304 / 316 SS and TC

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Froth

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Thanks for including all this info. I do definitely agree that we really don't know. I just want to be safe as possible man, you know? And believe me, I want the answer to be: yes, you can dry-burn SS to your hearts content. Because I want to build claptons and fused claptons and aliens with SS and dry-burn them till they glow evenly like I'm used to. I wanted to hear that a good chromium oxide layer forms, but another concern I read about that is the question whether we inhale that chromium oxide or not and if it is potentially harmful.

Anyway, do you think my hot leg and SS coil dry-hit issues stem from me not ensuring that they are heating evenly beforehand?
Dry burning is an essential part of a properly performing coil in my eyes, take a look at Kanthal for a second as a reference.

When you dry burn a Kanthal coil, the reason it initially tries to short back and forth between the wraps is that the oxide layer isn't there to prevent the wraps from transferring current to one another, after a few dry burns the aluminum oxide layer forms which insulates the wraps from one another, allowing the coil to evenly heat and no longer transfer current from an adjacent wrap to another one.

This same thing happens with Stainless Steel, with a fresh brand new coil you will at times see the wraps trying to jump current from one wrap to another because the oxide layer hasn't formed yet, causing heating without being even, when you dry burn it a few times it forms the chromium oxide layer which does the same thing in practice that the Aluminum oxide layer does for the Kanthal coil, it insulates and keeps the current from jumping to an adjacent wrap.

Not only are you using non-oxidized SS when you forgo the dry burn process but you're also leaving yourself open for creating hot spots during use where the wire will get extremely hot in a very small area, some times just the size of a pin head can get extremely hot, my issue with this is that if you don't dry burn these spots out of the wire and get everything heating evenly then you're potentially leaving yourself open for another issue, those localized hot spots while very very small can get extremely hot extremely quickly which can either pop that segment of wire(and possibly release bad things), or cause a very nasty dry burn feeling during an inhale, or just be way too hot to actually vape off of however when you check the wicks they may still look wet because the excess heat came from the localized hot spot in the coil.
 

jj6404

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"An oxide layer that you can see by color change is not a protective oxide layer that is obtained by chemical passivation.

Heating the stainless steel to temperatures in excess 800F can cause metallurgical changes and reduce corrosion resistance in a manner that is not corrected by surface cleaning or chemical passivation."

From finishing.com which is some metal works website.


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jj6404

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"An oxide layer that you can see by color change is not a protective oxide layer that is obtained by chemical passivation.

Heating the stainless steel to temperatures in excess 800F can cause metallurgical changes and reduce corrosion resistance in a manner that is not corrected by surface cleaning or chemical passivation."

From finishing.com which is some metal works website.

I still think stainless steel may be one of the safest materials to vape with nowadays but only with temp control and spaced coils. This is just my opinion based on what little research is available but I don't personally feel safe vaping on blue or black SS that has been dry-burned. If you ever have somehow burned your SS frying pan so it was brown you would notice that it's anti-corrosive properties are diminished to a point. Food starts to stick to its brown parts. It becomes harder to clean. When comparing cookware to vaping, minor details become major. Nichrome and kanthal heating our toast in toasters may be fine but direct inhalation into our lungs hundreds of times a day is a multitude of exposure higher that has yet to be seriously considered or studied.

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Froth

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"An oxide layer that you can see by color change is not a protective oxide layer that is obtained by chemical passivation.

Heating the stainless steel to temperatures in excess 800F can cause metallurgical changes and reduce corrosion resistance in a manner that is not corrected by surface cleaning or chemical passivation."

From finishing.com which is some metal works website.

I still think stainless steel may be one of the safest materials to vape with nowadays but only with temp control and spaced coils. This is just my opinion based on what little research is available but I don't personally feel safe vaping on blue or black SS that has been dry-burned. If you ever have somehow burned your SS frying pan so it was brown you would notice that it's anti-corrosive properties are diminished to a point. Food starts to stick to its brown parts. It becomes harder to clean. When comparing cookware to vaping, minor details become major. Nichrome and kanthal heating our toast in toasters may be fine but direct inhalation into our lungs hundreds of times a day is a multitude of exposure higher that has yet to be seriously considered or studied.
Since you failed to provide a direct link to the information it doesn't really help anyone who would be looking for hard facts on the topic as there is no context or meaning to what is being said, we have no idea what that "quote" you've used is in reference to.

Thankfully the internet is easy, http://www.finishing.com/81/14.shtml
The surface discoloration on stainless steel after grinding or welding is surface oxidation. At elevated temperature, the metal comprising the stainless steel will combine with oxygen to form an oxide layer on the metal surface. The color of the "stain" is a function of the layer thickness. Oxidation of stainless steel indicates that the metal temperature at the oxidized surface was in excess of 1000F.

