- still adding up to bazillions more flavor combinations that any of us EVER smoked.
...not following...
Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP
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...not following...
'Assumed you meant: if you cut acetoin, there won't be many flavors left to vape
we meant: without acetoin there a bazillions of flavor combinations to be made from FA (diketone free) and TFA (diketone free) - which is more than the 1-2 flavors we smoked.
'Sorry for lack of clarity!
There's a difference between asking for transparency & factual data and asking them to completely revamp their flavors. One you're likely to eventually get (according to Sarah), the other, depending on the size of the manufacturer, most likely isn't going to happen. I think that's something to keep in mind.
FlavourArt and Flavor Apprentice are two prime examples. While FlavourArt does have an individual line that caters to the vaping community, they're not rushing to remove diketones from their other flavors just to better categorize them and provide a wider selection for us to choose from; neither is Flavor Apprentice. Instead, they both mark which flavors do and do not contain diketones that are known to them. FlavourArt does better categories them and they are leading the way, by example. FlavorWest should do the same, but I don't think you're going to see them completely revamp their flavor line and remove all instances of diketones.
Even Tom from Capella's said that their original flavors would remain untouched when their new flavors hit the market, most of which do contain Acetyl Proprionyl and based on taste, Acetoin. That doesn't mean all of their flavors will be recreated, though some will. Given the size of FlavorWest .vs. Capella's, revamping and testing over 200 flavors would take time. Could they do it, I'm certain they could. Will they do it is the question. I feel it's unlikely.
They should give a solid yes or no as to what's in each flavor, no doubt. It shouldn't be a mystery. Hopefully they will and hopefully it'll be detailed, though hope is what we're riding on right now.
FlavourArt and Flavor Apprentice are two prime examples. While FlavourArt does have an individual line that caters to the vaping community, they're not rushing to remove diketones from their other flavors just to better categorize them and provide a wider selection for us to choose from; neither is Flavor Apprentice. Instead, they both mark which flavors do and do not contain diketones that are known to them. FlavourArt does better categories them and they are leading the way, by example. FlavorWest should do the same, but I don't think you're going to see them completely revamp their flavor line and remove all instances of diketones.
Even Tom from Capella's said that their original flavors would remain untouched when their new flavors hit the market, most of which do contain Acetyl Proprionyl and based on taste, Acetoin. That doesn't mean all of their flavors will be recreated, though some will. Given the size of FlavorWest .vs. Capella's, revamping and testing over 200 flavors would take time. Could they do it, I'm certain they could. Will they do it is the question. I feel it's unlikely.
They should give a solid yes or no as to what's in each flavor, no doubt. It shouldn't be a mystery. Hopefully they will and hopefully it'll be detailed, though hope is what we're riding on right now.
OIC
this is true, of course.
But I see a lot of "That was my favorite flavor and now I find out it's got APro/D/Ace in it!! (grrr)"...
...as if people may be missing the point that it is not that "they put diketones in my favorite flavor" but instead "diketones are my favorite flavor"
all creams, most caramels, all custards, marshmallows, many vanillas, coconuts... all have one or more.
(Although TFA now has a caramel without any... I wonder if it's good. Does say right on the page "not very strong")
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...correct me if I'm wrong, but FW is designed and marketed for vaping...
I actually just made some more of my Almond juice, which uses about 1% TFA Marshmallow, which contains acetoin. I wish I knew the precise levels, but kinda feel that that small amount should be OK. Who knows, I suppose.
No correction needed
. I'm not arguing the fact, just stating that it's unlikely to see them do a complete 360. They claimed diacetyl-free, redacted it, are now verifying it and plan to post COA's on each of the flavors. To me, that doesn't sound like change is coming, it simply sounds as if they are going to provide the information we're asking for, as a community, and call it a day.As mentioned previously, I'm sure they *could* revamp all of the flavors, but it's unlikely to happen. While they market to vapers, flavoring is still food-oriented and if someone were to press it in court, that's the excuse you're going to hear.
would that excuse really work when they knowingly sell BULK to large(ish) juice manufacturers, under false pretenses?No correction needed
As mentioned previously, I'm sure they *could* revamp all of the flavors, but it's unlikely to happen. While they market to vapers, flavoring is still food-oriented and if someone were to press it in court, that's the excuse you're going to hear.
