that protective layer that is already present when you get it.
I'm partial to 304, mostly because it's the least complex in chemical composition and it's generally considered the "food grade" or "surgical grade" steel. There's little to no performance difference between them from what I've seen, though to be fair I've only worked with 304, 316 and 316L.
We both know that there would need to be a very long in depth study to get to the final word on this subject, however the information I have come across in my time would lead me to believe that the oxide layer can survive what I'm throwing at it.
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=107
http://www.ssina.com/composition/temperature.html
- Note here that the intermittent service temperature for Stainless Steel is 1600°F and that the continuous temp is actually higher at 1700°F, this is because at 1600°F the thermal cycling of the steel will not allow it to expand and contract enough to destroy the oxide layer however at 1700°F if you were to continuously cycle the stainless steel a number of times you would find the oxide layer would crack off due to it not expanding and contracting in the same manner or at the same rate as the base metal, this would lead me to believe that the oxide layer is pretty robust and would explain why I have coils going on four months old built with 304 SS.
This is also a good read, this goes in to detail examining the oxide layer of Stainless Steel when exposed to high heat.
- https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/jpa-00252374/document
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Thanks for including all this info. I do definitely agree that we really don't know. I just want to be safe as possible man, you know? And believe me, I want the answer to be: yes, you can dry-burn SS to your hearts content. Because I want to build claptons and fused claptons and aliens with SS and dry-burn them till they glow evenly like I'm used to. I wanted to hear that a good chromium oxide layer forms, but another concern I read about that is the question whether we inhale that chromium oxide or not and if it is potentially harmful.
Anyway, do you think my hot leg and SS coil dry-hit issues stem from me not ensuring that they are heating evenly beforehand?
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