Acetyl Propionyl

Status
Not open for further replies.

someone3x7

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Aug 17, 2012
104
18
Spanaway, WA
    Everywhere I talk about it I seem to take a little heat about my opinions on Acetyl Propionyl, a.k.a. 2,3-pentanedione. A fairly common ingredient in bakery, buttery, creamy, and custard-like flavorings.

    So here a is a little light reading...
    Respiratory and olfactory cytotoxicity of inhale... [Am J Pathol. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

    So maybe whats in some flavorings is trace compared to these concentrations. I've read some other articles that were even scarier. Unfortunately, I haven't yet been able to find them again after a hard drive crash (during the backup :/).

    I personally would rather not risk it and am on a half-hearted crusade to further raise awareness of the potential.

    Flame away...
     
    Last edited:

    Vappa

    Super Member
    ECF Veteran
    Aug 30, 2012
    443
    201
    Netherlands
      In general it is well known that diacetyl is not very healthy to inhale. That is the reason that a lot of juice vendors are trying to remove it from their juices (if possible) and that the better vendors putting a warning in the descriptions of their juices that contain diacetyl.

      Unfortunately, a lot of flavors that i like and would like to try to vape do contain diacetyl, mostly the buttery and bakery (did i write this correctly?) and a peanut butter that i know. Others seem to have less problems with this and vape away. To each his own/hers, i guess.
       

      LucentShadow

      Super Member
      ECF Veteran
      Dec 28, 2011
      936
      2,371
      Michigan, USA
        Yeah, seems to me like the ECF does not want to take a stance on these things, since diketones are probably in a lot of juices and flavorings, but there's currently no real way to get the manufacturers to absolutely assure us that they don't use them.

        Diacetyl has been making waves, but there are probably still many who aren't aware of it...
         

        BakuPeg

        Super Member
        ECF Veteran
        Verified Member
        Apr 10, 2012
        742
        931
        Gainesville, Ga
          I'm not going to throw flames your way. However, I just want to note that 99% of those who use Electronic Cigarettes/PVs/MODS and who DIY and buy vendor juice are doing it for one main reason. To QUIT and to STAY OFF of analog, burning cigarettes and burning tobacco in general.

          To this end we are using our PV's as a "healthier" alternative. It is not considered 100% safe. It IS "SAFER" than analog cigarettes. To that end I do limit those notes but I do have some juice with the notes in them. I may not buy them again once I run out but I am not going to panic. Anything I mix now I bet is a LOT better for my husband than him going on analogs. and if it contains a 1% note of popcorn or Vanilla Custard I am not going to panic. I know its better than the burning tobacco and thats the goal.

          (BTW, Breathing slowly kills us but I'm not about to stop now.)
           
          Last edited:

          BakuPeg

          Super Member
          ECF Veteran
          Verified Member
          Apr 10, 2012
          742
          931
          Gainesville, Ga
            I read through the post above. Now a vendor who is "diacetyl" free may still contain Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin.
            Both chemicals give custard notes. In the manufacture of these chemicals there may also be small amounts of diacetyl.

            TPA has some interesting things to say bout the subject at this link on their site: The Flavorist Workshop

            Many of the juice vendors above have buttery/custard ish vapes. Being diacetyl free doesn't mean they are Acetyl Propionyl free.
             
            Last edited:

            someone3x7

            Senior Member
            ECF Veteran
            Aug 17, 2012
            104
            18
            Spanaway, WA
              To this end we are using our PV's as a "healthier" alternative. It is not considered 100% safe. It IS "SAFER" than analog cigarettes...
              I understand this fully. When I first started smoking I was fully aware it would probably kill me in 20-30 years time and didn't really care then. When we're talking about a couple of these diketones we are potentially looking at a much shorter time-frame of 3-7 years. I've gained a lot more respect for this life over the years.

              Yeah, seems to me like the ECF does not want to take a stance on these things, since diketones are probably in a lot of juices and flavorings, but there's currently no real way to get the manufacturers to absolutely assure us that they don't use them.

              Diacetyl has been making waves, but there are probably still many who aren't aware of it...

              Several manufacturer's have been upfront with me. I have a post on a different community site I should copy over here about that... Actually, one sec here...