I suppose once there are warnings posted it would (eliminating the false pretenses aspect)
From a legal standpoint, unless there's a contract in place, and given the "at your own risk" nature of the industry in which they sell to, it most likely would hold up in court. They could easily state that vaping is an "at your own risk" habit/hobby/etc and that their flavoring is designed for food use.
A contract that states that that these chemicals are not present, however, would be a whole different ballgame. Given they do not seem to test their own flavors and they are relying on what appears to be true or limited information from their suppliers, they most likely don't have contracts in place with those details. Perhaps NDA's to prevent them from telling who their client base is, but that's probably the limit.
Best case scenario, if someone were to file suit, they'd settle out of court to prevent negative exposure. So a suit may not even see the light of day if they took that route and it'd take someone with time, money and the legal expertise to combat it. Not saying it's impossible, but larger companies always have retainers. They call, they get taken care of. It's always been that way. When just your average hard-working joe calls, such as you or I, a lawyer will give you the run around in most cases or they will push for an out of court settlement which means no discussion of the topic. Meaning you post about it, talk about it etc....your settlement is null and void.
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I want to go back to who was saying Acetyl Proprionyl, and Acetoine are equally harmful.. to what extent exactly? Diacetyl sounds outright scary with popcorn lung.. but what can be caused by these other two?
I haven't studied Acetyl Pro very much (as none of my flavorings have it), but Acetoin is the exact same molecule as Diacetyl, but with an extra hydrogen (diacetyl has an O group and acetoin has an OH). Meaning that if it oxidizes (loses that H) it becomes diacetyl, which will happen in manufacture to an extent. As to whether the acetoin molecule itself is harmful, I'm not sure. Depends on by what chemical process diacetyl compromises the lungs, whether it is purely a function of the O- group or not.
Out of my league and beyond my current info.
Likely not equally harmful, but likely also harmful, and of course any acetoin flavoring will have a certain amount of diacetyl in it
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When it comes to vaping, it's relatively unknown. There's no hard data on how much of each chemical is absorbed when we vape an e-liquid with X amount of Y chemical or how the amount of each or a single chemical in the vapor will affect us. The data that we do have is from lab studies on lab rats and the rare cases of BO which falls back to the popcorn industry. That does not mean that the data holds no merit, it does, though the recommended exposures are based off of these studies from what I can tell.
That being said, the documented effects of each chemical, from available studies I've read, are generally in concentrated form. Meaning they are testing diacetyl, acetoin and acetyl proprionyl in their pure form; not in an e-liquid, not in a solvated blend. We may see this in the future, especially if AEMSA and other parties begin to play a larger role in the production and manufacturing of e-liquids, though it's not to that point just yet.
As far as the chemicals go, Acetyl Proprionyl (2,3-Pentanedione) caused proliferation of fibrous connective tissue in the walls of airways and projections of fibrous connective tissue sometimes extended into the air passageways and that repeated exposures to either Acetyl Proprionyl (2,3-pentanedione) or diacetyl can cause airway fibrosis in rats (source - CDC). Essentially, they can cause airway damage.
As an alternative comparison, drinking alcohol can cause liver damage, especially if consumption is excessive. It may damage the liver of one person in only a few years time, while another may not see the effects for 20-40 years of hardcore consumption; some may never see it at all. Everyone is different and the effects are going to be drastically different for everyone. This is not meant to downplay the seriousness of a potential issue, but provide a comparison of what happens over time.
There's a lot of unknowns with vaping and with each passing year we're learning more and more, albeit, on our own. With the help of Dr. Farsalinos, hopefully we'll learn more and more and yet, even more as he's been a big contributor to the industry as a whole and hopefully will continue to be for some time.
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This is from 2010 so prolly everyone but me has already read it...but maybe not and even so, can't hurt to have the link in this thread https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib10142010.html
I found it interesting to know a little background on the concerns regarding these chemicals in some flavorings. Kinda long, but full of info for the person weighing pros and cons. Please accept my apologies if this link was already posted or discussed; I didn't have time tonight to read completely this very long thread.
Cheers, all...
I found it interesting to know a little background on the concerns regarding these chemicals in some flavorings. Kinda long, but full of info for the person weighing pros and cons. Please accept my apologies if this link was already posted or discussed; I didn't have time tonight to read completely this very long thread.