This surface oxide must be removed for the surface to be passivated and reach optimum corrosion resistance. An oxide layer that you can see by color change is not a protective oxide layer that is obtained by chemical passivation.

In addition, if you are causing a brown stain by grinding, you may be doing more damage to the material than forming a little surface oxide. Heating the stainless steel to temperatures in excess 800F can cause metallurgical changes and reduce corrosion resistance in a manner that is not corrected by surface cleaning or chemical passivation.
So, that's the "proof" you choose to cite? The underlined section clearly states that heat causes the oxide layer to form and the question was about the heat stain formed by mechanical grinding of stainless steel, nothing we're concerned with honestly. Plus that site deals mostly with chemical passivation to form an oxide layer. Now, the answer was that the protective oxide layer formed because of the color changing is not a chemical passivation oxide layer, but it's still an oxide layer. Context is important.

The very first sentence to that quote states clearly that the colorization is surface oxidation, and the bolded section states "this surface oxide must be removed before the product can be passivated" That is because before something is passivated it must be super duper microscopically clean, which of course means they would have to remove the natural oxide to put on a chemical passivation oxide layer.

The talk about the 800°F temperature says nothing about destroying the oxide layer, or removing it or rendering it useless, it states it can reduce corrosion resistance to a point that chemical passivation will not be able to revert, this says nothing about anything to do with the stainless steel entirely losing the oxide or corrosion properties or any real sort of information we're looking for.

Also, why keep going back to an analogy for stainless steel pots and pans? There's so much wrong with that analogy, stainless steel cookware is constantly exposed to acidic solutions in food(citric acid, for example) under high heat for extended periods of time and aggressively cleaned with abrasive products which can scratch pit the surface which will of course cause food to stick, there is also a HUGE surface area to deal with not to mention it may not even be the same alloy of stainless that you're using in vaping.

You are more than welcome to not do or do whatever you would like with Stainless Steel, but I feel like you're grasping for straws at this point.
 
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jj6404

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Since you failed to provide a direct link to the information it doesn't really help anyone who would be looking for hard facts on the topic as there is no context or meaning to what is being said, we have no idea what that "quote" you've used is in reference to.

Thankfully the internet is easy, http://www.finishing.com/81/14.shtml

So, that's the "proof" you choose to cite? The underlined section clearly states that heat causes the oxide layer to form and the question was about the heat stain formed by mechanical grinding of stainless steel, nothing we're concerned with honestly. Plus that site deals mostly with chemical passivation to form an oxide layer. Now, the answer was that the protective oxide layer formed because of the color changing is not a chemical passivation oxide layer, but it's still an oxide layer. Context is important.

The very first sentence to that quote states clearly that the colorization is surface oxidation, and the bolded section states "this surface oxide must be removed before the product can be passivated" That is because before something is passivated it must be super duper microscopically clean, which of course means they would have to remove the natural oxide to put on a chemical passivation oxide layer.

The talk about the 800°F temperature says nothing about destroying the oxide layer, or removing it or rendering it useless, it states it can reduce corrosion resistance to a point that chemical passivation will not be able to revert, this says nothing about anything to do with the stainless steel entirely losing the oxide or corrosion properties or any real sort of information we're looking for.

Also, why keep going back to an analogy for stainless steel pots and pans? There's so much wrong with that analogy, stainless steel cookware is constantly exposed to acidic solutions in food(citric acid, for example) under high heat for extended periods of time and aggressively cleaned with abrasive products which can scratch pit the surface which will of course cause food to stick, there is also a HUGE surface area to deal with not to mention it may not even be the same alloy of stainless that you're using in vaping.

You are more than welcome to not do or do whatever you would like with Stainless Steel, but I feel like you're grasping for straws at this point.
Sorry I didn't post a link. I was walking at work at the time. No need for the aggressive tones either bro. I'm not speaking gospel here. I'm just stating my opinion as I made sure to disclose. Thank you for clearing up that information here. I thought that's what this forum was for.

As for grasping for straws, I do disagree with that. I'd say that in my research, little as it may be, I've seen more warn against dry-burning SS than for it. And there's this simple logic: when you get good SS wire, it comes as stainless steel. It is already an alloy touted as anti-corrosive and biocompatible. That's why we use it for so many applications involving our bodies. We know heat can POSSIBLY degrade or destroy properties of a metal. I PERSONALLY AT THIS POINT would rather not risk it. I do think we should be more skeptical than readily accepting when it comes to vaping since it's what? 6-7 years old, if even that?