              I've commented a lot about this and thought to post it all in one place. Concerning flavoring manufacturers and diketones. The diketones of primary concern are the infamous Diacetyl plus the lesser known Acetyl Propionyl (a.k.a. 2,3-Pentanedione) and Acetoin. These three are all known to cause lung disease with prolonged exposure. The later is only known to be dangerous when heated. The later two are considered safe alternatives for food purposes. Some believe that all diketones can be hazardous to the lungs, but, the studies are lacking. The natural problem I ran into when I first started DIY is that some manufacturers only list they are Diacetyl-free. The 3 diketones I've listed are primarily used for flavors that include custards, creams, cakes, cookies, and butters. The following is a summary of information I have collected from flavoring manufacturers concerning these.

              Capella Flavor Drops: Website states Diacetyl-free. For over 6 months I have emailed several queries requesting if their products use Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin, yet, they have not responded in any manner. Customer service non-existent.

              Flavor West: Website states Diacetyl-free. Just recently received email response(within 3 hours) advising they do not use any diketones in their flavorings.

              Flavour Art: Website advises which flavors contain diketones. Have not emailed since their website was very informative.

              LorAnn Oils: Website states Diacetyl-free. Email response stated they do use Acetyl Propionyl and Acetoin in some products, yet, did not state which. Further, in a recent visit to their website I noticed they have pulled most of their flavorings I might have expected to contain a diketone. Might have to follow-up on this...

              The Perfumer's Apprentice (a.k.a The Flavor Apprentice): Website advises of all 3 as “custard notes.” Great email communication on other unrelated concerns.

              Most (but not all) vaper-specific websites that sell DIY flavorings are obtaining from one of these manufacturers. They can offer discounted pricing on the smaller bottles by buying in larger volumes and re-bottling it. Since I cannot easily determine if Capella Flavor Drops or LorAnn Oils flavorings contain diketones I personally make sure not to purchase flavorings made or re-bottled from these.
               

              Vappa

              Super Member
              ECF Veteran
              Aug 30, 2012
              443
              201
              Netherlands
                I read through the post above. Now a vendor who is "diacetyl" free may still contain Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin.
                Both chemicals give custard notes. In the manufacture of these chemicals there may also be small amounts of diacetyl.

                TPA has some interesting things to say bout the subject at this link on their site: The Flavorist Workshop

                Many of the juice vendors above have buttery/custard ish vapes. Being diacetyl free doesn't mean they are Acetyl Propionyl free.

                Even when there's no diacetyl, acetyl propionyl or acetoin in them, still you cannot claim there are safe to use for vaping. Simply because there are hardly any scientific studies to prove or disprove that. You can only know for sure when somebody starts clinical tests on every substance that is used in any juice for flavoring.

                So if you want to be sure, just quit vaping or start testing. Otherwise enjoy vaping, like me. :)
                 

                someone3x7

                Senior Member
                ECF Veteran
                Aug 17, 2012
                104
                18
                Spanaway, WA
                  Even when there's no diacetyl, acetyl propionyl or acetoin in them, still you cannot claim there are safe to use for vaping. Simply because there are hardly any scientific studies to prove or disprove that. You can only know for sure when somebody starts clinical tests on every substance that is used in any juice for flavoring.

                  So if you want to be sure, just quit vaping or start testing. Otherwise enjoy vaping, like me. :)

                  I do enjoy vaping. This thread was started with a link to a recent study. I have found almost every flavor some manufacturers use diketones in diketone-free at other manufacturers. Which allows me to enjoy vaping all the more.
                   
                  Last edited:

                  rolygate

                  Vaping Master
                  Supporting Member
                  ECF Veteran
                  Verified Member
                  Sep 24, 2009
                  8,354
                  12,387
                  ECF Towers
                    Yeah, seems to me like the ECF does not want to take a stance on these things, since diketones are probably in a lot of juices and flavorings, but there's currently no real way to get the manufacturers to absolutely assure us that they don't use them. ......

                    What ECF does is provide the resources. We can't make 'rules'. There are many things that e-liquid suppliers need to be doing a lot better and it's hard to work out which should receive a priority. All ECF can do is try to help.


                    --------------------------------------
                    On a personal level this is what I think they need to be doing:

                    1. Make absolutely sure that no plasticizers can leach into refill liquids

                    In practice the only way to do this is to supply liquids only in glass bottles. Even the toughest plastics are degraded by some aggressive flavorings. Just using food-grade plastic is probably not enough: are vendors absolutely, positively sure that no liquid mix whatsoever can affect a plastic bottle even after 1 year? The answer is no - unless glass is used.