Cheers, all...
Would it be true to say that there is a considerable risk by DIY'ers who are smelling and preparing the pure extracts with these? When I buy an eliquid Im getting 4% of it for example, and that in VG, who knows what dose is hitting my lungs, but when I buy new flavors for DIY I know I take a big wiff of it. Or does it have to be vaped to be harmful?
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From what I've read, and we2rcool can correct me on this one, it's the vapor from the chemicals that causes the issues noted in the studies. Simply smelling a flavor that contains the diluted chemical would not be a true cause for alarm as you're not inhaling the concentrated chemical in this case. The e-liquid, when in the bottle, is not under pressure or heat, short of room temperature and the heat emitting from your hand or breath.
I've been reading more into the subject as of late as it pertains not only to our scenario, but also cooks who use pan sprays and oils for sauteing and frying; these products have the same chemicals within them and they too are heated and cooled, sometimes rapidly. If you smell the spray from Pam or similar cooking sprays with artificial "butter" flavor, you'll probably get the same aroma as you would from an e-liquid or flavor concentrate, only in higher amounts as the sprays are quite concentrated to "lock in" the flavor as you cook.
The information, honestly, at times, is conflicting. I'll have to find the report, though it questions how bad the chemicals really are, IIRC, as no reports go on to show that line cooks are being diagnosed with the issues presented from inhalation of these chemicals and they are often exposed to much higher concentrations at much higher levels of heat than we are when we vape. The difference is direct inhalation versus what I would guess is second-hand inhalation since it's being inhaled from a pan instead of directly through a mouthpiece.
Having been a cook in various restaurants in a previous life
, that hits home as many cook-to-order places (not specifically big chains) do use artificial sprays and oils to replicate flavor instead of using butter.
We understand & empathize, btdt & felt that way...and have thrown away (literally) 'thousands of dollars worth' of very valuable time spent creating, testing & retesting dozens of recipes - not to mention all the frustrating frustrations.
And it all could have easily been avoided by vaping manufacturers & vendors testing, disclosing & labeling their "flavors" honestly. We would have never 'had to give up' flavors that we would NEVER had chosen to buy, painstakingly test, create recipes, mix, test & retest, vape and "learned to like". Sheesh, we were both off analogs in 3-4 days using crap flavors in cartos with cig-alike batteries from Smokeless Image.
We did what we thought was 'more than adequate research' and purchased only from 'registered suppliers'....only to realize that we'd invested in, and accustomed ourselves to flavors laden with "inhalation risk' chemicals.
We could have been VERY happy with FA & limited TFA.
Speaking of vendors that are catering only to vapers and selling diacetyl-laced flavors...we should put Vaping Zone on the list.
Their Gourmet Line VZ-SC Gourmet Flavoring is from Baker Flavors in Russia, and Baker Flavors tested back in 2010 and found diacetyl in many flavors. But VZ does NOT disclose this.
We've posted this many times:
:::shaking head in wonderment::: How can any person/company knowingly sell diacetyl-laced flavors to vapers without full disclosure?
From what I've read, and we2rcool can correct me on this one, it's the vapor from the chemicals that causes the issues noted in the studies. Simply smelling a flavor that contains the diluted chemical would not be a true cause for alarm as you're not inhaling the concentrated chemical in this case. The e-liquid, when in the bottle, is not under pressure or heat, short of room temperature and the heat emitting from your hand or breath.
I've been reading more into the subject as of late as it pertains not only to our scenario, but also cooks who use pan sprays and oils for sauteing and frying; these products have the same chemicals within them and they too are heated and cooled, sometimes rapidly. If you smell the spray from Pam or similar cooking sprays with artificial "butter" flavor, you'll probably get the same aroma as you would from an e-liquid or flavor concentrate, only in higher amounts as the sprays are quite concentrated to "lock in" the flavor as you cook.
The information, honestly, at times, is conflicting. I'll have to find the report, though it questions how bad the chemicals really are, IIRC, as no reports go on to show that line cooks are being diagnosed with the issues presented from inhalation of these chemicals and they are often exposed to much higher concentrations at much higher levels of heat than we are when we vape. The difference is direct inhalation versus what I would guess is second-hand inhalation since it's being inhaled from a pan instead of directly through a mouthpiece.
