Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[ImperfectFuture]

This is not a FDA page. This is about safety related to diketones. We have a right to discuss this.. Vendors who do not disclose these facts are the ones who will not survive in this industry. They are at fault-not the buyer (vapor-er).

But people reading this, are more likely to not vape, than vape. And those more likely to not vape, will more likely side to ban vaping. They are linked, I din't see much going on here but arguing (in specifics, wer2cool calling BS whenever someone gives a conflicting answer).

Discussion is one thing, wanting to stay on the front page, with no progress, turning folks off without proof (guilty until proven innocent?), and arguing when the end result has been reached, states y'all a lot younger than me. Perhaps a sticky above with diacetyl select posts would be more behooving of this topic, than keeping up arguing.

As a sticky, you keep the pressure in the vendors, APPROPRIATE. Posts would be there (those in the know wouldn't order from said vendors), you wouldn't need to keep arguing to stay on front page, and the fantastic research doesn't get lost in pages of this (where the light reader comes in and asks for crib notes).

Those whom insist they are right, rarely are.

 

[Sdh]

But people reading this, are more likely to not vape, than vape. And those more likely to not vape, will more likely side to ban vaping. They are linked, I din't see much going on here but arguing (in specifics, wer2cool calling BS whenever someone gives a conflicting answer).

Discussion is one thing, wanting to stay on the front page, with no progress, turning folks off without proof (guilty until proven innocent?), and arguing when the end result has been reached, states y'all a lot younger than me. Perhaps a sticky above with diacetyl select posts would be more behooving of this topic, than keeping up arguing.

As a sticky, you keep the pressure in the vendors, APPROPRIATE. Posts would be there (those in the know wouldn't order from said vendors), you wouldn't need to keep arguing to stay on front page, and the fantastic research doesn't get lost in pages of this (where the light reader comes in and asks for crib notes).

Those whom insist they are right, rarely are.

It has been proven that Flavorwest has lied about diacetyl usage. This knowledge has helped so many people with their decision on vaping Flavorwest flavorings. Its a choice. Thanks for your input.

I am deciding now if I want to write a paper on this subject.


Oh, here is the FDA page for anyone who feels it necessary to fight for vaping. This thread is about chemicals.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...rs-before-any-action-possible-under-regs.htmlThis thread was quoted from this link. See post 306.

 

[we2rcool]

But people reading this, are more likely to not vape, than vape.

Disagree...they're more likely to vape SAFELY. Or not, but that should be the vaper's choice (but an informed choice is impossible when the essential information is not honestly disclosed by vendors/manufacturers).

Certainly your other suggestions may be appropriate - but it seems to us that far more information is required before any type of official sticky would even be entertained. We can't speak for others, but we can speak for ourselves - and your assumption/accusation of our intent (to keep bumping the thread) is simply incorrect.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

That is the point of the BS Meter post - your statement was untrue and you know/knew it was untrue, but posted it anyway. Finding out if these chemicals are present is NOT "simply a matter of asking".

'Nuff said.

It's not untrue. An issue with *one* vendor does not represent an issue with the entire flavor industry. Some may have an issue with FlavorWest and that's fine, but their mistakes are not those of other vendors who *do* provide information on their flavors and make it a point to provide us with the information we need. It's our choice, from there on, to vape it or not.

Vendors, who produce e-liquids, are following suit and providing information on their flavors to give their customers a choice in the matter, as they should. Asking does work. You may not always like what you hear, and you may have to prod for more information, but asking and pushing is the only way you're going to get it. If Vendor X doesn't want to bother, perhaps they will be on the short end of the stick and it very well may harm their business in the long (or short) run, though the aim should be at those who do not and state that they will not provide such information.


That being said, despite the popularity of this thread, and other similar, I honestly don't see much being done from those concerned. Before I buy from a vendor, I contact them to get as much information as possible. FW lied, end of story. It sucks, sure, though unless you work for them, we don't know where the blame lies and we're just pointing fingers as the most obvious target.


