All these threads regarding safety and regulations, and my ranting

[GoodDog]

I think there are "many people" on ECF that would like to express a lot of things without the fanbois coming out of the woodwork to complain about the same tactics that they also do. If it wasn't for Fernand mentioning religion there would be something else to complain about unless the poster is part of "the group" it seems.

When a new member can't even say a negative word about a certain supplier without pages of negative comments on what "she" must have done wrong instead of the supplier something is wrong here. Why are we so divided and fighting with each other? There's so much resentment and division lately and I can't imagine how it will be in the future if it continues like this. We should be supporting each other, the consumers, not the vendors. IMO

@ Edwv30, LOL I was thinking of saying the same thing. Geez, what would happen if we all went to EVERY sub-forum and posted our ALL-KNOWING information on EVERY subject? People might start to get fed up, huh?

 

[Edwv30]

I think there are "many people" on ECF that would like to express a lot of things without the fanbois coming out of the woodwork to complain about the same tactics that they also do. If it wasn't for Fernand mentioning religion there would be something else to complain about unless the poster is part of "the group" it seems.

Absolutely. There would have been complaints not matter what was said and the thread would have been derailed.

When a new member can't even say a negative word about a certain supplier without pages of negative comments on what "she" must have done wrong instead of the supplier something is wrong here. Why are we so divided and fighting with each other? There's so much resentment and division lately and I can't imagine how it will be in the future if it continues like this. We should be supporting each other, the consumers, not the vendors. IMO

We are divided because of our addictions. You are 100% correct and we need to support each other. We also need to demand honesty from from the vendors...if we don't no one else will.

@ Edwv30, LOL I was thinking of saying the same thing. Geez, what would happen if we all went to EVERY sub-forum and posted our ALL-KNOWING information on EVERY subject? People might start to get fed up, huh?

 

[rockyroad]

"Let Me Be Clear" (some just eat that one up) and "Make No Mistake" (did that start with Clinton or Bush) Total Transparency (please). When I first started vaping 7 months ago I knew nothing about the possibly "Bad for You" flavors. It was basically people just telling me to buy this or that because "IT ROCKS". Little did I know some of these people were working for vendors to promote the product. In a short period of time, this changed at the forum I was on. People started to find out who and what other people were doing(promotion of products for fee or reimbursement). Now if you go on that forum and start pushing a product you must register with admin as an affiliate. If they do not and they are found out...now we can talk about Jesus. I absolutely believe in evolution and nothing ever stays the same. I look at this possibility of flavors being harmful to my health with a few grains of salt. I'm vaping a NOMMY NOMMY buttery, waffle, maple syrup, vanilla custard and a few other heart stoppers as I type. For me to come into this thread and say "Just Say No" would make me a hypocrite.
I can see both sides.

Do I believe there is a "crusade" to warn against the possibility of possibly dangerous levels of certain substances in our e juice? hm...um...yep.
Do I care?....yep....to the point of stop vaping my beloved NOM NOM....nope.
Did I smoke?..yep ..did I quit? questionable, I still do hand to mouth, nicotine and blow clouds of a grayish chemical...maybe not.

Do I believe there is a huge FSUSA fan base at this forum and they seem to try and recruit newbies? ...um..hm...yep. Do I tell them stop doing that and let them make up their own mind without the "OH GOD this stuff is wonderful" nope.
So for now, here is my side....."My Side" and I'm just here for the ride for however long it lasts and posting gibberish from time to time. Honestly, the only way disclosure will ever be changed by the people of this forum is if one voice turns into two...blah, blah, blah and almost everyone is on board and quit buying certain vendors juices....does anyone really think that will happen?
Now what is up with the FSUSA juice? is it really that good? I'm looking for Nommy and nothing short. I keep hearing about um....something scotch, sorry can't remember. I love the Karma Scotch from Pure Smoker. Is it anything like that? serious!
If I am out of line as to what this thread was about then sorry but I actually forgot.

 

[Fernand]

Rocky, the topic here was vaping and people. So I think you're safely on topic. I truly envy your insouciance on the flavoring, I miss it. The OP seemed a little worried about it all.

