All these threads regarding safety and regulations, and my ranting

[Fernand]

If not for FA's stuff, like their Desert Ship and Cuban "tobacco flavors", I don't know how I'd be so happy at less than 2.5% total flavoring! I'm vaping this stuff like an ocean liner boiler, 4 ml so far today and still toking, and I haven't had to even use any nasal decongestants like at higher flavoring levels; it really made a difference when I lowered the flavoring amounts. I was walking down the street tonight and some kids said my pipe really smelled nice. Boy, were they surprised when I showed 'em how it was an electric vaporiser with a (flavored) nicotine solution!

Oh, and BTW, anybody who thinks the "butterer" issue is blown out of proportion should glance at the almost panicked 2007 note from a meeting of the National Toxicology Program where they explain why there is a "high priority" need for more study of Artificial Butter Flavoring components. They explain the widespread and catastrophic effects, the number of deaths, the possible immunosuppressive and carcinoenic effects, and the very disturbing apparent toxicity at doses "well below levels where acute toxicity occurs in animals".

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/Art_Butter_flav_final_Review.pdf

Dr Morgan didn't have too much trouble obtaining the research funding he was campaigning for! When you read this it's hard to imagine that anybody would inhale this stuff on purpose!

 

[Automaton]

Fernand... It seems to me like you will go to any lengths to avoid the POINT of what someone is saying.

I obviously wasn't talking about the types of diseases that ovarian cancer and AIDS are. I was just talking about time frames. That is pretty obvious, as I'm sure you know. Sometimes I'm not sure whether you're not even reading what I'm saying, or if you're just going really out of your way to intentionally mis-understand what I'm saying so as to avoid being challenged by making people re-explain over and over.

I can't really have a conversation with someone who will practically bend over backwards to twist my words in whatever direction is required to make them look "right," no matter the cost, and whether they're right or not.

Fine, Fernand. Every symptom, no matter what it is, is a symptoms of diacetyl poisoning, your juice somehow has hundreds of times more diacetyl in it than any other juice ever made, and diacetyl poisoning can disappear and reappear only for you, even though it is known to be a permanent illness.

Have it your way. Believe whatever you want. Facts, shmacks.

I'm out.

 

[Antwoord]

Right on! I ordered some of the tobacco flavors as well, Maxboro, and Desert Ship. For me I'm perfectly content without butter, nuts, cream, vanilla, cheese, beef, yogurt, coconut, melon, bell peppers, etc. Who needs em?

What are your thoughts on Ethyl lactate?

I may try and translate your acetyl propionyl numbers into more simple terms later. Really emphasize how we get the milligrams out of the rough percentages in grams per milliliter you know.

 

[Fernand]

Nomad, please don't sarcastically dismiss "my juice" as having hundreds of times more diacetyl or AP than any other unless you check the calculation and can show errors. That's doing grave harm by telling people the risk is exaggerated.

I didn't redo the calcs to bore people, but to be sure. You have previously said rats were exposed to artificially elevated levels, thousands of times higher than the 0.2 to 100 ppm in factories. That is simply false. I don't understand your reasons for doing this.

 

[markmcs]

If not for FA's stuff, like their Desert Ship and Cuban "tobacco flavors", I don't know how I'd be so happy at less than 2.5% total flavoring! I'm vaping this stuff like an ocean liner boiler, 4 ml so far today and still toking, and I haven't had to even use any nasal decongestants like at higher flavoring levels; it really made a difference when I lowered the flavoring amounts. I was walking down the street tonight and some kids said my pipe really smelled nice. Boy, were they surprised when I showed 'em how it was an electric vaporiser with a (flavored) nicotine solution!

Oh, and BTW, anybody who thinks the "butterer" issue is blown out of proportion should glance at the almost panicked 2007 note from a meeting of the National Toxicology Program where they explain why there is a "high priority" need for more study of Artificial Butter Flavoring components. They explain the widespread and catastrophic effects, the number of deaths, the possible immunosuppressive and carcinoenic effects, and the very disturbing apparent toxicity at doses "well below levels where acute toxicity occurs in animals".

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/files/Art_Butter_flav_final_Review.pdf

Dr Morgan didn't have too much trouble obtaining the research funding he was campaigning for! When you read this it's hard to imagine that anybody would inhale this stuff on purpose!