I spoke with Mike from OneOnOne just yesterday and he is very straight-forward. He said that their manufacturers, i.e. raw ingredient suppliers, were giving them the run-around when it comes to getting exact details on what's in the flavors they buy. So in this case, and potentially in the case of FW, it could very well indeed be the top of the chain which is preventing disclosure. Neither FW or OOO is going to reveal the exact company they go through to get said ingredients. I've asked countless times. You might as well lock that up as a loss because it's along the lines of a trade secret.

 

[HeadInClouds]

I believe the FDA will require specific ingredient information from liquid vendors. They do from cigarette manufacturers, and similar disclosure (to the FDA) is among the proposed regulations. It doesn't mean WE will get any info, or that there would be specific restrictions on ingredients - but the vendors would have to determine what's in their products.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

That being said, despite the popularity of this thread, and other similar, I honestly don't see much being done from those concerned. Before I buy from a vendor, I contact them to get as much information as possible. FW lied, end of story. It sucks, sure, though unless you work for them, we don't know where the blame lies and we're just pointing fingers as the most obvious target.

But then again they should have been testing their ingredients themselves from the get-go, as they are the "point of entry" of these flavors into the greater vaping world.

But then again again I don't believe they "just didn't know", and I don't trust that this is an isolated instance.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

But then again they should have been testing their ingredients from the get-go, or at least since the diacetyl issue was raised years ago.

With the claim posted on their site, I completely agree. Had that claim not been posted, they most likely wouldn't be getting slammed the way they are today and could have came out on top of the situation by providing details on their flavors as other flavor companies are. Unfortunately, that's not how it went down and they are learning a lesson from it.

I don't know who they buy from, though if the manufacturer would simply provide the information, they wouldn't need to do testing as it would be direct and they could simply post said information for others to view. That and after hearing from Mike (OneOnOne), it makes it appear as if it's simply the top that is causing the issues. They could indeed do in-house testing, as TPA & FlavourArt does, though I guess that isn't something they thought about doing. Perhaps they will begin moving forward, it's hard to say.

 

[penstyle]

So only this one topic slash thread is somehow harming peoples right to vape. Why not all the other threads on sub ohming, cheap batteries, high nic, silica, on and on. Give me a break.

 

[RocketPuppy]

Becoming more knowledgable about juice/flavorings is not a valid reason to shun vaping.

Discussing vendors and their current practices is not a valid reason to criticize people.

ECF is a community dedicated to vaping and all things related.

If by reading this thread, a person becomes angered at a poster, please discuss it outside of this thread.

If learning the dangers read here about certain chemicals steers someone away from vaping, then that is their choice, but this is an important discussion. If it bothers people, there is no need to participate.

I am not trying to be a mod, but thus far, this has been a source of information, and I would prefer if it continued to be that and not a barrage of personal attacks.

 

[vangrl27]

"An issue with *one* vendor does not represent an issue with the entire flavor industry"

unfortunately when it's a flavour vendor it effects many other vendors. In Canada there are numerous e-juice vendors that use F.W (along with Capella, F.A, TPA etc). They've all claimed "diacetyl free", and some are now taking a step back and either testing or just looking for safer alternatives. This is an excellent thing in my opinion and threads like this helped this happen.

There was bound to be some disagreements on this thread, but that only makes for more interesting reading and helps with exploring all sides, certainly nothing to get upset over.

I really appreciate everyone's take on the topic of this thread, which is AAD not FDA

 

[vangrl27]

But people reading this, are more likely to not vape, than vape. And those more likely to not vape, will more likely side to ban vaping. They are linked, I din't see much going on here but arguing (in specifics, wer2cool calling BS whenever someone gives a conflicting answer).

Discussion is one thing, wanting to stay on the front page, with no progress, turning folks off without proof (guilty until proven innocent?), and arguing when the end result has been reached, states y'all a lot younger than me. Perhaps a sticky above with diacetyl select posts would be more behooving of this topic, than keeping up arguing.

As a sticky, you keep the pressure in the vendors, APPROPRIATE. Posts would be there (those in the know wouldn't order from said vendors), you wouldn't need to keep arguing to stay on front page, and the fantastic research doesn't get lost in pages of this (where the light reader comes in and asks for crib notes).

Those whom insist they are right, rarely are.