Having been a cook in various restaurants in a previous life
You rang? :::grin:::
"Vapor" is what happens when a container of chemical liquid or powder is opened and interacts with "air". Of course, it's not as strong as when heat is added, but if one puts there nose over a bottle of gasoline, clorox, or strong acid...there IS vapor.
From here: Diacetyl - Toxipedia
We're not saying that smelling a bottle of flavoring for a few seconds will cause harm, but hello? "smelling" IS inhaling!
Where did you come up with thiscomparison? Vapers are putting these chemicals in a small tank with a coil, hitting the button and creating a warm/hot, very wet, vapor-mist (that is barely diluted by ambient air) - that is mixed with vg, pg & nic..and then inhaling it directly through a tube into their mouth. That's nothing like cooking...in a home kitchen, and certainly not in a restaurant (where there are huge amounts of open space air, and most times huge exhaust fans that keep air flowing constantly).
In higher amounts? Let's be realistic please. In the home, how many times per hour/per day/per week does one spray butter-flavored Pam? onto a pan with several feet between us and our nose/lungs? In a restaurant scenario we're looking at multiple times per hour during peak-times (1-3 hours per shift). But cooking sprays are rarely used in 'line cooking' - there's typically a container of 'butter flavored stuff' that's slapped onto a grill. The sprays are used in restaurant baking - but the max would be a few times an hour. How does that possibly compare to putting a fluid in a tank, heating it, creating vapor-mist and drawing it directly into mouth/lungs? 5-20 times every 15-30 minutes for hours on end 7/31/365?
Right - it doesn't compare.
If you've got facts or studies...please DO share how you know that these line cooks (under exhaust fans) "are often exposed to much higher concentrations and much higher levels of heat than we are when we vape". You are stating this as if it were factual & proven! Even if there weren't exhaust fans, the open-air concentration of cooking sprays couldn't rival vaping (unless there were vats of diacetyl sitting on the grill). I am an ex-restaurant manager, and I've cooked in many restaurant kitchens (a couple in sub-human conditions, lol), and I've NEVER scalded or burnt my mouth from inhaling any air or vapor/fumes from a hot grill, oven, fry-basket, or stove...but we2 both scald our mouth several times weekly on 'hot vapor'.
There are a lot more differences than that.
Having been a cook in various restaurants in a previous life
'Sounds like we shared 'previous life experiences'. Fwiw, big chains use 'artificials', too.
***
This post?
Jonathan, wethinks you can do (much) better.
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No correction needed
As mentioned previously, I'm sure they *could* revamp all of the flavors, but it's unlikely to happen. While they market to vapers, flavoring is still food-oriented and if someone were to press it in court, that's the excuse you're going to hear.
Yep, that's likely the pitiful truth of it. They're killing their own market. But that's not the end of it, court or no court.
What they're doing is driving the nail home on OUR rights to vape & DIY without government control. No matter who believes in all the studies, warnings & exposure limits in the vaping community, we know the authorities DO believe them. And since we can't regulate ourselves (and they're already frothing at the mouth and chomping the bit), they'll be more than happy to take over.
You're speaking for yourself, not we2...and to our knowledge the "vaping community" hasn't yet decided exactly what "we" are asking for.
What we2 want (fwiw) is FULL TRANSPARENCY & FULL DISCLOSURE...clear descriptions on every product & every label (with adequate warnings), not some CoA's (which may NOT reveal levels less than 1%) tucked away somewhere on their website where newbies & those unaware won't even know to look for them.
What exactly has FW officially redacted? We must have missed something.
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"not some CoA's (which may NOT reveal levels less than 1%) tucked away somewhere on their website where newbies & those unaware won't even know to look for them."
That's what I'm worried about, it's useless if the flavour companies start providing info only on flavours that have 1% and above.
Jonathon did Sarah mention if the COA's that they are working on will disclose acetoin, acetyl and diacetyl at amounts lower than 1%?
That's what I'm worried about, it's useless if the flavour companies start providing info only on flavours that have 1% and above.
Jonathon did Sarah mention if the COA's that they are working on will disclose acetoin, acetyl and diacetyl at amounts lower than 1%?
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