The link you posted was a request for funding from the National Toxicology program. It was NOT an alarmed, or panicked appeal. It was a standard funding request. Most likely one of thousands. It did not even mention immunosuppression!!!! It requested funding for long term studies of possible respiratory toxicity and possible carcinogenesis from long term occupational exposure to ABF (artificial butter flavor) to help determine "safe levels" as well as develop appropriate treatments for bronchiolitis obliterans and other afflictions that may be associated with high level exposure. If funding was approved, where is the link to that??

It strikes me as paranoid and hypocritical that people who knowingly, regularly, and intentionally inhaled thousands of poisons by lighting up 30 or 40 times a day for years and years to suddenly cry foul when they find that one of the components of some of the hundreds of e liquid flavorings may be unhealthy to vape!!!

I also don't recall EVER seeing a list of ingredients on my Marlboro's!!! Yes, diacetyl MAY be unhealthy at the levels present in vaping, but the main concern for the scientific community right now is that constant inhalation for 8 or more hours a day of high levels of diacetyl and ABF (like those inhaled at manufacturing and production plants) is causing health problems.

All this ranting and raving about "possible" health issues of vaping small amounts of diacetyl is silly and premature.
Possible solutions are:
1-stop vaping entirely
2-don't vape butter flavors
3-check with vendors before ordering certain flavors
4-alternate flavors to minimize any possible health issues from any ONE flavor
5-RELAX, and worry more about whether vaping will be banned entirely, or require a prescription after being pulled from the market for 5 years!!!

Get a grip people!! Vaping is Harm Reduction, not smokers salvation!! In time, when we are on more solid legal ground, and after more research is completed, changes will inevitably need to be made and health issues will inevitably be found with vaping, but I think we can all agree that the risks are FAR LESS than those of smoking!!!!!!

If you want a risk free alternative....I'll let you in on a little secret....
THERE ISN'T ONE!!!!!

 

[SimpleSins]

It strikes me as paranoid and hypocritical that people who knowingly, regularly, and intentionally inhaled thousands of poisons by lighting up 30 or 40 times a day for years and years to suddenly cry foul when they find that one of the components of some of the hundreds of e liquid flavorings may be unhealthy to vape!!!

Get a grip people!! Vaping is Harm Reduction, not smokers salvation!! In time, when we are on more solid legal ground, and after more research is completed, changes will inevitably need to be made and health issues will inevitably be found with vaping, but I think we can all agree that the risks are FAR LESS than those of smoking!!!!!!

If you want a risk free alternative....I'll let you in on a little secret....
THERE ISN'T ONE!!!!!

I find it hypocritical to state that the industry's unnamed 4000 chemicals is a bad thing, but in an ecig the mystery chemicals is okay. As they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Smokers allowed the tobacco industry to pull the wool over their eyes without realizing the amount of chemicals being put in the cigarettes. So why is it such a surprise that there is a consumer awareness now that some providers don't really have the consumer's best interests in mind with their products?

Diacetyl can cause bronchiolitis obliterans, requiring a transplant, which a vaping/smoker is unlikely to get. Since ecigs did not even make it to American shores until 2007, and since even rudimentary single agent flavorings beyond tobacco did not start getting added to the mix until mid to late 2008, we cannot say they are safe; we cannot really even say we suspect they are safe. The diacetyl, the toxin we known, took a couple of years to do its damage; we haven't been vaping diacetyl long enough to say that we're not going to suffer the same fate.

So right now, all we can do is hope that it's harm reduction, and do what we can to bring the risk to a level that we're comfortable with, and that requires disclosure....not preventing you from inhaling diacetyl and any other of the buttery creamy stuff you want, but so that I don't have to.

BTW, I find amusing the commonality I detect in all the 'you can have my diacetyl when you scrape it off my alveoli' threads.

 

[Fernand]

Harm reduction is not arguing that lots of people die in accidents and just because you don't want to wear a seatbelt you think it's hysterical to discuss the probability of injury from not wearing one. A lot of research has already been done, that's what we're discussing. Read carefully, on page 3 they do say "animal studies ... suggest immunotixicity is a possibility". You can just take your chances and please don't shout.

 

[Panini]

It strikes me as paranoid and hypocritical that people who knowingly, regularly, and intentionally inhaled thousands of poisons by lighting up 30 or 40 times a day for years and years to suddenly cry foul when they find that one of the components of some of the hundreds of e liquid flavorings may be unhealthy to vape!!!

Ha! Ha! You’re right! What are we thinking? I forgot I signed a contract when I started smoking to never again question anything that I might be ingesting or inhaling. Oops.

But just so I’m clear…how many “potentially” unhealthy -- or even lethal -- components must the e-liquid have before we’re allowed to voice a concern?