"But people reading this, are more likely to not vape, than vape. And those more likely to not vape, will more likely side to ban vaping."

nah.....people reading this thread 'may' be more likely to choose to go DIY with flavour companies that are honest about exactly what's in their flavours rather than buy from e-juice vendors, which will hopefully push e-juice vendors to demand that their flavour suppliers test their product for inhalation risk ingredients before supplying to the vaping community. No one's asking them to eliminate AAD, just asking that it's listed as an ingredient so we can decide if we want to purchase it. It's really very simple, and really a bit crazy that it wasn't done years ago.

 

[Zurd]

Anyone made up a list of company with what is safe or not?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Anyone made up a list of company with what is safe or not?

All flavor vendors have flavoring with and without these chemicals, so it'd be hard to label the company, as a whole, safe or their flavorings safe to vape since it's still relatively unknown. FlavourArt is the only company specifically to have a line of flavorings that they deem safer for vaping and those flavorings are categorized separately from those that do contain diketones (Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl).

As far as companies that do not provide specific details, as of this post:

- Capella's
- FlavorWest
- Hangsen

Capella's, last I spoke to Tom, is working on this information, though it's not available right now. Vanilla Custard, French Vanilla, Caramel and New York Cheesecake are known to at the very least contain Acetoin, though may contain both Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl (Tom did state that AP was used and that they are working on an AP-Free version of Vanilla Custard and French Vanilla). I'm actually waiting to hear back from him on this very subject. Hangsen is one I'm trying to get more information from. There seems to be a slight issue with communication. The first e-mail response I received was that some flavors did contain both Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl while a follow up after speaking with their lead chemist noted that none of their flavors contain either of the three discussed in this thread.

- FlavorArt offers flavors w/ & w/o
- Flavor Apprentice offers flavors w/ & w/o
- OneOnOne is in the process of working with a new manufacturer - no additional info. right now.
- Inawera is one company that never answered my follow-up e-mail
- Silver Cloud Estates posts an MSDS w/ Chemical information. They have flavors w/ & w/o


I know this isn't an all-inclusive list, but these are the vendors that I've spoken with thus far. Fairies Finest doesn't seem to answer e-mails at all based on trying to get in touch with them no less than 6 times. They're either busy, don't want to speak to anyone who mentions vaping, or would simply prefer not to disclose and feel that ignoring e-mails is the best solution.

 

[Zurd]

Thank you for doing this, it is much appreciated, you're a great asset to this community!

 

[we2rcool]

Anyone made up a list of company with what is safe or not?

'No need for "a list" at this point (edit: ooopsy, didn't see JT's till I posted this). There is only one vendor/manufacturer whose flavors are tested & guaranteed to not contain diacetyl, acetoin or acetyl propionyl - and that is Flavourart (E Cigarette line only - not flavors from the Kitchen Magic line).

The only other vendor/manufacturer that publicly discloses the presence of these chemicals (including the basic percentages of each) in their flavors is TFA. They are currently in the midst of testing/retesting and updating their website data, but we can find solid information in their Spec Sheets & Components List.

During this update, it's sometimes tricky (or impossible) to do the searches - so here's a link to flavors containing acetoin: Perfumer's Apprentice acetoin
...and one for flavors containing acetyl propionyl: Perfumer's Apprentice acetyl propionyl

No other vendor publicly discloses which flavors do/do not contain them, or the percentages which may be in them. As you can see from TFA's list below, there are MANY more flavors that typically contain these chemicals than one would expect.

Although there are still a couple unknowns on our TFA list, here it is (an * indicates both acetoin & acetyl propionyl):