And please don't state the "you used to smoke and that was worse so why do you care now" argument. I'm so against that. I used to smoke, and that was really bad, yeah. So now that I'm not addicted to any specific type of wire or building technique, and I have some options, I'd like to be as safe as I can while still satisfying my addiction.

I'd like to think that a lot of us felt a new sense of freedom when we quit smoking. When I was smoking I just ignored all the warnings because it was all really really bad. So I just didn't wanna hear it. But now I'm more apt to listen. Because I have choices. And I have more power to make choices. I'm not gonna vape every new thing that comes out right away because "it's gotta be better than smoking".

I know that months ago I saw people on YouTube vaping nickel 200 without temp control. I think Peg was one of them. Nobody cared. Im sure people saw that and did the same without being skeptical. Now it's widely known in the community the dangers of vaping nickel.

I wasn't intending to post information as proof. There isn't much "proof" in the vaping world right now. Just having a discussion to get people thinking, talking, and reading so we can all make more informed decisions than less informed ones.


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Froth

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We know heat can POSSIBLY degrade or destroy properties of a metal. I PERSONALLY AT THIS POINT would rather not risk it. I do think we should be more skeptical than readily accepting when it comes to vaping since it's what? 6-7 years old, if even that?
While vaping may not be even a decade old yet the metal forming/forging industry has been around for more than a century, so we DO know the properties of alloys of metal and the associated risks of using them in virtually any sort of atmosphere or extreme conditions, because over time we have tested them and there are numerous reports on the subjects available on the internet dating back to the 70's and earlier. Such references I have posted from, there are hundreds of them.
I wasn't intending to post information as proof. There isn't much "proof" in the vaping world right now. Just having a discussion to get people thinking, talking, and reading so we can all make more informed decisions than less informed ones.
So, this post was what...?
A major danger from using SS in vaping is the possible formation of Hexavalent Chromium, which is highly carcinogenic.
If you want the thread to have good information in it, please don't post information you're not checking for even yourself. The only reason I initially responded to you at all is because of that first mention of Hexavalent Chromium and the blindly wrong statement you made about it, due to the level of concern you appeared to show I felt it would be necessary to disclose the conditions in which it is produced and assure you that those simply don't happen during vaping, a little bit of internet research can tell you that we don't come close to the temperatures required to produce it.

You stated things you didn't even bother to figure out and called it a "major danger", which personally I have a problem with since I consider SS to be the safest choice for vaping wire, I don't want someone who knows nothing about SS to come in this thread and see your post and consider it a fact when it's simply not. So many people are edgy about vaping already, we owe it to ourselves and the vaping community to actually fact check things we hear and not assume popular opinion is correct.
 
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edyle

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I don't think that's a good thing... I suggest you ditch that and start over. A major danger from using SS in vaping is the possible formation of Hexavalent Chromium, which is highly carcinogenic.

Both kanthal and nichrome are alloys that contain chromium.

SS - stainless steel, is not made with chromium.

(of course if it's from china, you never know what they put into their 'stainless steel' so that it looks 'shiny' and 'stainless').
 

Froth

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About to order some wire to try out and Im still confused on which one to get, 316 or 317? It will be 26 ga.
If I were limited to just those two choices, I would go with 316. Honestly you will notice almost no difference between them, the chemical composition is very very close.
Both kanthal and nichrome are alloys that contain chromium.

SS - stainless steel, is not made with chromium.

(of course if it's from china, you never know what they put into their 'stainless steel' so that it looks 'shiny' and 'stainless').
I am not aware of an alloy of Stainless Steel which does not contain Chromium, many alloys of SS average about 18% Chromium which is very similar to Kanthal. Without the Chromium you have mild steel as Chromium is primarily the element which gives SS the "no stain" or "anti-corrosion" properties.

304 stainless chemical composition - http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=965
 

edyle

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I am not aware of an alloy of Stainless Steel which does not contain Chromium, many alloys of SS average about 18% Chromium which is very similar to Kanthal. Without the Chromium you have mild steel as Chromium is primarily the element which gives SS the "no stain" or "anti-corrosion" properties.

304 stainless chemical composition - http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=965


holy bejesus!!!
Fe, <0.08% C, 17.5-20% Cr, 8-11% Ni, <2% Mn, <1% Si, <0.045% P, <0.03% S
and I always thought the extras in steels were more like 1% or at the most 10% !
That's definitely enough chromium in there to raise my eyebrows; thanks.
 