 

[shanagan]

Ha! Ha! You’re right! What are we thinking? I forgot I signed a contract when I started smoking to never again question anything that I might be ingesting or inhaling. Oops.

But just so I’m clear…how many “potentially” unhealthy -- or even lethal -- components must the e-liquid have before we’re allowed to voice a concern?

Not to mention, who says there isn't a safe alternative? Why do this, act as if ex-smokers made one bad choice and therefore all related choices will also be bad? Most of us agree with the harm-reduction stance that nicotine is roughly equivalent to caffeine in terms of risk. And yet, we're expected to allow for some additional measure of danger. Why? Just because?

 

[markmcs]

I find it hypocritical to state that the industry's unnamed 4000 chemicals is a bad thing, but in an ecig the mystery chemicals is okay. As they say, fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Smokers allowed the tobacco industry to pull the wool over their eyes without realizing the amount of chemicals being put in the cigarettes. So why is it such a surprise that there is a consumer awareness now that some providers don't really have the consumer's best interests in mind with their products?

Diacetyl can cause bronchiolitis obliterans, requiring a transplant, which a vaping/smoker is unlikely to get. Since ecigs did not even make it to American shores until 2007, and since even rudimentary single agent flavorings beyond tobacco did not start getting added to the mix until mid to late 2008, we cannot say they are safe; we cannot really even say we suspect they are safe. The diacetyl, the toxin we known, took a couple of years to do its damage; we haven't been vaping diacetyl long enough to say that we're not going to suffer the same fate.

So right now, all we can do is hope that it's harm reduction, and do what we can to bring the risk to a level that we're comfortable with, and that requires disclosure....not preventing you from inhaling diacetyl and any other of the buttery creamy stuff you want, but so that I don't have to.

BTW, I find amusing the commonality I detect in all the 'you can have my diacetyl when you scrape it off my alveoli' threads.

Ha! Ha! You’re right! What are we thinking? I forgot I signed a contract when I started smoking to never again question anything that I might be ingesting or inhaling. Oops.

But just so I’m clear…how many “potentially” unhealthy -- or even lethal -- components must the e-liquid have before we’re allowed to voice a concern?

I agree that unhealthy chemicals shouldn't be in eliquids, but threads like are a bit much!!! Concern is good....alarmist ranting is counterproductive!! Assuming that "any" diacetyl is harmful, you can check with vendors, order only flavors you are sure about, or stop vaping. This issue will NOT be resolved next week, so the choice is yours! Threads like this smack of "Conspiracy" and "Paranoia" and once that happens....NO ONE will hear you!!!

 

[Edwv30]

All this ranting and raving about "possible" health issues of vaping small amounts of diacetyl is silly and premature.
Possible solutions are:
1-stop vaping entirely Please stop telling other people to stop vaping when we are concerned about Diacetyl. We can vape without inhaling Diacetyl...if there is disclosure.
2-don't vape butter flavors Okay...the supplier still needs to disclose the ingredients used in their butter flavors...remember we are demanding disclosure for all consumers not only those who are aware of the dangers of inhaling Diacetyl
3-check with vendors before ordering certain flavorsVendors aren't always forthcoming with the ingredients used in their juices. The supplier in your banner told a member that diacetyl isn't being used when ,in fact, it is...in many of their juices. We don't know which juices because this particular vendor refuses to disclose the information.
4-alternate flavors to minimize any possible health issues from any ONE flavor This isn't an option....for all we know inhaling Diacetyl once can damage lung tissue. The fact is we don't know WHAT exposure, (if any), is safe.
5-RELAX, and worry more about whether vaping will be banned entirely, or require a prescription after being pulled from the market for 5 years!!!Banning WILL become a reality if things continue as they are. Suppliers need to self regulate and disclose the chemicals being used in their product.

Get a grip people!! Vaping is Harm Reduction, not smokers salvation!! In time, when we are on more solid legal ground, and after more research is completed, changes will inevitably need to be made and health issues will inevitably be found with vaping, but I think we can all agree that the risks are FAR LESS than those of smoking!!!!!!
We are trying to get a grip...that is the whole point of demanding disclosure. We do not want to wait until things get unto "more solid ground" as that may be too late. Again, we do not know what amount of exposure to Diacetyl is enough to cause damage\death. Many of us do not want to inhale any amount and that is our right. We can not do this if there is no disclosure.

If you want a risk free alternative....I'll let you in on a little secret....
THERE ISN'T ONE!!!!!