PRODUCTS WITH CAS # 513-86-0 : Acetoin


Almond Amaretto Flavor < 1%
Apple (Tart Granny Smith) Flavor * >= 1% and < 10%
Banana Cream Flavor >= 1% and < 10%
Bavarian Cream Flavor < .5%
Bittersweet Chocolate Flavor < 1%
Boysenberry Flavor * < .5%
Butter Flavor * >= 10%
Butterscotch Flavor * < 1%
Caramel (Original) Flavor * < .5%
Caramel Candy Flavor * < .5%
Caramel Cappuccino Flavor * >= 1% and < 10%
Cinnamon Danish Flavor * < 1%
Coconut Extra Flavor < 1%
Coconut Flavor < .5%
Coffee (Kona) Flavor < 1%
Dairy/Milk Flavor * < .5%
Dulce de Leche Flavor * < .5%
Elderberry Flavor * < .5%
English Toffee Flavor * < .5%
French Vanilla Deluxe Flavor * < 1%
Gingerbread Cookie * < .5%
Gingerbread Flavor * < .5%
Graham Cracker Clear * < .5%
Graham Cracker Flavor * < .5%
Hazelnut Flavor * < .5%
Hazelnut Praline Flavor * < .5%
Huckleberry Flavor * < .5%
Irish Cream Flavor < 1%
Jamaican Rum Flavor < .5%
Marshmallow Flavor * < .5%
Mocha Flavor * < .5%
Molasses Flavor * < .5%
Nectarine Flavor < .5%
Peach Flavor < .5%
Peanut Butter Flavor * < .5%
Pecan Flavor < .5%
Pie Crust Flavor < .5%
Pumpkin Spice Flavor
Red Velvet Cake Flavor * < .5%
Sweet Cream Flavor < 1%
Tiramisu Flavor * < .5%
Vanilla Cupcake * < .5%
Vanilla Custard Flavor * >= 1% and < 10%
Waffle (Belgian) Flavor * < .5%
White Chocolate Flavor >= 1% and < 10%

PRODUCTS WITH CAS # 600-14-6 : Acetylpropionyl

Apple (Tart Granny Smith) Flavor * < 1%
Boysenberry Flavor * < .5%
Butter Flavor * >= 1% and < 10%
Butterscotch Flavor * < .5%
Caramel (Original) Flavor * < 1%
Caramel Candy Flavor * < .5%
Caramel Cappuccino Flavor * >= 1% and < 10%
Cheesecake Flavor < .5%
Cinnamon Danish Flavor * < .5%
Cinnamon Sugar Cookie < .5%
Coconut Candy * < 1%
Dairy/Milk Flavor * < .5%
Dulce de Leche Flavor * < .5%
Elderberry Flavor * < .5%
English Toffee Flavor * < .5%
French Vanilla Deluxe Flavor * < .5%
Gingerbread Cookie * < .5%
Gingerbread Flavor * < .5%
Graham Cracker Clear * < .5%
Graham Cracker Flavor * < .5%
Hazelnut Flavor * < .5%
Hazelnut Praline Flavor * < .5%
Huckleberry Flavor * < .5%
Maple Syrup Flavor < .5%
Marshmallow Flavor * < .5%
Mocha Flavor * < .5%
Molasses Flavor * < .5%
Peanut Butter Flavor * < .5%
Pralines and Cream Flavor will be replaced with Acetoin < .5%
Red Velvet Cake Flavor * < .5%
Tiramisu Flavor * < .5%
Toasted Marshmallow Flavor < .5%
Vanilla Bean Ice Cream Flavor >= 1% and < 10%
Vanilla Cupcake * < .5%
Vanilla Custard Flavor * >= 1% and < 10%
Waffle (Belgian) Flavor * < .5%
​

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

To add to my reply above, Audrey from Hangsen did get back with me and cleared up my confusion, so for Hangsen:

Audrey provided me with an SDS report from SGS on their Vanilla e-liquid which uses their Vanilla Flavor Concentrate (I asked for this specifically as another member was questioning it in a previous reply). No Diacetyl, Acetoin or Acetyl Proprionyl is present on the report provided by SGS. I don't know a lot of about SGS as a company, nor the depth of the reporting they provide or what Hangsen requests. I'm only going by the info specifically on the report I was provided with which is dated October 2010. The recipe has not changed nor has the flavoring, from what was said.

Hangsen Vanilla E-Liquid

Specific Chemicals: Benzenemethanol, 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy (4.2%); Vanilla Extract (15%), Water (10%), Ethyl Maltol (0.5%); 2,5-dimethylpyrazine (1.8%), Glycerin (64.5%), Vanillin (4%).