 

[rockyroad]

I do care about it and it does concern me some of the time. Just not the times when I am vaping the luscious stuff. I have cut back on the intake of Nommy and gone to a pure TA, VG, malto smoke juice which is quite good. But the bakery bug still haunts my soul and will not leave me alone.

 

[Fernand]

I've got to mix up some juice now. Rocky, you use Tobacco Absolute and what is "malto"?

I use 40 mg/ml nicotine in a 60/40 pg/vg or 70/30, and in 5 ml juice I usually use 1 40 microliter drop of FA Desert Ship, one of FA Cuban Supreme, one of dense menthol in PG, and 5 microliters of TA (the 50% dilute TA from PA). I sometimes add 1 40 microliter drop of FA "vape wizard", and am looking for something instead, to give a nice accent. I tried a few things without success, like PA honey flavor, it makes it too sweet and bland. Ideas?

The bakery bug? Tell me about it ... I crave butterfingers and waffle with vanilla custard and caramel buttered popcorn and ... Hey, wait a minute, why not just EAT. That's a novel idea. Oh, yeah, fat, waistline, I forgot. Sin. No way out.

I want young girls, and shiny guns,
Sniff buttered popcorn in the sun,
Big burgers, milkshakes and a pie
A margarita with some rye
And don't forget some ciggies too,
And half a tube of airplane glue
A little speedball and some crack
In case I'm sleepy driving back
I want a choice, so I don't lose
That uncontested right to choose

 

[Antwoord]

Ahh pants, I had forgotten that disclosure means almost nothing without real evidence like lab tests. What a cluster. Just when you think people will be cool despite having business interests here comes good ole reality who has always soiled its pants to remind you that most of it stinks. Reality is like a baby, and if there's anyone to blame for the world's problems it's babies. They don't do anything for anyone. They don't even try to get a job or do anything productive at all. They just cry and need things, and they only have about 2 to 14 cents on them at any given time if you're lucky. I don't want to pay a dollar per milliliter, and I want to be able to DIY.

My own 7 Leaves blend with a single drop of vanilla is quite good.

 

[Zelphie]

I think there are "many people" on ECF that would like to express a lot of things without the fanbois coming out of the woodwork to complain about the same tactics that they also do. If it wasn't for Fernand mentioning religion there would be something else to complain about unless the poster is part of "the group" it seems.

When a new member can't even say a negative word about a certain supplier without pages of negative comments on what "she" must have done wrong instead of the supplier something is wrong here. Why are we so divided and fighting with each other? There's so much resentment and division lately and I can't imagine how it will be in the future if it continues like this. We should be supporting each other, the consumers, not the vendors. IMO

@ Edwv30, LOL I was thinking of saying the same thing. Geez, what would happen if we all went to EVERY sub-forum and posted our ALL-KNOWING information on EVERY subject? People might start to get fed up, huh?

LOL..good stuff.

 

[Shan B]

All that stands out in this thread is the comment about FSUSA...

So my friend bought us some, because soooo many people hyped the CRAP out of this stuff. She ordered, got hers, took her a few days to get my end of stuff ready, she sent my part so I'll say it had (IF FRESH from FSUSA) AT LEAST 9 days to steep, so PLENTY of time that it should taste GOOD or not fowl. correct? Okay. So I let mine steep an additional 3 days, 12 days total. Almost 2 weeks. AWESOME!

K, where's the flavor? Do I have to pay 1.00, 2.00 to taste this stuff? And the stuff I do taste WTF does it taste like dead people, wait excuse me, why does something in it make me associate it with a funeral home? Anywho. I'm with MY opinion. FSUSA isn't all that great. I've tasted and made better, sorry to the one's that are paid and given free stuff to talk this one up, but you couldn't pay me enough to do a review on something I DON'T like and would never buy. You want honesty? Find my reviews. (There is 1 out of the many flavors I have that is "decent" - most of them i won't even bother pushing rec for fsusa)

Now as far as all this religion and just flat out crazy xeno talk. Everyone has their own opinion. When someone flames anyone because I've stated my opinion I think a mod should step in and let people know it's "okay" to have ur own opinion, but the point where you flame to obtain more crew or force YOUR opinion is when people should get a vacation. But like anywhere you go some are treated with care, some are held to a different standard, and some get away with murder.