Maybe...maybe not. But...we know that some of the chemicals being used are dangerous. We CAN control what we inhale if we know what's being used. Again...disclosure.

 

[markmcs]

Not to mention, who says there isn't a safe alternative? Why do this, act as if ex-smokers made one bad choice and therefore all related choices will also be bad? Most of us agree with the harm-reduction stance that nicotine is roughly equivalent to caffeine in terms of risk. And yet, we're expected to allow for some additional measure of danger. Why? Just because?

If you know of a way to mimick smoking that provides nicotine delivery and satisfies my hand to mouth and smoke inhalation addiction WITHOUT creating ANY risk......PLEASE....tell us!!!!! I for one have no idea what you are referring to!!!

 

[Fernand]

There are lots of separate issues and agendas. After reviewing what has been published, mine was knowing if i might approach known toxic levels in a strongly flavored e-liquid. The math shows too close for (my) comfort. My reaction is to vape very lightly flavored e-liquid and avoid the buttery flavors entirely. End of story. The reason this thread exists is because people argue about details as a form of entertainment. There's no conspiracy.

 

[markmcs]

EDvw30- you mentioned that the vendor in my signature lied about using diacetyl. Can you direct me to the testing that was done, or post the lab results for us? Is flavourart the culprit, or does FS add it themselves? You can't just strike out blindly. I also think that most vapers feel much better than when they smoked, so it's probably better to vape than smoke. If you want to avoid any risk, it might be better just not to do anything at all. I don't think anyone can realistically expect a rash of "VAPING DEATHS" anytime soon! I just feel the alarmists need to temper their concern...not stifle it. right now this is 'much ado about nothing'!!!

 

[brandon555]

I didn't ask for a comparison of "2 evils". Its not Vaping vs Smoking. I am asking if people genuinely care for their health. You answered no, in a longer way.

I am going to vape until I feel I can go without it again, which will be a few weeksor months. But I will quit again. At least it is not analogs this time.


All we can do is hope that when proper tests are conducted, and we know all the facts and have definitive answers, all the results will lead us to the conclusion that vaping is NOT bad for you.


Don't get me wrong, I have relatives who have lived past 90, some past 100, smoking 1-2 packs a day. One relative smoked till she was 114. But they are all on my moms side of the family. My dads side blessed us all with the promise that we are all going to get cancer and/or another chronic disease.

Sounds like you can't give anything up completely. Why should people quit vaping?

 

[GoodDog]

Mark, in the past when this issue has been brought up it was quickly swept under the rug and the vendors just went about their business as usual. By continually talking about it gives more people the opportunity to decide for themselves what vendors they want to give their money to. If we stop talking about it what do you think will happen... nothing, once again. Many of us want to know not just the members posting here.

 

[Edwv30]

If concerns about irreversible lung damage and death is paranoia then fine....I am paranoid. If trying to expose a dangerous chemical that thousands of people are inhaling daily is a conspiracy... I am guilty of pushing conspiracies. I guess the bigger question is...what is motivating others who are fighting so hard against disclosure? Why is information such a bad thing when it could possibly save lives?

 

[brandon555]

Exactly. I felt poisoned after a cig. Vaping is like bypassing all the BS and getting straight to the point. The point being nicotine... the the we all need and want. I feel great after vaping nine months. More energy, no more anxiety.

 

[GoodDog]

Mark, here's the link in case you haven't read it. http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/freedom-smoke-usa/128437-please-remove-diacetyl-your-liquids.html

 

[Edwv30]

EDvw30- you mentioned that the vendor in my signature lied about using diacetyl. Can you direct me to the testing that was done, or post the lab results for us? Is flavourart the culprit, or does FS add it themselves? You can't just strike out blindly. I also think that most vapers feel much better than when they smoked, so it's probably better to vape than smoke. If you want to avoid any risk, it might be better just not to do anything at all. I don't think anyone can realistically expect a rash of "VAPING DEATHS" anytime soon! I just feel the alarmists need to temper their concern...not stifle it. right now this is 'much ado about nothing'!!!

I never said they "lied." They denied that Diacetyl was being used in their juices when it was. Did they lie? I don't know but they certainly didn't tell the truth. The truth only came out when another member discovered they use FA in their juices. The supplier still refused to disclose which juices contained the FA flavors and downplayed the dangers of Diacetyl.

It would be great if they had test results on their juices...all suppliers should. And asking about FA using Diacetyl versus FSUSA using FA is wordplay. FA clearly states that Diacetyl is used in some of their flavorings. Any vendor using their flavorings should know this, especially since it's posted on the front page of their website.