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Froth

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Other than these two then what is the best? Its confusing to me.
There really is no "best" in performance comparing 316, 317 or 304, the main difference is that 316 and 317 contain Molybdenum for improved weld ability because after all 316 and 317 started off as welding wire in most cases. Pick one you like that you trust the supplier of, 304 can be harder to find because it's less common as a welding wire. One source for 304 SS wire is - https://electrontubestore.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=57_1_275 However the selection of sizes is limited.
 

chia

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Hi Froth..
I'm new to SS as well, so from what I read I should just treat SS like I would kanthal? As in light pulsing to remove shorting and then proceed to wick and use? How about the applied W to SS? Same as kanthal?

Thanx ;)

I also read the very same SS coil can be used for TC as well.. Now how would that work? Currently my mod do not support SS or even Ti wire, and for the Ti wire I just set to 100F lower.. How about the setting for SS? Sources are scares here and I may have problems getting getting a mod that supports SS.. Firmware updating is also out, as my PC is having some software issues and can't seems to recognize to compressed files.. ;(
 

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Hi Froth..
I'm new to SS as well, so from what I read I should just treat SS like I would kanthal? As in light pulsing to remove shorting and then proceed to wick and use? How about the applied W to SS? Same as kanthal?

Thanx ;)

I also read the very same SS coil can be used for TC as well.. Now how would that work? Currently my mod do not support SS or even Ti wire, and for the Ti wire I just set to 100F lower.. How about the setting for SS? Sources are scares here and I may have problems getting getting a mod that supports SS.. Firmware updating is also out, as my PC is having some software issues and can't seems to recognize to compressed files.. ;(
What TV mod do you have? Some mods have SS modes now. The newest evic vtc mini software upgrade has a SS mode. The koopor plus has an SS mode with adjustable TCR which is really REALLY helpful. The problem with SS in TC now is the many grades of SS out there. I have a DNA200 and I use SS in a dripper but I have about 4 profiles with different TCRs that I rotate through depending on how well they are working that day. People are getting closer and closer making the temp curves for SS though. I think it's just a matter of time till we get a perfect one. I have no experience using a non-dna mod with SS mode yet but with my VT200 I get pretty good performance with a few profiles I have set.


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chia

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What TV mod do you have? Some mods have SS modes now. The newest evic vtc mini software upgrade has a SS mode. The koopor plus has an SS mode with adjustable TCR which is really REALLY helpful. The problem with SS in TC now is the many grades of SS out there. I have a DNA200 and I use SS in a dripper but I have about 4 profiles with different TCRs that I rotate through depending on how well they are working that day. People are getting closer and closer making the temp curves for SS though. I think it's just a matter of time till we get a perfect one. I have no experience using a non-dna mod with SS mode yet but with my VT200 I get pretty good performance with a few profiles I have set.


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I hv mostly DNA40s now.. tried doing an update on the SX, but PC wouldn't open the zip files.. :( so as mentioned I 'improvise' on the settings like 280F-330F on the DNA40s and SX350J for my Ti wires.. wondering if I can do the same for SS wires for TC..
I hv some 316L/317L SS on order.. following some very good reviews I read here. can't wait.. :)
 

jj6404

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I hv mostly DNA40s now.. tried doing an update on the SX, but PC wouldn't open the zip files.. :( so as mentioned I 'improvise' on the settings like 280F-330F on the DNA40s and SX350J for my Ti wires.. wondering if I can do the same for SS wires for TC..
I hv some 316L/317L SS on order.. following some very good reviews I read here. can't wait.. :)
I tried using SS in titanium mode (which is much closer to SS TCR than nickel) on my Koopor Mini and it kinda sorta worked half the time. Even with the DNA200 and multiple TCRs it's still the most unstable temp control as of yet. I wish you luck but idk how your nickel mode is gonna work for you. According to Evolv where nickel has a 100% resistivity, SS is somewhere like 15%.


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chia

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I tried using SS in titanium mode (which is much closer to SS TCR than nickel) on my Koopor Mini and it kinda sorta worked half the time. Even with the DNA200 and multiple TCRs it's still the most unstable temp control as of yet. I wish you luck but idk how your nickel mode is gonna work for you. According to Evolv where nickel has a 100% resistivity, SS is somewhere like 15%.


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So I guess for SS to work in TC mode I would still need a proper firmware..
Nvm the TC then.. It's great in kanthal mode anyways right ;)

Thanx mate
 

SheerLuckHolmes

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I have ordered SS 316L, just waiting delivery. What interests me the most is that SS can be used in straight wattage mode and in TC. Sometimes I forget which wire I have in a particular atomizer. Am I correct to believe that if I forget if a atomizer has Kanthal or SS wire coils I will be safe just using it in a mod without TC?
 
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