These people who flame because "I" CHOOSE to vape yummy buttery waffley goodness is MY choice, but it should also be required people know what's in their stuff, but again we ALL have secrets. Would I avoid the bad of the bunches? Well, hmm I'd try to find something "healthier" but if my RY4 has diacetyl imma vape the crap outta u honey!!! cuz again, it's my body, my lungs, and to ME it's better than smoking cigs. Vape what you like, avoid what you don't.

To each is their own, I don't judge you, so don't judge me. If you've got something logical to say I'll listen, state my opinion back, but those who try to cram what they feel to be TRUE and CORRECT can KMA.

For example. I live by my NHaler DT. some prefer metal, cool. But for ME it's the best.

Just because I think someone's liquid tastes like death, doesn't mean someone else isn't going to love the vape outta it. I normally avoid threads like this just because, or I avoid making comments on things I don't believe in or find to be true for myself, unless it's a fabricated or a bought/paid lie, then pass! It's really easy to pick the honest people out and the one's that are trying to push a product cuz they were paid or offered goodies in return, and these people doing this are eventually going to get caught, then they can go complain in some other forum how ECF was unfair.

Play by the rules, and this place is WONDERFUL!! I normally just hide in the modders or reviews section... drama is a horrible thing to get caught up in, but some people LIVE for it.

Giving thanks to all the positive people here in ECF, the one's who have stated and even argued there opinions while maintaining TACT, while doing so. << These are the people I love here.

For the one's who feel their opinion is the only one true way, maybe you should live for yourself and let others decide what may or may not be best for them.

Oh and this is MY opinion, so don't crash my cloud k.... thanks

 

[Antwoord]

Just to be clear I was only making fun of myself with the babies thing. I'm going to be one from here on out. I've given up on trying to get people to even try and work on the nuts and bolts of disclosure publicly. I don't have any community clout, and in truth I don't want any. I'd much rather have the option to make a good suggestion, and then disappear and be no one. I have the sneaking suspicion that even doing that would cause more harm than good because people seem to place ten times more importance on their online alter egos than their real ones and using anyone elses idea is sacrilege...especially when it comes from someone like me. Also Fernand, who I think is pretty darn cool, pointed out to me that going by what a vendor says is pretty pointless. I am one stressed out, forgetful person in real life. People like me who either have better things to do, or are slightly light in the head, need repetition in this kind of medium man. I'll probably get called a fanboi for speaking of you positively by either side, it's happened before.

I really have no idea if people are working for FSUSA. I think people react more based on their dignity after so much mud has been slung around. I will never engage in that kind of thinking. I think it is easier just to ignore the derailments and continue with what is more important.

Would I quit vaping if e-cigs were proven to be as harmful as analogs?

I would try. I have found that getting off all the additional stuff in analogs has made it easier for me to go without nicotine. I'm really grateful for that, and I think it's a strong possibility that if I needed to quit nicotine altogether I would be successful because of vaping.

 

[Automaton]

Um. Someone is directly referencing me, talking as though I'm not here, insinuated that I'm a troll, and I'm not allowed to address that or it's "all about me"? Er, ok. I'll pretend that makes some kind of sense. Or do you just have an issue? I've seen this before. That's your own problem, buddy. Not mine. Projecting stuff onto me because whatever "personality" I've taken on isn't to your liking has nothing to do with me.

MistressNomad...why do you turn every post into an "I" or "Me" thing? Has anyone said these responses have anything to do with you? Seriously...can we stay on topic?

-----

Um, wow. Anyone is obviously allowed to like, or not like, any vendor they want for any reason they want. Anyone is allowed to vape, or not vape, anything they want.

But the more I'm seeing this crap the more I'm with Antwoord. Babies. What are they good for.

(jk, jk, jk, jk... )

 

[Fernand]

Please read this, it's a story, not a theory.

The way I got involved in the diacetyl question is I had developed a dry little cough vaping some vanillaey stuff. Then I noticed that the flavoring from the bottle burned my tongue in a weird way. I know you're not supposed to taste it directly, but I had done this in the lab for years, there's a technique (not with cyanide) but don't do this at home! Anyway, I started looking into it, and that's when I started reading up on it, and looking for a way to calculate the concentration upon vaping.