                    2. Regularly test the finished retail product, in both new bottles and those stored for months, for known contaminants

                    Common contaminants such as DEG and pthalates need to be tested for.
                    They should ask for certificates of analysis for each incoming batch of bulk ingredients.
                    They should test each finished retail batch for nicotine strength.

                    You can guarantee that most don't.


                    3. Exhaustively test a finished retail product occasionally, and publish the result on their site as proof

                    Nobody does this. Not one single e-liquid vendor does this most obvious and most basic test and/or proves they have done it. When did you last see a current test of a retail bottle of e-liquid? The answer is actually never, because no vendor has ever had a 99.5% analysis of their retail product carried out and then published the result. This is an expensive test and no one is denying that - but if a vendor is turning over $10m a year, or $1m a year, or $0.5m a year - or even $100k a year - shouldn't they do tests to find out what is in their products?


                    4. Prove they know exactly what is in their retail finished products

                    No vendor has ever done this (as far as I know). They have no idea exactly, precisely, and totally, what is in the products they sell you.

                    Prove me wrong.

                    This is why regulation is inevitable and cannot be described as an unfortunate and unforeseeable result - it's virtually guaranteed by the extreme incompetence and utter recklessness of the e-liquid trade. They have proven beyond doubt that they are only interested in making a buck and have no interest in your health or the future of the industry.


                    --------------------------
                    That's my personal point of view and not ECF's. But considering the situation as a whole, how do you think that ECF could improve things? Keeping in mind that if only 'responsible' e-liquid vendors were to be permitted on ECF, in practice that would mean removing all of them?
                     

                    Vappa

                    Super Member
                    ECF Veteran
                    Aug 30, 2012
                    443
                    201
                    Netherlands
                      A thoughtful, helpful contribution.
                      :)

                      Diacetyl is only ONE of the ingredients possibly in an e-liquid and of that one we know it's bad. But we don't know whether any of the other ingredients in it are harmful or not, as rolygate perfectly explains in his post. And until vendors start testing and proving that their juices are free of bad stuff we can either continue vaping it or make a problem out of it.

                      I don't want to make a problem out of it, i choose to vape. I do have a problem with the list that you are referring to in your post. The list contains vendors who say they only sell diacetyl-free juice. There are other vendors who also sell diacetyl-free juice, but not just all of their juices are diacetyl-free. They don't appear on that list because of the criteria that are defined for a company getting on the list.
                      Why not compile a little more detailed list with a combination of "company - diacetyl free juice"? That way, at least you know what juice is safe to buy from these vendors, not ruling out good vendors that also have juices that do contain diacetyl.
                       

                      LucentShadow

                      Super Member
                      ECF Veteran
                      Dec 28, 2011
                      936
                      2,371
                      Michigan, USA
                        What ECF does is provide the resources. We can't make 'rules'. There are many things that e-liquid suppliers need to be doing a lot better and it's hard to work out which should receive a priority. All ECF can do is try to help.


                        --------------------------------------
                        On a personal level this is what I think they need to be doing:

                        1. Make absolutely sure that no plasticizers can leach into refill liquids

                        In practice the only way to do this is to supply liquids only in glass bottles. Even the toughest plastics are degraded by some aggressive flavorings. Just using food-grade plastic is probably not enough: are vendors absolutely, positively sure that no liquid mix whatsoever can affect a plastic bottle even after 1 year? The answer is no - unless glass is used.


                        2. Regularly test the finished retail product, in both new bottles and those stored for months, for known contaminants

                        Common contaminants such as DEG and pthalates need to be tested for.
                        They should ask for certificates of analysis for each incoming batch of bulk ingredients.
                        They should test each finished retail batch for nicotine strength.

                        You can guarantee that most don't.


                        3. Exhaustively test a finished retail product occasionally, and publish the result on their site as proof

                        Nobody does this. Not one single e-liquid vendor does this most obvious and most basic test and/or proves they have done it. When did you last see a current test of a retail bottle of e-liquid? The answer is actually never, because no vendor has ever had a 99.5% analysis of their retail product carried out and then published the result. This is an expensive test and no one is denying that - but if a vendor is turning over $10m a year, or $1m a year, or $0.5m a year - or even $100k a year - shouldn't they do tests to find out what is in their products?


                        4. Prove they know exactly what is in their retail finished products

                        No vendor has ever done this (as far as I know). They have no idea exactly, precisely, and totally, what is in the products they sell you.

                        Prove me wrong.