As far as what these chemicals are, I had to look them up (I'm not a chemist by trade), so below are the more common names.

Benzenemethanol = Benzoyl Alcohol / Phenyl methanol / Phenyl carbinol

4-hydroxy-3-methoxy = Benzoic Acid / Vanillic Acid

2,5-dimethylpyrazine = Pyrazine


Audrey stated that they do not have SDS's on all e-liquids, therefore they do not have them on all flavors. They go about things in a slightly different way - whether you feel it's good or bad, I'm just reporting on what she said. They provide samples to clients who wish to further test their flavors, but due to the number of flavors, they do not test all of them. Clients can test them independently, or they can pay HS to aid with the testing. I didn't ask about the costs, though I am following us asking why and how they can state whether these chemicals are for certain not in others, so bare with me on this.

I'm sure something will be said; I too feel it's a little odd.

 

[JayQC]

Anyone made up a list of company with what is safe or not?

There's no point in trying to do that at the moment.


Asking vendors (of flavoring AND e-juice) is not enough :

"Hi

My honest opinion if you are worried about the chemicals is to go with a straight flavourless. I do not have the test results to put you at ease about the flavours so I can not guarantee that they are not in there. I truly believe that if I did have the results they could change from batch to batch. I really do not know the answers here.

For me, and this is only my opinion. Before when I smoked, I took about 600 different chemicals, now that I vape I take in about 4. For me I am happy with this.

Until more testing is done, we won’t know.

This is what I know."


This is coming from a canadian vendor who advertise their flavors as "Diacetyl free".

Only 4 chemicals in vaping?

Sure thing, here they are, if you don't break them down :

1. PG
2. VG
3. Nicotine
4. Flavorings (which are made up of hundreds of chemicals)

Even the vendors who sell the products have no clue, so what's the point of asking them?

It's the chemists who know for sure, the rest are merely doing PR and marketing. Mixing up flavors you got in the mail and selling the result does not make you a chemist, and does not make you trustworthy of critical information regarding what your product is made of.

As I found out by writing to this e-juice vendor, they can advertise their product however they please and throw the ball to the flavoring manufacturer when the questions get too heated.

 

[Sdh]

I recently contacted Hangsen via Facebook and email. They told me they do not use diacetly or Acetoin. The guy was unsure about AP.

 

[vangrl27]

There's no point in trying to do that at the moment.


Asking vendors (of flavoring AND e-juice) is not enough :

"Hi

My honest opinion if you are worried about the chemicals is to go with a straight flavourless. I do not have the test results to put you at ease about the flavours so I can not guarantee that they are not in there. I truly believe that if I did have the results they could change from batch to batch. I really do not know the answers here.

For me, and this is only my opinion. Before when I smoked, I took about 600 different chemicals, now that I vape I take in about 4. For me I am happy with this.

Until more testing is done, we won’t know.

This is what I know."


This is coming from a canadian vendor who advertise their flavors as "Diacetyl free".

Only 4 chemicals in vaping?

Sure thing, here they are, if you don't break them down :

1. PG
2. VG
3. Nicotine
4. Flavorings (which are made up of hundreds of chemicals)

Even the vendors who sell the products have no clue, so what's the point of asking them?

It's the chemists who know for sure, the rest are merely doing PR and marketing. Mixing up flavors you got in the mail and selling the result does not make you a chemist, and does not make you trustworthy of critical information regarding what your product is made of.

As I found out by writing to this e-juice vendor, they can advertise their product however they please and throw the ball to the flavoring manufacturer when the questions get too heated.

what company was that?

thanks

 

[JayQC]

^^ Allecigsolutions.

The person I was in contact with told me there would be testing done with FlavorArt in the future. They seem to be aware and also willing to live up to the disclaimer, which is great and I will order my flavorless from them.

But if FlavorArt is only required to contain less than Z% of X in their flavorings in order to be able to declare it "Free of X", and Z% still amounts to thousands of PPM when vaporized, it's back to square one.

They carry FW but only for DIY customers, they don't use it in their juice according to them. The DIY community wanted it so they sell it, but they don't use it.

The main problem here is that no regulation is Vape specific.