So tonight I ran out of my low flavor vape, started mixing some up, and in the meantime I was shallow puffing, not inhaling, on some delicious waffle pecan caramel zero nicotine stuff. I had been sneaking some like this on occasion, but in this case it went on for a long time, like well over an hour, going on two, as I was working on my mix slowly, and on the phone. I didn't expect what happened, it's not a placebo effect. I started coughing with that same slight dry cough, and not even thinking about it until I stopped dead in my tracks and realized it was happening. Apparently I was inhaling enough of in spite of trying not to? Those of you who take the buttery flavorings subject with a grain of salt and vape those kinds of flavors anyway: be alert, and watch what happens. If you develop that little cough, or a sort of heartburn feeling, maybe stop and think it over.

I didn't see anybody particularly flaming anybody with regard to what they vape, Shan B. I got sort of slammed for allegedly religious patriotic xenophobia, when that wasn't what I was saying, but I'm hardly going to worry about that. It seems there are some very tense issues here that I just don't understand.

 

[Automaton]

Fernand,

Not denying your experience at all. There are plenty of additives in some flavors that people can either be allergic to, and that have (mostly unexplored) effects on ones health. I'm sure diacetyl isn't the only additive that hasn't been explored for its effects on vapers. I bet in 10 years, the composition of e-juice will look very different from what it does now, as we slowly discover these things.

By diacetyl, even at much higher concentrations, doesn't produce symptoms for many years. In fact, by the time you have any symptoms, "popcorn lung" is already extremely advanced. I find that an unlikely cause of your symptoms, given what we know about how diacetyl affects the lungs.

Although many buttery and/or sweet flavors also have many other additives in them, as I said, that could produce symptoms much more rapidly.

 

[Fernand]

Hi, nomad, I have no idea what in these thick flavors affect me this way, but it seems to be only with the butterers. I have not noticed it with all heavy flavored juices. Maybe I'm the canary, and maybe a lot of people just don't pay attention.

What we know of the two diketones is not at all that the damage takes years. The damage observed in rats and mice takes place in a few hours. The irritation is apparently immediate, though the cell destruction advances overnight. Hubbs et al. showed that if you expose animals to acetyl propionyl and examine after 6 hours the damage is there. On the next day the tissue necrosis has progressed without additional exposure. In people we don't know if the severe damage accrues "linearly" at low levels, or is entirely caused by higher peak exposures.

 

[Automaton]

Hi, nomad, I have no idea what in these thick flavors affect me this way, but it seems to be only with the butterers. I have not noticed it with all heavy flavored juices. Maybe I'm the canary, and maybe a lot of people just don't pay attention.

What we know of the two diketones is not at all that the damage takes years. The damage observed in rats and mice takes place in a few hours. The irritation is apparently immediate, though the cell destruction advances overnight. Hubbs et al. showed that if you expose animals to acetyl propionyl and examine after 6 hours the damage is there. On the next day the tissue necrosis has progressed without additional exposure. In people we don't know if the severe damage accrues "linearly" at low levels, or is entirely caused by higher peak exposures.

Yes, but those rats were exposed to level thousands of times higher than even the most diacetyl-filled factory. They were intentionally trying to produce fast results by increasing the dosage dramatically.

In normal conditions, between .02 and 100 ppm (in factories) symptoms took years to appear. And as we know, the levels in e-juice are much lower.

Not to deny the validity of choose to avoid diacetyl, just hypothesizing on the cause.

Many sweet/butter flavors also contain sweeteners that some people react badly too. And our atomizers react badly to them too. This is the reason TV juices are known as "atty killers." They can be quite irritating to the lungs.

I would find that a more likely cause for symptoms that appear in hours, personally.

 

[Fernand]

This isn't to quarrel, but although your points about other flavorings are very well taken, I read the NIOSH study and the levels differently. The levels we're talking about are not as far apart as you seem to think, and that's why i am concerned and trying to lower them as much as possible in my DYI.

It's possible the word "irritant" is not very precise, but it describes a whole range of chemicals in their impact on mucus membranes, and this how i see the action of the diketones, and possibly many other flavorings. Any tissue destruction of course takes time, but the hypothesis of a truly cumulative or gradual indirect effect, as in carcinogenesis, is not established by the results. In animal studies, there were the Hubbs levels, 118, 220 and 340 ppm, and the other study where they tested also at 25, 50 etc. There was some damage at 118, but nothing gross seen at 25 and 50 over a couple of weeks at 8 hours a day, as I recall, though I don't have any of the articles here. That's not to say there were no functional problems.