                        This is why regulation is inevitable and cannot be described as an unfortunate and unforeseeable result - it's virtually guaranteed by the extreme incompetence and utter recklessness of the e-liquid trade. They have proven beyond doubt that they are only interested in making a buck and have no interest in your health or the future of the industry.


                        --------------------------
                        That's my personal point of view and not ECF's. But considering the situation as a whole, how do you think that ECF could improve things? Keeping in mind that if only 'responsible' e-liquid vendors were to be permitted on ECF, in practice that would mean removing all of them?

                        I agree with your views above, and it worries me that the future of vaping may be marred with some terrible maladies befalling those who are too trusting of businesses (and of those who supposedly govern their practices.)

                        I currently am resigned to being inundated by plasticizers in nearly all things that I consume. I try to stick with the safer-seeming ones when possible. Our society has become economically dependent upon them, and there is no easy solution there.

                        When it comes to diacetyl, acetyl propionyl, and possibly acetoin, I see no good reason for these to be tolerated in e-liquids. Yes, they can make a nice flavor, but there is plenty of evidence that inhalation of the first two can cause terrible damage to the lungs, and no flavor can be worth that.

                        From: Bronchiolitis obliterans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        "Bronchiolitis obliterans has many possible causes, including: collagen vascular disease, transplant rejection in organ transplant patients, viral infection (respiratory syncytial virus, adenovirus, HIV, cytomegalovirus), Stevens-Johnson Syndrome, Pneumocystis pneumonia, drug reaction, aspiration and complications of prematurity (bronchopulmonary dysplasia), and exposure to toxic fumes, including: diacetyl, sulfur dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, ammonia, chlorine, thionyl chloride, methyl isocyanate, hydrogen fluoride, hydrogen bromide, hydrogen chloride, hydrogen sulfide, phosgene, polyamide-amine dyes, mustard gas and ozone."


                        Diacetyl has some pretty nasty company, there. Some companies are discontinuing use of it. Some started using acetyl propionyl, instead. There is certainly some concern over that, as well:

                        From: CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic

                        "The alpha-diketone, 2,3-pentanedione, has received attention as a flavoring substitute for diacetyl. It is also known as acetyl propionyl or by CAS number 600-14-6. It is structurally very similar to diacetyl since 2,3-pentanedione is a 5-carbon alpha-diketone and diacetyl is a 4-carbon alpha-diketone. Published reports on the toxicity of 2,3-pentanedione were first published in abstract form in 2010 (Hubbset al. 2010b; Morgan et al. 2010). A recent NIOSH peer-reviewed publication documents that acute inhalation exposures to 2,3-pentanedione cause airway epithelial damage that is similar to diacetyl in laboratory studies (Hubbset al. 2012). In 2-week inhalation studies in rats, NIEHS researchers found that 2,3-pentanedione caused proliferation of fibrous connective tissue in the walls of airways and projections of fibrous connective tissue sometimes extended into the air passageways (Morganet al. 2012b). Preliminary data suggest that repeated exposures to either 2,3-pentanedione or diacetyl can cause airway fibrosis in rats (Morganet al. 2012a). In the acute inhalation study of 2,3-pentanedione, changes in gene expression were noted in the brain (Hubbset al. 2012). Preliminary data suggests that diacetyl can cause changes in the central nervous system that are similar to those caused by 2,3-pentanedione (Hubbset al. 2010a). As a group, these publications raise concerns that the toxicologic effects of diacetyl may be shared with alpha-diketones which are close structural analogs. Additional alpha-diketones of interest include, but are not limited to, those used in food manufacturing such as 2,3-hexanedione and 2,3-heptanedione (Dayet al. 2011)."


                        Acetoin also seems to be a viable choice for a similar flavor, though I have not found much published material on it. It doesn't seem to be quite on par with the other two that I've listed, and may be safer. Perfumer's Apprentice has commented on it, here:

                        The Flavorist Workshop

                        To be clear about what I meant about 'taking a stance': To me, the ECF is a (social) encyclopedia. I'm not very social, and look to it for information, mostly. I don't expect the ECF to try to directly regulate the businesses that use questionable substances, but I would like to see awareness raised about 'known concerns that many businesses would probably prefer to be unknown', so that the consumer may make a better-informed decision on what they will buy.

                        I can understand the seemingly many reasons why many here don't seem to like to talk about this issue, but I think it's fairly evident that this stuff is a really bad idea, and it seems that many don't know about it at all.
                         
                        Status
                        Not open for further replies.

                        Users who are viewing this thread

                          ')