At the extremely low average plant levels, below 0.2 ppm, "plant D" I think, which some people use to support the notion that there is no practical permissible level of diacetyl, I remember only one case of observable effect. There is no reason to believe that this worker was not ALSO exposed to a high peak level at some point. The high peak level measured on a worker's belt was over 80 ppm. The high estimate I got of vaping diacetyl concentration was 4.3 ppm. This is uncomfortably close to serious exposures. The way I personally interpret the whole picture is that while minor spirometry deviation (shortness of breath) can occur at lower levels, and that's no joke, the overt catastrophic damage in humans like bronchiolitis obliterans is perhaps linked to the same levels as seen in animals, and it's possible that these cases result from a limited number of high level exposures rather than a more mysterious cumulative effect. This in no way diminishes the danger of inhaling diacetyl or acetyl propionyl, on the contrary, it removes it from the category of "maybe someday to someone" toxicity and paints it as a very tangible and probable effect, but it might also fit the observation that people show no obvious signs of toxicity from repeatedly and madly buttering toast ;-)

 

[Automaton]

I'm not sure where you got the 4.3ppm figure from. Even some of the highest diacetyl flavorings are .00-something ppm. And obviously, when diluted into e-juice at 2-10%, that level drops even lower.

I used the imprecise term "irritants" because there are several chemicals that are especially prevalent in sweet/dessert flavors which may contribute. There isn't enough research at this point to pin-point which specific compound it may be.

 

[Edwv30]

Um. Someone is directly referencing me, talking as though I'm not here, insinuated that I'm a troll, and I'm not allowed to address that or it's "all about me"? Er, ok. I'll pretend that makes some kind of sense. Or do you just have an issue? I've seen this before. That's your own problem, buddy. Not mine. Projecting stuff onto me because whatever "personality" I've taken on isn't to your liking has nothing to do with me.

I am not even going to respond to the above.... I asked that we stay on topic.



-----

Um, wow. Anyone is obviously allowed to like, or not like, any vendor they want for any reason they want. Anyone is allowed to vape, or not vape, anything they want.

Absolutely...no one said otherwise. But...those vendors need to disclose the chemicals being used in their product(s) so consumers can make an educated decision.

But the more I'm seeing this crap the more I'm with Antwoord. Babies. What are they good for.

(jk, jk, jk, jk... )

 

[Automaton]

So... you are speaking directly at me on a personal level, and expect me not to respond as such? That's pretty incredible. You do know that's how grammar works, I'm sure? You aim something at me personally, and I must respond to it personally. I don't have a choice. Otherwise my reply doesn't make grammatical sense.

And of course, you use first person nouns just as much in your reply to that paragraph, if word counts were even. And you see no reason why that's a bit ironic, right?

So, yeah, you just have a problem with whatever you perceive me to be, by the warped standards of perception at a distance. Your problem, not mine.

You want to stay on topic, and yet derail it with personal stuff, and then get in a huff when I respond personally?

 

[Edwv30]

Hi, nomad, I have no idea what in these thick flavors affect me this way, but it seems to be only with the butterers. I have not noticed it with all heavy flavored juices. Maybe I'm the canary, and maybe a lot of people just don't pay attention.

This is a great observation...what about other people who may not make that connection? I have seen posts here with concerns about side affects while vaping. The posters are often told that it's common with stopping smoking or worse..."it's all in their head." What if it's not? These are legitimate concerns.

What we know of the two diketones is not at all that the damage takes years. The damage observed in rats and mice takes place in a few hours. The irritation is apparently immediate, though the cell destruction advances overnight. Hubbs et al. showed that if you expose animals to acetyl propionyl and examine after 6 hours the damage is there. On the next day the tissue necrosis has progressed without additional exposure. In people we don't know if the severe damage accrues "linearly" at low levels, or is entirely caused by higher peak exposures.

And this scares me most. This is why we need to get the information out there and demand disclosure. Many people don't know the chemicals used in their juice...or the possible consequence of inhaling them.